[Fis] [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
Bruno Marchal
marchal at ulb.ac.be
Fri Jan 27 18:39:21 CET 2017
Thank you Andrew. I will take a look. My approach has been purely
mathematical, and the only "experience" are tought experiment, based
on the idea that consciousness is an invariant for some digital
transformation or recursive permutation. But since them, I confess I
use salvia divinorum to test some idea. I like also to compare the
"machine's theology" with the ideas of the neopythagoreans of the
first century and the neoplatonists, from the third to sixth + some
shy more recent attempts.
Best,
Bruno
On 27 Jan 2017, at 09:05, Andrew Fingelkurts / BM-Science wrote:
> Dear Bruno,
>
> Thank you very much indeed for this intriguing mathematical analysis
> of God. You have touched the aspect of Self in you comment. In
> relation to it I would like to share our paper where the Selfhood
> was studied on the group of experienced meditators: http://www.bm-science.com/team/art87_in-press.pdf
>
> Greetings,
> A&A
>
> From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Bruno
> Marchal
> Sent: Thursday, 26 January, 2017 19:54
> To: Andrew Fingelkurts / BM-Science
> Cc: 'Jeremy Dunning-Davies'; contact at howgravityworks.org; squash at gotsky.com
> ; 'fis'; 'Diego Lucio Rapoport'; 'Brian J Ford'; Online_Sadhu_Sanga at googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Fis] [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
>
> Dear Andrew,
>
> On 26 Jan 2017, at 10:22, Andrew Fingelkurts / BM-Science wrote:
>
>
> Dear Diego,
>
> Thank you very much for your thoughtful comments. We are not
> mathematicians neither physicists, therefore some advanced concepts
> are not easy to follow, but we will try to look at your work in
> relation to your comments :)
>
> In the end of your message you have referred to the dilemma of God…
> It sounds similar to our paper: “Is our brain hardwired to produce
> God or is our brain hardwired to perceive God? A systematic review
> on the role of the brain in mediating religious experience.” This
> paper is outside the physics domain and also does not touch
> explicitly ‘information’, - it discusses the empirical evidence
> about the neural constituents of religious experience and analyse it
> critically. For those who might be interested, please have a look
> here: http://www.bm-science.com/team/art56.pdf
>
>
>
> Very interesting paper. Is God invented or discovered? Usually that
> question is asked for mathematical notions.
>
> If we assume Computationalism (Digital Mechanism), the religious
> experience is when a universal number or digital machine discovers
> that truth extends its own reason ability. Gödel's second
> incompleteness theorem, with f = "false", and [] = Gödel's bewesibar
> predicate, and "~" the negation, is that the formula ~[]f -> ~[]
> (~[]f) is true *about* self-referentially correct (or just
> consistent) system, and that is remarkable, but, as Gödel claimed
> already (and was proved later by Hilbert & Bernays) the remarkable
> fact is that such system, if rich enough to "believe" in the
> induction axioms, can prove its own Gödel's theorem, and develop
> what looks like an intuition and a learning ability with respect to
> the truth extending its justifiability spectrum, like when we
> believe in Universe(s) or God(s). For machine, there is a corona of
> true but non justifiable by reason alone, extending reason. I call
> it now the surrational, as it extends the provable with the true but
> non provable assertions.
>
> In fact, incompleteness re-introduces the Theaetetus' nuances
> between truth, belief ([]p) and knowledge ([]p & p), and if we
> define the soul by the first person knower, we get the material
> nuances as well, making the theology of the self-referentially
> correct machine testable, by comparing its constraints with the
> empirical apparent constraints, which I did, actually.
> Those theologies are closer to Parmenides, Plato, Moderatus of
> Gades, and the Neoplatonists (Plotinus, Proclus, ...) than to
> Aristotle. Yet it follows logically from assuming only that
> consciousness (the zeroth mystical state) is invariant for some
> recursive permutation. The incompleteness divides all points of view
> into the rationally communicable and the non rationally communicable
> one. Only for the Soul such division does not occur. For the
> material views, this leads, arguably, to the splitting between
> quanta and qualia.
>
> Machines have a very interesting canonical theology, in the Plato
> sense where the divine is extensional to the truth. The machines,
> like Peano Arithmetic; or Zermelo-Fraenkel Set Theory, already know
> that their soul is *not* a machine. For them, experiencing truth is
> true but neither definable still less provable. Experiencing
> consistency is definable, but not provable, but somehow testable
> locally.
