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<p><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">Dear Stu,</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">Many thanks for sharing this</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">.</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"> I find your argument genuinely important.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">Your articulation of catalytic
<em><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">and</span></em> constraint closure, and especially the point that such systems do thermodynamic work to construct specifically themselves, captures essential
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">insight </span>
<span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">that is missed by automata-based models of self-reproduction.
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"><br>
</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">As you note, the von Neumann U + Program framework, powerful as it is for machines, relies on
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">critical </span>
<span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">simplifications</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">,</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"><br>
especially</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"> the hardware/software separation and fixed syntactic descriptions that are not valid for living systems.
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">Your insight about computation is very central. If computation is to be relevant for life, it must be able to describe self-generating,
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"><br>
</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">self-modifying systems, where the organization that performs
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">(natural)
</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">computation is itself produced and maintained by the dynamics.
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">This aligns with George Kampis’ notion of self-modifying, component systems. As he put it:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;color:#0432FF">“A component system is a computer which, when executing its operations (software) builds a new hardware… [w]e have a computer that re-wires itself in a hardware–software interplay: the hardware
defines the software and the software defines new hardware. Then the circle starts again.”<br>
(Kampis, <em><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">Self-Modifying Systems in Biology and Cognitive Science</span></em>, p. 223)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">Many thanks for continuing and developing
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">this</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"> line of thought that has long been important.
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">T</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">hese ideas are crucial for understanding life</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">,
<br>
and </span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">clarifying the limits of the von Neumann approach to agency.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">Best regards,<br>
Gordana<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><strong><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;font-weight:normal">P.S.</span></strong><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"> Kampis’ book is available here:<br>
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://hps.elte.hu/*gk/Books/SMSCB_Kampis.pdf__;fg!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VhaqmUm23J8fr5UboM3mY_TP2RsX9xMZ6G35sji5V7YiuRZP39fP5oP4Ipd5xtUEZcW7nb_aATazgi2ul0oGcML0o3tmIw$" target="_new">https://hps.elte.hu/~gk/Books/SMSCB_Kampis.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">My position on physical origins of memory, anticipation, and top-down causation is developed here:<br>
Dodig-Crnkovic, G. (2026) <em><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">Anticipation, Memory, and Top-Down Causation in Living Systems</span></em>,
<strong><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;font-weight:normal">BioSystems</span></strong>, 259, 105640.<br>
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2025.105640__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VhaqmUm23J8fr5UboM3mY_TP2RsX9xMZ6G35sji5V7YiuRZP39fP5oP4Ipd5xtUEZcW7nb_aATazgi2ul0oGcMJMiMkweA$" target="_new">https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2025.105640</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Fis <fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Stuart Kauffman <stukauffman@gmail.com><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, 16 December 2025 at 15:12<br>
<b>To: </b>Louis Kauffman <loukau@gmail.com>, "stukauffman@gmail.com" <stukauffman@gmail.com>, Andrea Roli <andrea.roli@unibo.it><br>
<b>Cc: </b>JOHN TORDAY <jtorday@ucla.edu>, ""Pedro C. Marijuán"" <pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com>, "joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" <joe.brenner@bluewin.ch>, Steve Watson <sw10014@cam.ac.uk>, fis <fis@listas.unizar.es><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Fis] Current remarks/Autopoiesis (& KARL SESSION)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Hi All, </span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">I hope I may report, perhaps again, that self reproducing molecular systems already exist.
</span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">These are autopoetic collectively autocatalyic sets of peptides, of RNA, and of DNA. Look up Gonen Ashkenasy re a 9 peptide collectively autocatalytic set. In addition, Gonen’s set achieves the newly recognized
property of “Catalytic plus Constraint Closure”.</span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">”Catalytic Closure” means that the production of a second copy of each of the 9 peptides is catalyzed by at least one of the peptides in the set. This is a familiar Idea.
</span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">The more radical ideas is this: "Constraint Closure”. Thermodynamic work is the constrained release of energy into a few degrees of freedom.
</span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Think cannon, cannon ball and powder. The cannon is the constraint or boundary condition.
