[Fis] Sustainability through multilevel research: The Lifel, Deep Society Build-A-Thon - 1

Mon Nov 30 15:05:38 CET 2015

Cari colleghi,
mi permetto di inviarVi uno stralcio da un articolo scritto da un giovane e
brillante fisico, Carlo Rovelli, in cui si riporta il pensiero di un altro
grande fisico, John Wheeler il quale afferma che la legge delle leggi è
l'INFORMAZIONE, come io sostengo da oltre trenta anni. A questo proposito
invio un file contenente un messaggio spedito ad uno dei miei giovani
collaboratori, dal quale si evince quanto detto.
Un saluto cordiale.
Francesco Rizzo.

2015-11-28 6:30 GMT+01:00 Francesco Rizzo <13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com>:

> Cari Tutti,
> sto seguendo con attenzione il dibattito che è appena iniziato, ma
> confesso qualche smarrimento. D'altra parte quando si affrontano le analisi
> di sistemi complessi, non lineari e lontani dall'equilibrio mi viene
> istintivo ancorarmi o aggrapparmi a tutto ciò che insegna la termodinamica.
> Questi sistemi, auto ed etero organizzativi, ad-attativi o dis-adattativi,
> asimmetrici o simmetrici, creano ordine dal disordine mediante fluttuazioni
> o instabilità. Sono cioè delle organizzazioni o strutture "dissipative" che
> producono il beneficio della neg-entropia sostenendo il costo
> dell'entropia. Se poi abbiamo a che fare con regimi caotici o geometrie
> frattali, come quelli che spesso si verificano nei mercati immobiliari,
> monetari e finanziari dell'economia finora nessuno, dico nessuno, ha
> elaborato algoritmi affidabili capaci di prevedere l'andamento dei valori
> futuri nè del loro rischio. La crisi speculativo-finanziaria che ha
> inginocchiato il mondo è la prova provata che gli scambi sono
> imprevedibili, irregolari, discontinui e caratterizzati da leggi di potenza
> o esponenziali. E' da circa mezzo secolo, a partire da "Il giudizio di
> valore"(1971-72) che ho criticato aspramente i cosiddetti scienziati
> "normali" della teoria economica neoclassica basata sui comportamenti
> razionali dal punto di vista individuale in un sistema statico che non
> esiste neanche nella mente malata di qualche studioso. Ecco perché ho
> inventato o scoperta, come più volte ho scritto, una "Nuova economia"
> fondata sul triangolo dei tre surplus: termodinamico o naturale,
> eco-biologico o genetico, semiotico-ermeneutico.
> Qui però nasce un problema. Per quanto sia sostenitore dell'armonia del
> sapere e adotti una procedura multi-criteriale, non mono-fattoriale, non
> sempre e non facilmente i diversi sistemi sono comparabili, confrontabili e
> analizzabili alla stessa maniera. Ad es., il significato di comunicazione è
> convenzionale. La radice etimologica del termine (communicatio)) significa
> "porre in comune", o "diffondere".Si possono classificare i seguenti
> livelli di comunicazione: Livello vegetale; livello tonico; (si basa su
> processi continui fondamentali per lo sviluppo individuale, quali la
> escrezione e  il metabolismo cellulare; comprende la produzione di essudati
> chimici, e alcune forme di comportamento trofallattico e di ricerca di
> tracce), livello fasico (emissioni di energia); livello dei segnali
> bisociali o psico-sociali; livello simbolico (plastico e variabile);
> livello linguistico (comunicazione di idee astratte, parlato,
> meta-linguaggio: limitato all'uomo).
> Allora bisogna in-centrare i nostri studi su due triadi: la prima è
> costituita dalla significazione, informazione e comunicazione; la seconda
> dalla sintattica, semantica e pragmatica. Queste due triadi sono
> fondamentali per l'intera esistenza e tutta la conoscenza.
> Concludo affermando che, seppure adottando e adattando una visione
> olistica e globale, non possiamo essere esperti di tuttologia, quindi è
> consigliabile alla luce di una certa impostazione epistemica o
> paradigmatica fornire le esperienze delle discipline coltivate onde
> metterle insieme o in comune, cioè comunicarle, senza scoraggiare i voli
> pindarici o i comportamenti da monaci delle piccole o singole cose. Non si
> può certo pensare, in buona fede, di fare sfoggio, di sapere essere, sapere
> conoscere, sapere avere e sapere fare, sfuggendo alla "grammatica della
> fantasia" o creativa e alla concretezza della tecno-scienza o ingegneria
> generale.
> Questo è un soffio o un granello del mio pensiero pensante e lo rassegno
> con molta umiltà e dichiarando che sono educato all'armonia del
> dis-accordo, ma rifuggo  dalle confusioni o accumulazioni o ammucchiamenti
> ai quali non sono abituato: ricordo,  a questo proposito, che l'economia
> (come attività o come conoscenza) è una mezza arte e una mezza scienza,
> Quindi quando si accosta ad altre "sensate esperienze" o alle diverse
> conoscenze bisogna stare molto attenti.
> Un abbraccio.
> Francesco
>
> 2015-11-27 17:07 GMT+01:00 Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>:
>
>> Dear Nikhil,
>>
>> I think it is a very interesting exercise to see how a consensus might be
>> reached on your work by both adding to and subtracting from the different
>> perspectives. Thus, I agree with Stan that we are looking at instances of
>> isomorphism at different levels, and this for me is entirely logical (;-).
>> Levels of reality exist and the rules that apply in them are not identical,
>> and this constitutes a discontinuity between them. Also, within a given
>> level involving three elements, even if they all influence one another, it
>> should be possible to decompose the interactions into those between A and
>> B, the resultant of which interacts with C. This is Pedro's comment in
>> somewhat different terms.
>>
>> On the other hand, as I have argued elsewhere, the use of the term
>> 'self-organization' does not bring any additional knowledge. It diverts
>> attention from the dynamics of the different flows, which are also affected