>
> Best,
>
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Greetings,
> A&A
>
> From: Diego Lucio Rapoport [mailto:diego.rapoport at gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, 25 January, 2017 04:38
> To: Andrew Fingelkurts / BM-Science
> Cc: Online_Sadhu_Sanga at googlegroups.com; squash at gotsky.com; Jeremy
> Dunning-Davies; fis; Brian J Ford; contact at howgravityworks.org
> Subject: Re: [Fis] [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
>
> Dear Andrew and Alexander
> Thank you dearly for your most striking comment that the transition
> of non-linear thermodynamical systems from exploding entropy to a
> reorganization of the system
> through negative entropy as per my work is the case of the brain as
> per your work following Freeman's tradition. (You even wrote it
> almost identically to my own presentation!)
> Allow me to suggest however, that rather than a nested hierarchy
> (say a Matrushka) as already suggested by Freeman, which is an
> iterated dual logophysics,
> the case is of an hyperKlein Bottle which is non-dual and
> heterarchical, rather than hierarchical (or, in other terms, both),
> as discussed in my work retaking MacCulloch's 1945 work.
> The neural networks that Freeman considered as producing the nested
> hierarchy may well be non-orientable (Mobius strip ) as discussed
> also in my work, being the case that the topographic
> maps of vision and somatosensory systems have the Klein Bottle
> topology, as is also the case of genomes.
> I look forward to study your works and return to you.
> By the way, this non-dual logophysics which integrates Outside and
> Inside -as is the Klein Bottle- seems to be the natural one
> regarding the issue whether
> God(s) produces our bodies as to cognize him (her) and organize our
> lives or we produce God(s).
> Best and kind regards,
>
> Diego Rapoport
>
> PS Does the dimensional reduction of the olfactory phenomenology to
> the single radial "spherical" dimension at the olfactory bulb
> indicates a projective geometry with antipodal points identified, as
> retaken by Freeman from earlier research?
> Would that be indeed the case, then finite sections of the bulb
> would be Mobius strips :-) (!!)
>
> 2017-01-24 7:24 GMT-03:00 Andrew Fingelkurts / BM-Science <andrew.fingelkurts at bm-science.com
> >:
>
> Dear All,
>
> In relation to the below mentioned “any non-linear thermodynamical
> system actually increases to develop a singularity which is followed
> by the reorganization of the system through negative entropy,
> following the destruction of the system in its previous form” we
> would like to comment that exactly the same principle is observed in
> the nested hierarchy of the brain electromagnetic field that
> supports the nested hierarchy of mentality and consciousness in
> particular (for a complete description and discussion, please see http://www.bm-science.com/team/art76.pdf)
>
> Greetings,
> Andrew and Alexander
>
>
> From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Diego
> Lucio Rapoport
> Sent: Monday, 23 January, 2017 05:28
> To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga at googlegroups.com; squash at gotsky.com; Jeremy
> Dunning-Davies
> Cc: fis; bjford at sciences.demon.co.uk; contact at howgravityworks.org
> Subject: Re: [Fis] [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
>
> Dear Colleagues
>
> Returning to the issue discussed by Dr Rich Norman of the validity
> of the second law of thermodynamics in relation to biology where
> negative entropy drives
> systems to self-organize, I would like to comment that any non-
> linear thermodynamical system actually increases to develop a
> singularity which is followed
> by the reorganization of the system through negative entropy,
> following the destruction of the system in its previous form.