</span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">So: No Constraint, no Work. But it took work to construct the Cannon boundary condition! Newton does not tell us where the boundary conditions come from.</span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Mael Montevil and Mateo Mossio introduced the idea of Constraint Closure in 2015. Here a set of constraints mutually
<i>depend </i>upon one another. </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black"><br>
</span><span style="color:black">Recently I have refined this idea to require that in a constraint closed system, the boundary condition constraints do the thermodynamic work to construct one another.</span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">For example, consider three non equilibrium processes, 1,2,3 and three constraints, A, B,C.
</span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Let A constrain the release of energy in process 1 to construct a B.
</span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Let B constrain the release of energy in process 2 to construct a C.
</span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Let C constrain the release of energy in process 3 to construct an A.
</span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">This is a new union of flow processes and constraints on flow processes.
</span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="color:black">The constraints on the flow process construct the same constraints.</span></i><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="color:black">This constraint closed system does thermodynamic work to construct specifically itself.
</span></i><i><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="color:black">Gonen’s 9 peptide system achieves catalytic and constraint closure.
</span></i><i><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="color:black">Peptide 1 binds the two half fragments of peptide 2, hence lowers the activation barrier for the ligation reaction.
</span></i><i><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="color:black">Energy is released into a few degrees of freedom and thermodynamic w</span></i><i><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">o</span><span style="color:black">rk is done to construct the new peptide bond between
the two half fragments. </span></i><i><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="color:black">Once ligated, the two half fragments ARE a second copy of peptide 2.
</span></i><i><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="color:black">And so on around the cycle of 9 peptides.</span></i><i><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="color:black">Thus the system harnesses energy to construct specifically itself.</span></i><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">This is a new union of matter and energy and process.
</span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">I think this is Bergon’s Elan Vital, rendered entirely non mysterious. Lou this does what you ask for below.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Another very interesting point. <i>
The distinction between hardware and software vanishes. </i></span><i><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">This is fundamentally different from von Neumann’s "self reproducing machine" with U, the Universal constructor, and The Program - welded girders - that instruct U, to construct a second U, then The physical Program
is copied and the copy is inserted in the new U. Hence "U plusThe Program" can produce a new "U and Program".<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">In Gonen’s system, there is no "U and The Program". Gonen’s system constructs specifically itself. This seems fundamental.
</span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><br>
</span><span style="color:black">The software hardware distinction is not present. There is no The Program in Gonen’s set.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Another deep point. We think of template replicating DNA or RNA as a molecular storage of heritable information. It is.
</span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">But Gonen’s set, with catalytic and constraint closure is a different molecular mechanism that specifically constructs itself,
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black"><br>
</span><span style="color:black">so is an entirely different carrier of heritable molecular variability in evolution.
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black"><br>
</span><span style="color:black">Heritable variation can occur by exchange of “irreducible autocatalytic sets”. We have not seen this before.</span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">I am fascinated by the idea of a second molecular heritable system is in life.
</span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Joana Xavier has found small molecule collectively autocatalytic sets in all 6700 prokaryotes.
</span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">These SMCAS (also called RAFS) are themselves Catalytic and Constraint closed systems.
</span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">How much of the stability of evolution is due to these rather than DNA sequence stability?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Among the issues to think about: Syntactic symbols on a computer do not have the relevant physically CAUSAL Properties.
