<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Dear AP supporters: How would you incorporate this into the whole AP picture? I'm curious:</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><img src="cid:ii_mjgn68dc0" alt="G8onWMkXsAIzdA3.jpg" width="365" height="524"></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Best regards - Jason<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Dec 21, 2025 at 4:19 PM Paul Suni <<a href="mailto:paul.p.suni@gmail.com">paul.p.suni@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Dear Pedro,<div><br></div><div>Thank you for starting this wonderful thread! I think we’re maybe on the same page, but I want to defend AP. When I found AP 25 years ago, it literally changed my life. My background in theoretical physics and semiconductor technology conflicted completely with my background in the transformational practices of humanistic/existential psychology and my intellectual engagement with the organismic psychological tradition.</div><div><br></div><div>I deeply appreciate your challenge of AP and it reminds us that AP is not a biological theory. As you know, Maturana even originally called his field of research “ experimental epistemology” rather than biology. Later, following their paper “ Autopoiesis and Cognition” Maturana and Varela published their totallly revolutionary book “ Tree of Knowledge,” which had the beautiful subtitle, “ The Biological Roots of Human Understanding.” In my biased view of AP, I regard it as a scientifially languaged conceptual bridge between knowing and being.</div><div><br></div><div>Having said that, I imagine that AP could possibly respond to your critique <span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">on AP’s terms by continuing to reject the tyranny of reductive information and reframing its notion of languaging in the contexts of apoptosis, the one component system and introjection of genetic material. I believe that apoptosis, the one component system and the introjection of DNA could probably be handled in AP as consensual coordinations of coordinations (languaging) in service of the conservation of autopoiesis and cognition. There is not enough space here to go into it.</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div><div><font color="#000000"> In my view, languaging i.e. consensual coordinations of coordinations ought to be regarded as information, if the notion of information is to eventually become applicable to human sentience. However, your subsequent remarks (today) on a new approach to information already seem to point in that integrative direction, and my answer to your question, “ we would need…what?” is that we should</font><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"> strive for a new notion of information that handles the tense dynamical relations between the component and collective. This can be expressed mathematically.</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div><div><font color="#000000">Based on your challenge, it is clear that AP may need careful rehabilitation, but it should help us to develop new conceptions of information that make value real. In AP value comes from conservation, but this conservation requires problem solving, which should be regarded as a matter of resolving tensions (according to Gilbert Simondon’s critique of information).</font></div><div><font color="#000000"><br></font></div><div><font color="#000000">Cheers,</font></div><div><font color="#000000">Paul </font></div><div><font color="#000000"><br></font></div><div><font color="#000000">P.S. My AI basically says that the above response to you is lousy. It doesn’t understand that there is a consensual coordination of coordinations going on here. I hope that you’ll take a more tolerant view of my response to you than AI does.</font></div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Dec 21, 2025, at 10:42 AM, Pedro C. Marijuán <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div>
<div>
<div>Dear FIS Colleagues,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It is my impression that there is a
vast swath of biological (& social) phenomena the
conceptualization of which demands a new approach to information
--tentatively, a new synthesis. Let me show a few potential
guidelines.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-- When the best known cellular
signaling system is approached, i.e., the E. coli set of
component-systems (1 CS, 2CS, 3CS) plus transporters, channels,
receptor-channels, sigma factors, etc., what we contemplate is a
vast exploratory system of the environment, so that an
"information flow" based on specific molecular recognition events
grants the advancement of a life cycle continuously adapted to the
changing environment.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-- When we do a similar exercise with
the cells of a multicellular, we find several dozen of signaling
pathways, each one of a much larger complexity, that have been
acting during the different phases of the life cycle of that cell,
and particularly along its developmental & tissular
differentiation trajectory. Now, the "information flow"
intercepted by the single cell is caught within what was called a
"bauplan", further participating in a microscopic problem-solving
of the whole functions & niche adaptations of the multicell
organism. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-- When advanced nervous systems
appear, a quasi-instantaneous information flow and a coupled
locomotion & action system provide a new way to stay in the
world, which culminates (in some important aspects) in the human
adaptation to a social niche. Now the information flow contains
language, emotional contents, facial & bodily expressions,
plus all the previous ecological demands. The human life cycle
takes place amidst a "sociotype" of acquaintances to which most of
the information flow belongs or is addressed to. It is in this
framework that new ways of communication may propel social
complexity, though stifling at the same time the adaptive
propensities inherent in human life cycles. Just a glance on the
Anthropogenesis special issue to appear quite soon can be
revealing. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What McLuhan predicated on the media of
his time (and the history of) was based on a thin and pretty
abstracted conception of the media impact on our individual
nervous systems (not his fault, but the state of science in his
time). Without diminishing his legate, we need to encounter him
from the other side of the "breach" (reminding C.P. Snow's gap
between literary intellectuals -humanities- and natural
scientists), now equipped with a far richer understanding on the
information phenomena in the biological & the social. Rather
then looking for elegant, ambitious all-comprehensive names we
would need... what?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>All the best,</div>
<div>--Pedro</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>El 19/12/2025 a las 17:14, Mark Johnson
escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Dear Gordana, all,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The comparison of autopoiesis with Darwin is very
interesting. Like Maturana, Darwin provided a scientific
narrative which had explanatory power but whose predictive
power is largely untestable. There's a whole contorted series
of scientific developments which have ensued since, with
genomics and neo-Darwinism leading the charge. The likes of
Denis Noble (and Torday) have been challenging all of this, of
course.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In the light of this, wouldn't it be equally possible to
say "Darwinism was never meant to explain cell communication,
or epigenetic inheritance, or to predict the effect of
microgravity on PTHrP - it was an explanation at a higher
level. It is not a causal explanation, but a constraint on the
unity of any particular organism." But are we not just playing
with words here? What isn't a constraint on the unity of an
organism?!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If we were to look at something slightly different, why not
examine Friston Free Energy? I'm not an advocate of FEP, but
it at least does seem to be furnished with empirical examples
that correlate with simulated models (I made a simulation the