>> by such a multitude of external factors, actual and potential, that the
>> process could equally well be called hetero-organization.  Also, and I
>> really just ask this as a question, how does the concept of hierarchy
>> affect the analysis? If as you write there are different species involved
>> in exchange networks across ascending levels, what would be important to
>> know are the details of these exchanges. Here, the above discontinuity
>> between levels seems to be replaced by a degree of continuity. Your
>> statement implies to me interactions /between/ different levels, but are
>> these interactions bi-directional reactions? How would the rates of forward
>> and back reactions be related?
>>
>> I look forward to your comments on the above which I assure you is
>> intended to be constructive.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <
>> pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>
>> To: <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>> Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 1:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Fis] Sustainability through multilevel research: The Lifel,
>> Deep Society Build-A-Thon - 1
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Nikhil and colleagues (Bob, Stan...),
>>>
>>> Let me concur with Stan's arguments.  I think you are working with
>>> original ideas about two different instances of self-organization in Nature
>>> where  metabolic-energetic flows  are modulated  by third parties in order
>>> to maintain some maximum of stability in a very complex co-assemblage so
>>> that it may result compatible with the existing limitations of the global
>>> environment. It is sort of a fiscal agency or an energy police-body that
>>> keeps an overall adaptive order in the multifarious exchange of flows.
>>>
>>> The two instances you describe are widely independent, in spite of the
>>> relative links existing (in the ecosphere, it is very difficult the
>>> complete independence). Forcing them into a hierarchy is not the best idea,
>>> in my opinion, as the two description are quite interesting, original, and
>>> advanced by themselves--particularly in order to land on the global
>>> problems of the economic order of our times. Connecting meaningfully with
>>> the path discussed by Bob and his colleagues requires quite a bit of
>>> further thinking. Economic organization is based finally on symmetry and
>>> symmetry breaking at different "levels" (just from the double-entry
>>> accounting of the agent to the collective market prices and valuation of
>>> stocks, to the financial coupling with the "real" economy). Like in the
>>> biological organization of information flows, there is a generalized
>>> dialectics of balances and modulations, of symmetry and symmetry breakings,
>>> yes, in some hierarchical framework. Unfortunately the information/symmetry
>>> topic is far from being properly developed as a "complexity engine", except
>>> maybe in physics, and we prefer indulging in independent disciplinary
>>> conceptualizations, preferably inspired in mechanics, that obfuscate
>>> understanding.
>>>
>>> It is a rather difficult discussion... Further efforts from yours and
>>> your colleagues, and other parties in the list would be needed.  From my
>>> part, this weekend I will re-read your papers and Bob's links. We cannot
>>> renounce to advance in this discussion.
>>>
>>> All the best--Pedro
>>>
>>>
>>> Nikhil Joshi wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Stan,
>>>>> You raise a very interesting and important question.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Recent findings suggest that mycorrhiza could modulate the rate of
>>>> assimilation of molecules (driven by changing rates of photosynthesis)
>>>> across groups of plants by modulating the flow of phosphorous (from the
>>>> subsoil sources) across competing autotrophic species. Such modulation
>>>> alters the overall conversion of geochemical (molecular) resources into
>>>> biomass. Hence the modulatory effects of mycorrhizal modulation are at the
>>>> level of molecular flows between geo-cycles and autotrophs (level 1).
>>>>
>>>> What is suggested here is that gut bacteria are involved in the
>>>> modulation of rate of reproduction of cellular and multicellular species.
>>>> Hence their effect is at a cellular level (level 2)
>>>> Hence the activities of the two modulator systems are at two different
>>>> scales- molecular and cellular.
>>>> A multilevel view reveals a growing complexity in the species involved
>>>> in exchange networks across ascending levels (compositional hierarchy) from
>>>> molecules, to cells, multicellular species, and social Organization. A
>>>> compositional hierarchy is also seen at each level in the emergence of
>>>> community structure at each level. However, I agree that these observations
>>>> do not constitute a complete description of the hierarchal relationships in
>>>> these systems. The developing a formal hierarchical view would provide much
>>>> clearer view of these systems and their interconnections. Given my limited
>>>> knowledge of formal hierarchies, I would appreciate your assurance and
>>>> views on this. Thanking you, Warm regards,
>>>> Nikhil
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> Nikhil Joshi
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>>> Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
>>> Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
>>> Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
>>> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain
>>> Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
>>> pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
>>> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
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