</span><span lang="SV" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">In Gonen’s set, molecular embodiment is necessary. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">This material is now in Press, Oxford UP, “Origins: Cosmos, Life, Mind”, by myself, due out April 2026, and recently published with Andrea Roli: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black">Kauffman, S., and Roli, A. Is the emergence of life and agency expected? (2025), </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Phil. Trans. R. Soc. B 380:
20240283. <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/doi.org/10.1098/rstb.2024.0283__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Qc3OKFroL6YCvAQbJBtZwy2oDbBLth7PWz__OCwH9KR57-cY4jj9nV9rSdyFW9ctPn0qhBarWyJaoIhee_aLKZg$">
<span style="color:black">https://doi.org/10.1098/rstb.2024.0283</span></a> </span><span style="color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Hope this is useful.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Stu<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">On Dec 16, 2025, at 1:31</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black">AM, Louis Kauffman <loukau@gmail.com> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Dear John, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">I am sure that this will be my last legal communication this week.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">As you know, I am an advocate of the use of abstractions or patterns that can apply to multiple situations. You seem to always advocate that any given idea must be instantiated and explained by some specific physical
circumstance. That is so alien to my way of thinking that I actually find it interesting. But you could consider what I say interesting to you. I say that we can consider a process whereby a structure (and we as observers have to decide how that structure
is to be detected or observed) is maintained even though the component parts of the structure are seen to change over time. Indeed we are thinking of the structure itself as showing how it uses material from its environment to form itself and so continue its
form. Such a process is called autopoeitic. But there are many examples of such structures, with different kinds of physical substrates. The place where your way of thinking comes in is when I have a more grandiose thought that perhaps what we call the Universe
is autopoeitic. But then the Universe should be its own environment! I do not believe in closed system autopoeisis. So I correspondingly find that I do not believe in a closed universe.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">If you ever imagine that you have defined the Universe (Wolfram once said he thought he could do it in a thousand lines of code) you will find that it has escaped your definition. For me that is quite satisfying.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Lou<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">On Dec 15, 2025, at 6:25 AM, JOHN TORDAY <<a href="mailto:jtorday@ucla.edu"><span style="color:black">jtorday@ucla.edu</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Dear Lou et al, with regard to MUV, they address the subject of 'autopoiesis' or self-referential self-organization without a mechanism that would allow testing/refuting. With
all due respect to them, they were working in the pre-molecular biology world, to which I have access now. But given all of that, I am of the opinion that autopoiesis is synonymous with homeostasis, the latter seen as an<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>exaptation</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>(Gould
and Vrba's term for a trait that reference some earlier adaptive strategy from the past). In the case of homeostasis, the exaptation refers to the chemical 'balancing' of hydrogen and helium reacting iteratively to form the stars (Stellar Nucleosynthesis,
Hoyle, 1946), the byproducts of which were the elements in their exact order of their atomic masses from 1 to 94 as the 'logic' of the Cosmos. Fast forward 10 billion years, and life is evolving due to symbiogenic (Sagan, 1967) assimilation of the elements
in order to maintain their homeostatic balance in an ever-changing environment, assimilating the logic of the Cosmos......and this is the foundation for both local and non-local consciousness. In their book "Autopoiesis and Cognition" M and V describe what
I am offering a mechanistic explanation for which IS TESTABLE in the sense that if you deprive cells of the force of gravity they devolve. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">On Mon, Dec 15, 2025 at 1:22 AM Louis Kauffman <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com"><span style="color:black">loukau@gmail.com</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Dear Folks,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">I maintain that there still continues a confusion about the aim of the cybernetic work of Maturana,Uribe and Varela, particularly if the criticisms are in the form of<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">the clear need for detailed understanding of just how life processes work. Who can deny that? MUV point out that a living organism consists in an organization that keeps replenishing
its materiality while at the same time maintaining its organization. They further raise the question about how such organization can arise in the first place, giving a very elementary example of such an emergence. In this way they provide a framework for thinking
about organization and process that is more general than biology and that lets one think about these matters without dogma. In order to do so, one must avoid making dogma out of MUV and now we arrive at the problem. The problem, as I see it, is in academic
discussion -- which normally depends on making references to previously published work, each such work being regarded as some kind of steppingstone to the building of an imagined edifice of thought. But you just cannot maintain that sort of structure unless
you have the kind of foundational criticism as occurs in some parts of science such as in physics an mathematics but is unfortunately not present elsewhere. One can eventually discard the shells of useless thought (like phlogiston). MUV is not providing us
with a possible phlogiston. They are providing us with general principles of organization for structures that persist in time. It is not time yet to discard these ideas.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Lou<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">On Sun, Dec 14, 2025 at 3:39 PM Pedro C. Marijuán <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</span></a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Dear List,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Let me start by recognizing Kate Peil and Lou Kauffman for their work in the session on Karl's legacy. Kate has written a thoughtful summary of Karl's main views that can be
