[Fis] Fw: A Curious Story
Otto E. Rossler
oeross00 at yahoo.com
Thu Jan 12 12:58:02 CET 2017
Dear Joseph:
Quote: "It is no longer valid to say that electrons are dimensionless points; experiments now establish a radius of the order of 10 to the -22 meters. If they are 'point-shaped' in the sense of being effectively spherically symmetrical, their putative fate as black holes seems irrelevant."
What I meant is: They would be uncharged. Hence they cannot be point-shaped.
So I see no dissensus between us.
Thank you,Otto
From: Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>
To: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 11:03 AM
Subject: [Fis] Fw: A Curious Story
Dear All, I am sorry but I am still not satisfied with the evolution of this discussion to date. I am still looking forward to some explicit comment on my initial question of why mini black holes would not evaporate. I note that both Alex and Bruno asked the same question, before we have seen Gyorgy's comment. I can confirm from my own small experience as an organic chemist that entities can be created in the laboratory that not only do not exist in nature but could not be produced by 'Nature' on its own. The reactants, reaction vessels, temperatures and pressures to produce certain fluorochemicals and fluoropolymers could not be brought together in the same place and time without human intervention. In contrast, I see nothing in the discussion here of mini black holes that, first, suggests they could be the consequence of intentionally prepared states, with large energies 'brought together' in such a way that, second, their development would not follow known paths. I do not claim that I could follow the detailed mathematical physics of the demonstration of the existence of a "5% probability" that such states would not evaporate. But I and probably others of you much better could still follow a scientific discourse on the basis of some background and internal structure. For example, the following statement from one of Otto's notes seems to me to be a non sequitur: "If black holes are always uncharged, electrons cannot be point-shaped as is usually assumed because they would then be black holes and hence uncharged. They are bound to have a finite diameter large enough to prevent them from becoming black holes and hence be uncharged." It is no longer valid to say that electrons are dimensionless points; experiments now establish a radius of the order of 10 to the -22 meters. If they are 'point-shaped' in the sense of being effectively spherically symmetrical, their putative fate as black holes seems irrelevant. Would it still be possible to see some such new statements regarding both formation and evolution of mini black holes? The reference article (Szilamandee) simply repeats the statements we have seen, albeit in an interesting poetic context. Thank you. Joseph ----- Original Message ----- From: Otto E. Rossler To: Gyorgy Darvas ; fis Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 10:49 PMSubject: Re: [Fis] A Curious Story
https://www.researchgate.net/search.Search.html?type=publication&query=szilamandee
From: Otto E. Rossler <oeross00 at yahoo.com>
To: Gyorgy Darvas <darvasg at iif.hu>; fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Cc: Louis H Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com>; Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] A Curious Story
I conform with Geörgyi's tale.
From: Gyorgy Darvas <darvasg at iif.hu>
To: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Cc: Otto E. Rossler <oeross00 at yahoo.com>; Louis H Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com>; Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] A Curious Story
Dear All,I follow O. Rössler's concerns for a few years.As a physicist (who is probably not the best specialist in the black hole physics), I do not want to involve in detailed physical explanations and mathematical proofs for information specialists, not certainly specialised in physics.
According to me, there is a misunderstanding that makes the story curious.Stellar black holes are a result of a gravitational collapse. That collapse takes place, when the mass of the star exceeds a critical value; it is a result of the locally high gravitational field. that gravitational field is stronger than the electromagnetic field that (in a very simplified picture) keeps the electrons revolve in a distance around the nucleus.
In the course of that gravitational collapse the electron shells of the atoms fall in the nucleus. The properties of the black holes are defined for them. The star becomes very small in size, but has a strong gravitational field, and behaves like described in the bh literature.
Cause: high gravity; effect: collapse, emergence of a bh.
One can produce single atom collapse in extreme laboratory circumstances. Why not? However, that single (or few) atom collapse will not produce a gravitational field exceeding the critical value; since its mass is much less than the critical. The reason is that it was "created" not by a self-generated gravitational collapse. Therefore, it will not "eat" matter in its environment. According to the lack of distance between the nucleus and electron shell(s) around it, these "atoms" (sic!) are called mini-black-holes. However, they do not behave like the stellar black holes over the critical mass. The name is only an analogy, marked by the prefix "mini-".