>
> This is related to the non-orientability -say Mobius strip- of the
> compactified complex number system as discussed in
> https://www.academia.edu/30485983/Klein_Bottle_Logophysics_Self-reference_Heterarchies_Genomic_Topologies_Harmonics_and_Evolution._Part_I_Morphomechanics_Space_and_Time_in_Biology_and_Physics_Cognition_Non-Linearity_and_the_Structure_of_Uncertainty
>
> and the implications to chemistry, biology, cognition,
> metamathematics, genomics and evolution are discussed in
>
> https://www.academia.edu/30546256/Klein_Bottle_Logophysics_Self-reference_Heterarchies_Genomic_Topologies_Harmonics_and_Evolution._Part_II_Non-orientability_Cognition_Chemical_Topology_and_Eversions_in_Nature
>
> https://www.academia.edu/30518156/Klein_Bottle_Logophysics_Self-reference_Heterarchies_Genomic_Topologies_Harmonics_and_Evolution._Part_III_The_Klein_Bottle_Logic_of_Genomics_and_its_Dynamics_Quantum_Information_Complexity_and_Palindromic_Repeats_in_Evolution
>
> Best regards
>
> Diego Rapoport
>
>
>
>
> w). Thank you for starting this topic, Dr. Ford. Your piece is
> correct by my estimation, and fits quite exactly with many
> statements in our new book. [Are you familiar with Bechamp?…that
> chalk sir! You may request a paper which makes tangible use of
> physics within cell biology. Those were stunning images in your
> paper.] There is a great deal of this rot in physics and
> cosmology. Before I begin a new thread concerning causality, I must
> add my sad approval to the exhausted refrain below, which did not
> offend me in any way. The situation in my broken country and the
> world inspires such painful honesty. I will put a link to a paper
> concerning gravitation which is in keeping, added below the
> following comment by Eric Sabo, and then a possible explanation.
>
> “At CERN and Fermilab, no two collisions are exactly the same.
> Their efforts are a waste of time as any particles they create only
> last nanoseconds and then they "evaporate".
>
> The really odd thing is not one physicist at those facilities ever
> ask "Where did they evaporate to?"...
> (The only logical answer is, back to the Aether.) It's just a jobs
> program for physicists.
>
> What's really odd is they pat themselves on the backs and hand out
> Nobel Prizes for their efforts.
> I see the real benefit of those projects is that it's all good
> magnet R&D...... (For future Antimatter Containment)
>
> . . . .Residing in the urban environment give me the impression that
> the stupid people have propagated out of control.
> And, every one of them has the right to exist..... and vote!.......
> (There's no hope for Humanity.)”
>
> You sir, are right! https://www.researchgate.net/publication/310845151_Practical_and_theoretical_assessment_of_relativistic_theory_v_2?ev=prf_pub
>
> I have just completed a book detailing a great deal of this kind of
> thing. A LONG book, gentlemen! Science hype, and deception. Just
> look at all that overstatement and deception. Have you read the
> papers debunking LIGO? Here is our new book Beyond the Veil:
> Deception, truth and the hidden promise of science.
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Veil-Deception-Thoughts-Conventional/dp/1541117409/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1483385806&sr=1-1
>
> Here is a new thought for you:
>
> Does the second law of thermodynamics imply by necessity the social
> turbulence we see all around us? The answer is no, entropy increase
> itself does not imply social discord as a necessary consequence.
> Biological life is itself an expression of negative entropy, an
> exporting of entropy in order to sustain itself and its organized
> processes. The biology should by multiplicative extension increase
> negative entropy through numerical increase.
>
> I will speculate to explain the effects witnessed: The effect we
> see, the social horror then, I will hypothesize is a function of the
> lack of emergent intelligence from the new larger system. Instead
> of a healthy intra-connected single human system, as analogously in
> the case of a mat of bacteria relating to its cohabited environment,
> the connection between the microorganisms fostering a cooperative
> intelligence to emerge which guides proliferation and development, a
> function terminated with interrupted intra-connectivity, our race is
> set against itself, the single system broken apart, our unconscious
> connectivity in my estimation has been shut off: we compete at every
> turn, and our mental topography has removed the inner means to
> support the healthy effect! I believe, the paper linked below
> contains the answer. To have altered the aspects in this document,
> has changed my ‘luck.’ My entire world seems effortless and on
> track. I believe, the loss of identifications with the world and
> our fellow humans is the cause of the discord. Theoretically, as a
> mat of bacteria, we should operate in cooperative mutual adjustment
> with the other organisms which share our environment…I hypothesize:
> but for this.
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309566203_Super-ego_and_the_neuroscience_of_empathy_from_unconscious_wish_to_manifest_behavior--a_new_human_model
>
>
> Thank you for all this new thinking. The recent email from John
> Kineman was simply excellent. I will begin a thread later on
> related topics.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Rich Norman
> Journal of Unconscious Psychology
> www.mindmagazine.net
> http://squa62.wix.com/future-life-net
> On Jan 11, 2017, at 7:42 AM, Prof. Brian J Ford <bjford at sciences.demon.co.uk
> > wrote:
>
>
> The extraordinary hyperbole surrounding theoretical physics and
> cosmology is disproportionate in comparison with sciences with which
> people should be familiar; I have addressed this in a shortly
> published article (attached, and in confidence).