downloaded from fis web pages, at:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/fis.sciforum.net/resources/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XnqxvPkY3DZ0qm24FtSwHBLsPRrbl4YHc1CDT3u8HMVP2dum7rgwsbIydFJ0LNUBEpVZvOWMkfhlpVK3$" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">https://fis.sciforum.net/resources/</span></a> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b> Have
a glance, "merece la pena" as we say in Spanish. Also, the session was recorded and will appear in IAIS Dialogs:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.youtube.com/@IAISDIALOGUES__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XnqxvPkY3DZ0qm24FtSwHBLsPRrbl4YHc1CDT3u8HMVP2dum7rgwsbIydFJ0LNUBEpVZvOWMkXRQTcUy$" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">https://www.youtube.com/@IAISDIALOGUES</span></a></b><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">About AP, please note that it was proposed as a pandisciplinary or metatheory of cognition for the whole living. Interesting in the 70s in spite of its evident lack of biological
substance, but 50 years ago the accumulation of anomalies (I telegraphed a few of them) have made its maintenance really problematic--as Kuhn would have said. That it can be supported by people working in mathematical or logical or philosophical grounds is
OK, but remember please that "the tree of knowledge" was proposed not exactly for those fields but for the entire life. As wikipedia blandly acknowledges: "The influence of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Autopoiesis</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>in
mainstream biology was limited. Autopoiesis is not commonly used as the criterion for life...", citing from an aggiornamento proposed by Razeto-Barry, Pablo (October 2012).<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><cite id="m_6171548406681999615m_-7683660125721866156CITEREFRazeto-Barry2012"><span style="font-family:Helvetica"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.researchgate.net/publication/232231194__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XnqxvPkY3DZ0qm24FtSwHBLsPRrbl4YHc1CDT3u8HMVP2dum7rgwsbIydFJ0LNUBEpVZvOWMkX_Aal-W$" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">"Autopoiesis
40 Years Later. A Review and A Reformulation"</span></a>.</span></cite><span class="apple-converted-space"><i> </i></span><cite><span style="font-family:Helvetica">Origins of Life.</span></cite><span class="apple-converted-space"><i> </i></span><cite><b><span style="font-family:Helvetica">42</span></b></cite><span class="apple-converted-space"><i> </i></span><cite><span style="font-family:Helvetica">(6):</span></cite><span class="apple-converted-space"><i> </i></span><cite><span style="font-family:Helvetica">543–567.</span></cite><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Best --Pedro<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">El 14/12/2025 a las 11:59,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>escribió:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">The recognition that “autopoiesis” is not some kind of monolithic, spontaneous,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><em><span style="font-family:Helvetica">sui
generis</span></em><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>process has been long in coming. For me, it is at best an appearance-reality duality, without explanatory power.</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">If one agrees that “autopoiesis” does not operate like an on-off switch, then there must be some intermediate stages or structures, as well as some movement between
them. The “auto-“ is then clearly a misnomer but let us go on. It is these details of real processes that is, of any real change for which Stéphane Lupasco proposed a movement between primarily actual to primarily potential and<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><em><span style="font-family:Helvetica">vice
versa</span></em>, alternately and reciprocally. This sinusoidal view of process is certainly to be found elsewhere, at least in “potential” form, but Lupasco deserves the historical credit for having formulated it. Identities – “my theory” – thus appear for
what they are, idealizations cut off from their opposites or, in reality, not contradictions but counteractions.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><em><span style="font-family:Helvetica">Pace</span></em><span class="apple-converted-space"><i> </i></span>Steve,
one must be able to deal with<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><em><span style="font-family:Helvetica">discontinuous</span></em><span class="apple-converted-space"><i> </i></span>exchange, as well a continuous. </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">There is still no accepted “language” in which to express these principles. I have tried, of course, a language of energy, following Lupasco. Modern, post-Bertalanffy
systems theory comes perhaps close, as does Steve’s Autopoietic Ecology, since it recognizes the limitations of static formulations of the dynamic real world,<em><span style="font-family:Helvetica">including</span></em><span class="apple-converted-space"><i> </i></span>its
domains that are binary to all intentas and purposes.</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">I hope a renewed dialogue is possible, without recourse to the “baby” diagrams of Peirce and Wittgenstein <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Thanks and best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Joseph<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Le 13.12.2025 20:10 CET, Steve Watson<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:sw10014@cam.ac.uk" target="_blank"><span style="color:black"><sw10014@cam.ac.uk></span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>a
écrit :<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Dear Lou, dear colleagues,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Thank you for posting the 1974 Varela, Maturana, and Uribe paper — it is extremely helpful to have the discussion re-anchored in the original formulation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">I fully agree with the point you emphasise: autopoietic systems are not materially or energetically closed. They exist only through continuous exchange with their environment, while preserving an organisational
invariance across that exchange. The simple protocell model in the paper remains one of the clearest demonstrations of this idea.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">This is also the sense in which I use expressions such as O ≈ F(O): not as a claim about self-containment, energetic closure, or perpetual motion, but as a shorthand for organisational persistence across transformation.