other day - chat is really good at this these days - <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://markwilliamjohnson.github.io/epicoh/FEP.html__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Qb2Aia8dIGosrRcBARsQjQF_8zptefw-6jT5Vzg963ZqA5aSiuvQcGwBAwuJr3HRn92qWfCAa_Givk9pC32sQqE$" target="_blank">Free Energy Principle: Evolution
& Organismic Agency</a>). But on deeper inspection of
those models, new questions emerge about all those Bayesian
calculations, the abstractness of it all - but at least
there's something empirical there (<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nature.com/articles/nrn2787__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Qb2Aia8dIGosrRcBARsQjQF_8zptefw-6jT5Vzg963ZqA5aSiuvQcGwBAwuJr3HRn92qWfCAa_Givk9pllVzxis$" target="_blank">The free-energy principle: a unified
brain theory? | Nature Reviews Neuroscience</a>)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think the real point is that we have a choice as to
whether we attach ourselves to explanatory principles and
conduct our scientific discourse on the basis of that
attachment (which, to be frank, is what cults do), or we
insist on the turn to nature and question to what extent our
explanatory narratives are unsound. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best wishes,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Mark</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 at 10:37,
Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <<a href="mailto:dodig@chalmers.se" target="_blank">dodig@chalmers.se</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div lang="en-SE">
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Dear Mark,
dear all,</span><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""><br>
<br>
</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">I think
the comparison with the periodic table sets rather
different expectations than autopoiesis was ever
meant to address.</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">
</span><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Autopoiesis
is not comparable to the periodic table.</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">If anything,
it is closer in spirit to Darwin’s theory of
evolution.
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Darwin’s
framework was extraordinarily powerful, yet
radically incomplete at the time it was proposed.
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Much of what
we now take to be central to evolutionary theory</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">, such as </span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">genetics,
population dynamics, molecular mechanisms</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">,
</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">basal
cognition, etc.
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">was
unavailable to him.
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Over time,
evolutionary theory was extended, revised, and
enriched,
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">and its
continued capacity to generate new developments is a
sign of its strength.</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""></span></p><div><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><br></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">This
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">development</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> is clearly
visible in the Extended Evolutionary Synthesis</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">
<span lang="EN-GB">that </span></span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">expands
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""><br>
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">the
gene-centric Modern Synthesis by integrating
development (evo-devo),
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""><br>
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">phenotypic
plasticity, epigenetic inheritance, and niche
construction.</span><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">I</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">t treats
organisms as active participants in evolution,
shaping their environments and </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">affecting</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> evolution</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""><br>
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">through
developmental and organizational processes, rather
than viewing genes as the
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">only</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> drivers.
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">This did not
replace Darwinian evolution</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">.</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">I</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">t deepened
and operationalized it.</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""></span></p><div><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><br></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">I see
autopoiesis in a similar
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">way</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">. It is not a
finished theory, and many of its aspects require
further development.</span><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">For example,
Maturana was famously
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">opposed</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">to</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> assigning an
essential role to information,
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""><br>
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">whereas today
it seems obvious that informational processes
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">are central</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">.
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Likewise,
classical formulations of autopoiesis focus
primarily on the autopoietic system itself</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">,
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">the living
agent</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">,<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">giving
comparatively little attention to the environment
and the interactive processes that couple the two.
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">We are
gradually learning how
</span><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">important</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> those
interactions are.</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""><br>
<br>
</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">But this
reflects the character of an open-ended, generative
theory</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">,
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">one that
continues to
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">inspire</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> refinement</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">s</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">,
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""><br>
improvements</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">, and
integration with other approaches.
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">To my mind,
what ultimately counts is whether the ongoing
development of autopoietic thinking
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""><br>
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">leads to
genuinely new and deep biological insights.</span><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""></span></p><div><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><br></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Best regards,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Gordana</span></p>
<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">-</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote><p><br>
</p>
</div>
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