>
> There are strong resonances with the mythical world of Jonathan
> Swift in all this.
>
> On the safety of nuclear explosions, although the atomic bomb's
> capacity for destruction was less than some had predicted, bear in
> mind (as I have discussed in a recent book) that the Little Boy bomb
> dropped on Hiroshima contained 59 kg U235, of which only 600 mg was
> released as thermal energy. Had it all been converted, as some were
> anticipating, it would have been 100,000 times as powerful.
>
> Best wishes
> Brian J Ford
> Cambridge UK
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: contact at howgravityworks.org
> To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga at googlegroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 11:06 AM
> Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The False Elephant and the False Ego
>
> My apologies if I have offended anyone. It's just sometimes I think
> that I am really tired of everything.
> (Especially the recent US election.)
> Thank you again.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The False Elephant and the False Ego
> From: "'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M.
> Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sadhu_Sanga at googlegroups.com>
> Date: Mon, January 09, 2017 6:25 am
> To: "Online_Sadhu_Sanga at googlegroups.com"
> <Online_Sadhu_Sanga at googlegroups.com>
>
> Thank you, Eric for your intelligent if brutal honesty.
>
> Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
> BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE – of Spiritual Culture & Science
>
> BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE – of Spiritual Culture & Science
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook
>
> <facebook.png>
> Security Check Required
>
>
>
> From: "contact at howgravityworks.org" <contact at howgravityworks.org>
> To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga at googlegroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 5:01 AM
> Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The False Elephant and the False Ego
>
> Good answer. What really disturbs me is the ability of the
> individual to construct a reality for themselves
> that is based in no factual evidence at all. What's even more
> disturbing is the will of some to impose their
> reality on others even though the imposer knows that the reality
> they are imposing is false.
>
> An ignorant or illiterate can also create a false reality and impose
> it on others if they have a strong enough
> personality and that is even more disturbing. Perhaps that is the
> true reason for Sharia Law to exist.
> It would appear to be a unifying set of rules that unites and
> controls an otherwise barbaric and chaotic
> mass of ignorant people that would be without discipline without it.
>
> My reality is the universe is dynamical chaos that manages to fall
> within parameter. For example;
> All Oak trees are Oaks yet, no two are ever the exactly same. No two
> Vidalia onions are exactly the same.
> No two stars are exactly the same. At CERN and Fermilab, no two
> collisions are exactly the same.
> Their efforts are a waste of time as any particles they create only
> last nanoseconds and then they "evaporate".
>
> The really odd thing is not one physicist at those facilities ever
> ask "Where did they evaporate to?"...
> (The only logical answer is, back to the Aether.) It's just a jobs
> program for physicists.
>
> What's really odd is they pat themselves on the backs and hand out
> Nobel Prizes for their efforts.
> I see the real benefit of those projects is that it's all good
> magnet R&D...... (For future Antimatter Containment)
>
> We probably shouldn't be upset about anything. Sometimes I consider
> that I am the only entity in existence
> and that everything and everyone in my reality is a construct for my
> amusement. (Or torture lately..... LOL)
> (You can't enjoy the good times without a little bad.)
>
> Residing in the urban environment give me the impression that the
> stupid people have propagated out of control.
> And, every one of them has the right to exist..... and vote!.......
> (There's no hope for Humanity.)
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The False Elephant and the False Ego
> From: "'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M.
> Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sadhu_Sanga at googlegroups.com>
> Date: Fri, January 06, 2017 9:18 am
> To: Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sadhu_sanga at googlegroups.com>
>
> On Jan 4 2017 contact at howgravityworks.org wrote:
>
>
> > "The reality we accept is a human construct.”(Deepak Chopra)
>
> >I have observed that people do indeed create their own reality.
> Some even are able to alter >others reality by their mere physical
> presence. The problem I have with all of it is, all >their realities
> would seem to be false.
>
>
>
> REPLY
>
> This seems to be as concise an assessment of the situation as any
> already presented.
>
> It is reasonable to say that individuals may have different
> interpretations of reality, but in itself Reality is not simply a
> matter of being a human construct or there would be no meaning to
> 'error,' 'mistake,' 'illusion,' and so on. Indeed there would be no
> meaning to 'truth' as opposed to untruth.