I should probably make that explicit more often, as the notation clearly invites misreadings.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">For avoidance of doubt, Autopoietic Ecology does not treat autopoiesis as a universal or exclusive explanatory principle. It treats it as one type of organisational dynamic that becomes interesting precisely when
systems are open, fragile, metabolically dependent, and capable of breakdown as well as persistence. The ecological emphasis is meant to foreground coupling, constraint, and reorganisation rather than purity or closure.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">I appreciate your reminder of how carefully these distinctions were drawn in the original work. It helps keep the discussion focused on what autopoiesis was actually intended to say — and what later extensions
should remain accountable to.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Warm regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div id="m_6171548406681999615m_-7683660125721866156ms-outlook-mobile-signature">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Sent from<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/aka.ms/o0ukef__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RkQN2OV63tPC5SkQehKl68utm5y4RNCuvAzahTMs7Guc-nNsFbJ1xenO8zci4NCEraNL98_xj7uBmedwO4jb$" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">Outlook
for iOS</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">
<hr size="2" width="604" style="width:453.05pt" align="center">
</span></div>
<div id="m_6171548406681999615m_-7683660125721866156divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></strong><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Fis<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><span style="color:black"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>on
behalf of Louis Kauffman<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:black"><loukau@gmail.com></span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Sent:</span></strong><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, December 13, 2025 5:43:58 PM<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">To:</span></strong><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Pedro C. Marijuán<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:black"><pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com></span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Cc:</span></strong><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><span style="color:black"><fis@listas.unizar.es></span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Subject:</span></strong><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Fis] Current remarks/Autopoiesis</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">It is still worth while to read the original paper by Maturana, Varela and Uribe.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/monoskop.org/images/d/dd/Varela_Maturana_Uribe_1974_Autopoiesis.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WyWMlWnFm0o4ncLeSN2bah-w8NstuK2jGIYI4dDC6K3eiM--0f70muEN4SkRLS50fLMhSd0qnVj-BUy1$" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">https://monoskop.org/images/d/dd/Varela_Maturana_Uribe_1974_Autopoiesis.pdf</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Here is a link to that paper.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 3:16 PM Pedro C. Marijuán <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</span></a>>
wrote:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Dear List,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">When I hear on autopiesis, my impression is that many people continue to be blindly tied to a conceptualization, interesting in its origins and counterpoise to then dominant
reductionist stances, but inconsequential with its biological-cellular grounding --even in that very time, but even more in our times. I argued past months on the AP weakness regarding apoptosis & protein degradation, many genes rarely expressed along the
life cycle, openness to obtain foreign dna from the environment, plasmids & phages uptake, horizontal gene transmission, multiple generation of gene novelties, sex & recombinations, etc. About information in AP, "signaling" is not accepted as such, but as
"structural coupling with the niche" (so, nothing about an external information flow or the like). About the obvious need of, say, an energy flow there is no realization that a previous sensing of ALL those items is needed. The revolution in prokaryotic signaling
brought by the discovery of "One Component Systems" (in the hundreds in each bacteria) in last two decades clarify that point--how the external substances are first "tasted" and later introjected. The interception of an information flow best adapted to the
ongoing life cycle is continuously made. So, the living cell is just "informational": in its self-production, in its relationship with the environment, and in its generation of multi-cell complexity.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">To be continued one of these days.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">--Pedro<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> . El 10/12/2025 a las 23:08, Krassimir Markov escribió:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Dear Steve,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I respect your opinion and understanding of the world through AE, but still there are some reasonable scientific boundaries that should not be crossed. Here is a small example.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Air existed before we were born and, I hope, if there is no destructive war instigated by russia, it will continue to exist after our death. At the same time, without air we cannot
live, i.e. we are an open system that constantly exchanges resources with the environment. In other words, living organisms are not autopoietic systems. To convince yourself of this statement, just stop breathing. The conviction in the truth of the statement