Cause: not high gravity; effect: no critical mass, no more attraction of other masses around it than before its collapse.
Regards,
Gyuri
On 2017.01.11. 11:33, Otto E. Rossler wrote:
I like this response from Lou, Otto
From: Louis H Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com>
To: Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>
Cc: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] A Curious Story
Dear Folks, It is very important to not be hasty and assume that the warning Professor Rossler made is to be taken seriously. It is relatively easy to check if a mathematical reasoning is true or false. It is much more difficult to see if a piece of mathematics is correctly alligned to physical prediction. Note also that a reaction such as "THIS STORY IS A GOOD REASON FOR SHUTTING DOWN CERN PERMANENTLY AND SAVING A LOT OF LARGELY WASTED MONEY.”. Is not in the form of scientific rational discussion, but rather in the form of taking a given conclusion for granted and using it to support another opinion that is just that - an opinion.
By concatenating such behaviors we arrive at the present political state of the world.
This is why, in my letter, I have asked for an honest discussion of the possible validity of Professor Rossler’s arguments.
At this point I run out of commentary room for this week and I shall read and look forward to making further comments next week. Best, Lou Kauffman
On Jan 9, 2017, at 7:17 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es> wrote:
From Alex Hankey -------- Mensaje reenviado --------
| Asunto: | Re: [Fis] A Curious Story |
| Fecha: | Sun, 8 Jan 2017 19:55:55 +0530 |
| De: | Alex Hankey <alexhankey at gmail.com> |
| Para: | PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es> |
THIS STORY IS A GOOD REASON FOR SHUTTING DOWN CERN PERMANENTLY AND SAVING A LOT OF LARGELY WASTED MONEY.
On 5 January 2017 at 16:36, PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es> wrote:
Dear FISers,
Herewith the Lecture inaugurating our 2017 sessions. I really hope that this Curious Story is just that, a curiosity. But in science we should not look for hopes but for arguments and counter-arguments...
Best wishes to All and exciting times for the New Year! --Pedro
De: Otto E. Rossler [oeross00 at yahoo.com]
Enviado el: miércoles, 04 de enero de 2017 17:51
Para: PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ
Asunto: NY session
----------------------
A Curious Story Otto E. Rossler, University of Tübingen, Germany
Maybe I am the only one who finds it curious. Which fact would then make it even more curious for me. It goes like this: Someone says “I can save your house from a time bomb planted into the basement” and you respond by saying “I don’t care.” This curious story is taken from the Buddhist bible. It of course depends on who is offering to help. It could be a lunatic person claiming that he alone can save the planet from a time-bomb about to be planted into it. In that case, there would be no reason to worry. On the other hand, it could also be that you, the manager, are a bit high at the moment so that you don't fully appreciate the offer made to you. How serious is my offer herewith made to you today? I only say that for eight years' time already, there exists no counter-proof in the literature to my at first highly publicized proof of danger. I was able to demonstrate that the miniature black holes officially attempted to be produced at CERN do possess two radically new properties:
- they cannot Hawking evaporate
- they grow exponentially inside matter
If these two findings hold water, the current attempt at producing ultra-slow miniature black holes on earth near the town of Geneva means that the slower-most specimen will get stuck inside earth and grow there exponentially to turn the planet into a 2-cm black hole after several of undetectable growth. Therefore the current attempt of CERN's to produce them near Geneva is a bit curious. What is so curious about CERN's attempt? It is the fact that no one finds it curious. I am reminded of an old joke: The professor informs the candidate about the outcome of the oral exam with the following words “You are bound to laugh but you have flunked the test.” I never understood the punchline. I likewise cannot understand why a never refuted proof of the biggest danger of history leaves everyone unconcerned. Why NOT check an unattended piece of luggage on the airport called Earth? To my mind, this is the most curious story ever -- for the very reason that everyone finds it boring. A successful counter-proof would thus alleviate but a single person’s fears – mine. You, my dear reader, are thus my last hope that you might be able to explain the punch line to me: “Why is it that it does not matter downstairs that the first floor is ablaze?” I am genuinely curious to learn why attempting planetocide is fun. Are you not?
For J.O.R.
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Distinguished Professor of Yoga and Physical Science,
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