>
> Human consciousness is limited to its body. An individual is
> conscious o
> nly to the limits of its skin or surface. One may see a tree, or a
> star, or a bat - but that same individual cannot know or be
> conscious of what it is like to be a bat, as one recent American
> philosopher, Thomas Nagel, famously announced in The Philosophical
> Review in October 1974.
>
> A human being has direct consciousness of its body and of its
> thoughts, but beyond that it has only representations (signs),
> images, or reflections (on the mind's mirror) of the world outside
> its body. Human consciousness is therefore NOT the consciousness of
> trees, stars, bats, or anything else. It is conscious of other
> things beyond its
> body, but not the consciousness of those things.
>
>
> However, there is a consciousness of both individual human
> consciousness and the other things/persons of which an individual
> may be conscious. That universal consciousness is not only the
> consciousness of all Reality but also the consciousness of itself,
> i.e. it is self-consciousness in and for Itself. This universal self-
> consciousness is identical with itself as Reality, since Reality is
> the manifestation or expression of itself as real (being-for-other,
> or Otherness), while not losing its being-for-itself or self-
> consciousness as its ideality or Self-Concept. Here we find the true
> dynamic meaning of Advaita (non-duality), or the negation of dvaita
> (duality). Reality as the Otherness of Universal Self-consciousness
> is simultaneously Other (different from) yet identical (same as)
> universal Self consciousness being the manifest determinateness of
> what Self-consciousness is.
>
> To strip Universal Self-consciousness of its Reality is to abstract
> consciousness from its concrete Truth as Self-consciousness of
> Itself. In other words, it is to end up with a one-sided mental
> abstraction from the concrete or whole truth. There are two mistakes
> here: 1. not only is Universal Self-consciousness abstracted from
> Its own Reality, but 2. Self-consciousness is naievly reduced to
> consciousness which lacks the integral unity essential to it (the
> Self or true Ego) - what Kant called the unity of apperception.
>
> These mistakes are the result of relying on contingent irrational
> intuitions (instincts) without proper philosophical study or
> knowledge of the logical necessity that governs the internal
> rationality of all thought sequences or movement. Philosophers of
> Spirit have studied and reached rational conclusions on the nature
> of consciousness and its ground in Spirit. Those who ignore that
> body of knowledge are illiterate and can only be victimized by their
> own conditioned instincts. That is not how human knowledge or
> science advances.
>
> When an image is reflected in a mirror, the image is not considered
> to be the result of glass and silver of the mirror somehow acting to
> create the image. The image has its orgin outside of the mirror and
> is made of completely different stuff. A tree reflected in a lake is
> not made of water. A radio playing back a broadcast it has received
> is not producing the broadcast from itself. Each of these examples
> provide metaphors for how to understand the difference between a
> reality outside of human consciousness can be reflected within an
> individual's consciousness without being the product of that
> consciousness.
>
> At the same time Reality is not fixed in stone; it is not an inert
> slab or impersonal substance. It does not exist only as a reflection
> within human consciousness, nor as a product of human consciousness.
> Such ideas do not pass the examination of rational thought. The idea
> that Reality is Self-conscious Thinking Being in and for itself
> [Spirit/God] does not suffer that defect. An individual is a finite
> moment or instantiation of Living Reality that reflects that Reality
> immanently within its infinitesimal self and can interpret or
> misinterpret it according to the extent of its knowledge and wisdom.
>
> Sincerely,
> Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
> http://bviscs.org
>
> BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE – of Spiritual Culture & Science
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook
>
>
> ========================
> Original message appears in Sadhu sanga digest for Jan 3 - 4
>
> contact (contact at howgravityworks.org) Jan 4
>
>
> "The reality we accept is a human construct.”(Deepak Chopra)
>
> I have observed that people do indeed create their own reality. Some
> even are able to alter others reality by their mere physical
> presence. The problem I have with all of it is, all their realities
> would seem to be false.
>
> Being an electrical contractor my entire working life, I have
> observed the following scenario; I am working in a large commercial
> building with a thousand people sitting in cubicles with phones and
> computers.
> There's everyone from CEO to janitor working there also.
>
> Suddenly, "Boom" the electricity for the entire building goes out.
> Until I can rush to the main distribution switchgear and restore
> power, they all become totally useless.
>
> If the power went out permanently, they would all be sitting around
> candles chanting "Nam myoho renge kyo".
>
> It's actually a frightening scenario to me. Some say, "Who would
> want to live without electricity."
> --
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