will come to you only after a minute or two and you will probably accept that your operator should be written<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">O=F(O, Input, Output).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I am writing this in connection with your statement that "Material processes and interpretive activity are not alternatives; they are two sides of the same ecological dynamic. Neither
can be shown to precede the other.” which I cannot accept as true.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Just as there are no closed autopoietic systems, so there is no reality that cannot exist without interpretation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">The ecological dynamic you are talking about is a mental structure and, of course, in it properly the mental structures that reflect the material processes and the mental structures
that interpret them are dialectically connected in consciousness, and yes - they are two sides of a common mental structure, if we can even talk about sides in mental structures.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12.65pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Dear Eric,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I completely agree with your thoughts. Indeed, the study of the processes of interaction between people is very important and has great significance. Unfortunately, my impression is
that most researchers adhere to the deeply erroneous and inapplicable to humans Shannon's paradigm.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Yes, the theory of signal transmission is wonderfully applied in technical data transmission systems, where the basic principle is "copy/paste". In other words, the image that is formed
in the recipient's memory completely (100%!!!) coincides with the image in the sender's memory. Any deviation is considered an error and requires re-sending the data, as well as the application of error-resistant codes during transmission.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">In humans, this is absolutely impossible and inapplicable. "Copy/paste" cannot happen due to the nature of the interaction between people, which is at the level of meaning, and not
at the level of signals (reflections). The sender (a person or group of people) externalizes their mental structures (for example, this letter), and the recipient reflects what they have received and gives it their own meaning. It is impossible in this process
to obtain an exact copy of the image from the source's memory in the receiver's memory. Therefore, it is correct to speak of "information interaction" in people, and of "communication" in technical systems. I am attaching a slide from my lecture at the IS4SI
2025 Summit, which contains the brilliant thought of the Bulgarian poet Pencho Slaveykov, expressed more than a century ago.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12.65pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">With respect,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Krassimir<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12.65pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Error! Filename not specified.</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12.65pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QTuKkbEq3o-edqcFbLUT6Fj6mBkdCrLywyifmxx0aOnY7XGPCXlscdrBh4P_vF2wg7E_72E8WBjjtvbtkLc$" target="_blank"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black;text-decoration:none">Error!
Filename not specified.</span></b></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:13.5pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Virus-free.<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QTuKkbEq3o-edqcFbLUT6Fj6mBkdCrLywyifmxx0aOnY7XGPCXlscdrBh4P_vF2wg7E_72E8WBjjtvbtkLc$" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">www.avast.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<pre><span style="color:black">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">Fis mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">----------<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black"><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">http://listas.unizar.es</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">----------<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">_______________________________________________<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Fis mailing list<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
----------<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">http://listas.unizar.es</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
----------<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">_______________________________________________<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Fis mailing list<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
----------<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:<a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">http://listas.unizar.es</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
----------<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></a><br>
----------<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</span></a><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">http://listas.unizar.es</span></a><br>
----------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
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</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
Fis@listas.unizar.es<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"><span style="color:black">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></a><br>
----------<br>
INFORMACI�N SOBRE PROTECCI�N DE DATOS DE CAR�CTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la informaci�n sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:
<a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">
<span style="color:black">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</span></a><br>
Recuerde que si est� suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicaci�n en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es"><span style="color:black">http://listas.unizar.es</span></a><br>
----------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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