[Fis] Fw: Is quantum information the basis of spacetime? Some New Theories
Joseph Brenner
joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
Mon Nov 14 09:59:55 CET 2016
Dear All,
It is fascinating to watch the evolution of ideas about information as a
function of some new theories which beg for critique:
1. Andrei gives a correct explanation of the origin of Irreducible Quantum
Randomness. In my opinion, however, it is not necessary to assume that
randomness at the quantum level has the properties of APPARENT randomness at
the cognitive level, that is, apparent free will. Any cognitive equivalent
of non-locality is a cognitive projection.
2. Karl returns to a Platonic world of numbers which are causally effective.
I think the appropriate term for this approach is pre-scientific.
3. Alex sees the same form of causal effectiveness in Fisher information, as
interpreted by Frieden. A critique exists of Frieden's inventions which
seems correct to me. The new concepts (e.g. "bound information") and gaps in
Frieden's theory are exactly those which can be filled with the real dynamic
properties of energy/information. The discussion of these is far from
exhausted.
As an inhabitant of space-time, I am glad that it does not seem to require
any of the entities of theories 2. and 3. as its BASIS. If it did, I might
not exist.
Best wishes,
Joseph
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrei Khrennikov" <andrei.khrennikov at lnu.se>
To: "'FIS Webinar'" <Fis at listas.unizar.es>
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2016 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Fis] Is quantum information the basis of spacetime?
Dear all,
I make the last remark about "physical information". The main problem of
quantum physics is to justify so called
IRREDUCIBLE QUANTUM RANDOMNESS (IQR). It was invented by von Neumann.
Quantum randomness, in contrast to classical,
cannot be reduced to variations in an ensemble. One single electron is
irreducibly random.
The operational Copenhagen interpretation cannot "explain" the origin of
IQR, since it does not even try to explain anything,
"Shut up and calculate!" (R. Feynman to his students). Nevertheless, many
top experts in QM want some kind of "explanation". The informational
approach to QM is one
of such attempts. Roughly speaking, one tries to get IQR from fundamental
notion of "physical information" as the basic blocks of Nature.
This is very important activity, since nowadays IQR has huge technological
value, the quantum random generators are justified through IQR. And this is
billion Euro
project.
Finally, to check experimentally the presence of IQR, we have to appeal to
violation of Bell's inequality. And here (!!!) to proceed we have to
accept the existence of
FREE WILL. Thus finally the cognitive elements appears, but in very
surprisingly
setting....
Yours, andrei
Andrei Khrennikov, Professor of Applied Mathematics,
Int. Center Math Modeling: Physics, Engineering, Economics, and Cognitive
Sc.
Linnaeus University, Växjö, Sweden
My RECENT BOOKS:
http://www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/p1036
http://www.springer.com/in/book/9789401798181
http://www.panstanford.com/books/9789814411738.html
http://www.cambridge.org/cr/academic/subjects/physics/econophysics-and-financial-physics/quantum-social-science
http://www.springer.com/us/book/9783642051005
________________________________________
From: Fis [fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] on behalf of John Collier
[Collierj at ukzn.ac.za]
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2016 9:19 PM
To: loet at leydesdorff.net; 'Alex Hankey'; 'FIS Webinar'
Subject: Re: [Fis] Is quantum information the basis of spacetime?
More on Quantum information and emergent spacetime, this time by Erik P.
Verlinde:
Emergent Gravity and the Dark Universe<https://arxiv.org/abs/1611.02269>
There is a less formal review at
http://m.phys.org/news/2016-11-theory-gravity-dark.html
I consider the idea very speculative, as I have seen no work on information
within a spacetime boundary except for this sort of work.
Of course, meaning need not apply. I doubt that it is bounded by language,
but it at least has to be representational. Perhaps more is also required. I
am reluctant to talk of meaning when discussing the semiotics of biological
chemicals, for example, but could not find a better word. A made up word
like Deacon’s “entention” might work best, but it still would not apply to
the physics cases, even though the information in the boundaries in all
cases but the internal information one can tell you about the spacetime
structure within the boundary. That seems to me that it is like smoke to
fire: smoke doesn’t mean fire, despite the connection.
John Collier
Emeritus Professor and Senior Research Associate
Philosophy, University of KwaZulu-Natal
http://web.ncf.ca/collier
From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Loet
Leydesdorff
Sent: Saturday, 12 November 2016 9:29 PM
To: 'Alex Hankey' <alexhankey at gmail.com>; 'FIS Webinar'
<Fis at listas.unizar.es>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Is quantum information the basis of spacetime?
Dear Alex and colleagues,
Thank you for the reference; but my argument was about “meaning”. “Meaning”
can only be considered as constructed in language. Other uses of the word
are metaphorical. For example, the citation to Maturana.
Information, in my opinion, can be defined content-free (a la Shannon, etc.)
and then be provided with meaning in (scholarly) discourses. I consider
physics as one among other scholarly discourses. Specific about physics is
perhaps the universalistic character of the knowledge claims. For example:
“Frieden's points apply to quantum physics
as well as classical physics.“ So what? This seems to me a debate within
physics without much relevance for non-physicists (e.g., economists or
linguists).
Best,
Loet
________________________________
Loet Leydesdorff
Professor, University of Amsterdam
Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)
loet at leydesdorff.net <mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net> ;
http://www.leydesdorff.net/
Associate Faculty, SPRU, <http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/> University of
Sussex;
Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ.<http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/>, Hangzhou;
Visiting Professor, ISTIC, <http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html>
Beijing;
Visiting Professor, Birkbeck<http://www.bbk.ac.uk/>, University of London;
http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en
From: Alex Hankey [mailto:alexhankey at gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2016 8:07 PM
To: Loet Leydesdorff; FIS Webinar
Subject: Re: [Fis] Is quantum information the basis of spacetime?
Dear Loet and Fis Colleagues,
Are you aware of Roy Frieden's
'Physics from Fisher Information'.
His book was published in the 1990s.
I consider it a very powerful statement.
Ultimately everything we can detect at
both macroscopic and microscopic levels
depends on information production from
a quantum level that forms Fisher Information.
Frieden's points apply to quantum physics
as well as classical physics.
Best wishes,
Alex Hankey
On 12 November 2016 at 18:56, Loet Leydesdorff
<loet at leydesdorff.net<mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net>> wrote:
Dear Marcus,
When considering things in terms of "functional significance" one must
confront the need to address "meaning" in terms of both the living and the
physical . . . and their necessarily entangled nature.
“Meaning” is first a linguistic construct; its construction requires
interhuman communication. However, its use in terms of the living and/or the
physical is metaphorical. Instead of a discourse, one can this consider
(with Maturana) as a “second-order consensual domain” that functions AS a
semantic domain without being one; Maturana (1978, p. 50):
“In still other words, if an organism is observed in its operation within a
second-order consensual domain, it appears to the observer as if its nervous
system interacted with internal representations of the circumstances of its
interactions, and as if the changes of state of the organism were determined
by the semantic value of these representations. Yet all that takes place in
the operation of the nervous system is the structure-determined dynamics of
changing relations of relative neuronal activity proper to a closed neuronal
network.”
Failing to "make that connection" simply leaves one with an explanatory gap.
And then, once connected, a further link to "space-time" is also easily
located . . .
Yes, indeed: limiting the discussion to the metaphors instead of going to
the phore (that is, language and codification in language) leaves one with
an explanatory gap. Quantum physics, for example, is a highly specialized
language in which “mass” and “information” are provided with meanings
different from classical physics.
Best,
Loet
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