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Dear Lou, dear colleagues,</div>
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Thank you for posting the 1974 Varela, Maturana, and Uribe paper — it is extremely helpful to have the discussion re-anchored in the original formulation.</div>
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I fully agree with the point you emphasise: autopoietic systems are not materially or energetically closed. They exist only through continuous exchange with their environment, while preserving an organisational invariance across that exchange. The simple protocell
model in the paper remains one of the clearest demonstrations of this idea.</div>
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This is also the sense in which I use expressions such as O ≈ F(O): not as a claim about self-containment, energetic closure, or perpetual motion, but as a shorthand for organisational persistence across transformation. I should probably make that explicit
more often, as the notation clearly invites misreadings.</div>
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For avoidance of doubt, Autopoietic Ecology does not treat autopoiesis as a universal or exclusive explanatory principle. It treats it as one type of organisational dynamic that becomes interesting precisely when systems are open, fragile, metabolically dependent,
and capable of breakdown as well as persistence. The ecological emphasis is meant to foreground coupling, constraint, and reorganisation rather than purity or closure.</div>
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I appreciate your reminder of how carefully these distinctions were drawn in the original work. It helps keep the discussion focused on what autopoiesis was actually intended to say — and what later extensions should remain accountable to.</div>
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Warm regards,</div>
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Steve</div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Fis <fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Louis Kauffman <loukau@gmail.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 13, 2025 5:43:58 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> fis@listas.unizar.es <fis@listas.unizar.es><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Current remarks/Autopoiesis</font>
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<div>
<div dir="ltr">It is still worth while to read the original paper by Maturana, Varela and Uribe.
<div><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://monoskop.org/images/d/dd/Varela_Maturana_Uribe_1974_Autopoiesis.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WyWMlWnFm0o4ncLeSN2bah-w8NstuK2jGIYI4dDC6K3eiM--0f70muEN4SkRLS50fLMhSd0qnVj-BUy1$" originalsrc="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://monoskop.org/images/d/dd/Varela_Maturana_Uribe_1974_Autopoiesis.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WyWMlWnFm0o4ncLeSN2bah-w8NstuK2jGIYI4dDC6K3eiM--0f70muEN4SkRLS50fLMhSd0qnVj-BUy1$">https://monoskop.org/images/d/dd/Varela_Maturana_Uribe_1974_Autopoiesis.pdf</a></div>
<div>Here is a link to that paper.</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 3:16 PM Pedro C. Marijuán <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
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<div>Dear List,</div>
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<div>When I hear on autopiesis, my impression is that many people continue to be blindly tied to a conceptualization, interesting in its origins and counterpoise to then dominant reductionist stances, but inconsequential with its biological-cellular grounding
--even in that very time, but even more in our times. I argued past months on the AP weakness regarding apoptosis & protein degradation, many genes rarely expressed along the life cycle, openness to obtain foreign dna from the environment, plasmids & phages
uptake, horizontal gene transmission, multiple generation of gene novelties, sex & recombinations, etc. About information in AP, "signaling" is not accepted as such, but as "structural coupling with the niche" (so, nothing about an external information flow
or the like). About the obvious need of, say, an energy flow there is no realization that a previous sensing of ALL those items is needed. The revolution in prokaryotic signaling brought by the discovery of "One Component Systems" (in the hundreds in each
bacteria) in last two decades clarify that point--how the external substances are first "tasted" and later introjected. The interception of an information flow best adapted to the ongoing life cycle is continuously made. So, the living cell is just "informational":
in its self-production, in its relationship with the environment, and in its generation of multi-cell complexity.</div>
<div>To be continued one of these days.</div>
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<div>Best regards,</div>
<div>--Pedro</div>
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<div> . El 10/12/2025 a las 23:08, Krassimir Markov escribió:<br>
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<span style="color:black">Dear Steve,</span></p>
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<span style="color:black">I respect your opinion and understanding of the world through AE, but still there are some reasonable scientific boundaries that should not be crossed. Here is a small example.
</span></p>
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<span style="color:black">Air existed before we were born and, I hope, if there is no destructive war instigated by russia, it will continue to exist after our death. At the same time, without air we cannot live, i.e. we are an open system that constantly exchanges
resources with the environment. In other words, living organisms are not autopoietic systems. To convince yourself of this statement, just stop breathing. The conviction in the truth of the statement will come to you only after a minute or two and you will
probably accept that your operator should be written</span></p>
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<span style="color:black">O=F(O, Input, Output).</span></p>
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<span style="color:black">I am writing this in connection with your statement that "Material processes and interpretive activity are not alternatives; they are two sides of the same ecological dynamic. Neither can be shown to precede the other.” which I cannot
accept as true.</span></p>
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<span style="color:black">Just as there are no closed autopoietic systems, so there is no reality that cannot exist without interpretation.</span></p>
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<span style="color:black">The ecological dynamic you are talking about is a mental structure and, of course, in it properly the mental structures that reflect the material processes and the mental structures that interpret them are dialectically connected in
consciousness, and yes - they are two sides of a common mental structure, if we can even talk about sides in mental structures.</span></p>
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<span style="color:black"> </span></p>
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<span style="color:black">Dear Eric,</span></p>
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<span style="color:black">I completely agree with your thoughts. Indeed, the study of the processes of interaction between people is very important and has great significance. Unfortunately, my impression is that most researchers adhere to the deeply erroneous
and inapplicable to humans Shannon's paradigm.</span></p>
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<span style="color:black">Yes, the theory of signal transmission is wonderfully applied in technical data transmission systems, where the basic principle is "copy/paste". In other words, the image that is formed in the recipient's memory completely (100%!!!)
coincides with the image in the sender's memory. Any deviation is considered an error and requires re-sending the data, as well as the application of error-resistant codes during transmission.</span></p>
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<span style="color:black">In humans, this is absolutely impossible and inapplicable. "Copy/paste" cannot happen due to the nature of the interaction between people, which is at the level of meaning, and not at the level of signals (reflections). The sender
(a person or group of people) externalizes their mental structures (for example, this letter), and the recipient reflects what they have received and gives it their own meaning. It is impossible in this process to obtain an exact copy of the image from the
source's memory in the receiver's memory. Therefore, it is correct to speak of "information interaction" in people, and of "communication" in technical systems. I am attaching a slide from my lecture at the IS4SI 2025 Summit, which contains the brilliant thought
of the Bulgarian poet Pencho Slaveykov, expressed more than a century ago.</span></p>
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<span style="color:black">With respect,</span></p>
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<span style="color:black">Krassimir</span></p>
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