<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Dear Folks,</div>There seems here to be a misunderstanding about the meaning of autopoietic systems.<div class=""><br class=""><div class="">Such systems always exist in some environment, getting their “parts” from that environment and returning some “parts” to the environment. What an equation like O ~ F(O) can mean is that the system structure is O and F is the process that happens to the system in relation to the environment. When we say that O ~ F(O) we mean that the structure is persevered across this process. We do not mean that the system is self-contained. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Look at the original paper by Maturana, Uribe and Varela and particularly look at their very simple and profound model for autopoeisis consisting of an environment of “molecules” of two types: Ordinary molecules that have a probability of linking with one another in pairs. Catalysts whose proximity promotes linkage. Then in the course of time, protocells consisting of families of linked molecules, form around the catalysts. With the right balance of probabilities, these protocells maintain their spherical or circular structure over time, while losing and gaining individual molecules and even losing and gaining catalysts. Thus the structure of being spherical protocell remains ‘fixed’ across the vicissitudes of the molecular processes. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This example is meant to be exemplary of the idea of autopoesis where a structure can arise in an evironment and become self-sustaining in relation to its own properties of renewal and use of that environment. Behind autopoieisis is a general lesson about what is possible in the notion of sustainability of systems and their environments.</div><div class="">Best,</div><div class="">Lou Kauffman<br class=""><div class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 10, 2025, at 4:08 PM, Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com" class="">itheaiss@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="" class="">Dear Steve,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="" class="">I respect your opinion and understanding of the world through AE, but
still there are some reasonable scientific boundaries that should not be
crossed. Here is a small example. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="" class="">Air existed before we were born and, I hope, if there is no destructive
war instigated by russia, it will continue to exist after our death. At the
same time, without air we cannot live, i.e. we are an open system that
constantly exchanges resources with the environment. In other words, living
organisms are not autopoietic systems. To convince yourself of this statement,
just stop breathing. The conviction in the truth of the statement will come to
you only after a minute or two and you will probably accept that your operator
should be written</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="" class="">O=F(O, Input, Output).</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="" class="">I am writing this in connection with your statement that "Material
processes and interpretive activity are not alternatives; they are two sides of
the same ecological dynamic. Neither can be shown to precede the other.” which
I cannot accept as true.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="" class="">Just as there are no closed autopoietic systems, so there is no reality
that cannot exist without interpretation.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="" class="">The ecological dynamic you are
talking about is a mental structure and, of course, in it properly the mental
structures that reflect the material processes and the mental structures that
interpret them are dialectically connected in consciousness, and yes - they are
two sides of a common mental structure, if we can even talk about sides in
mental structures.</span></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="" class="">Dear Eric,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="" class="">I completely agree with your thoughts. Indeed, the study of the
processes of interaction between people is very important and has great
significance. Unfortunately, my impression is that most researchers adhere to
the deeply erroneous and inapplicable to humans Shannon's paradigm.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="" class="">Yes, the theory of signal transmission is wonderfully applied in
technical data transmission systems, where the basic principle is
"copy/paste". In other words, the image that is formed in the
recipient's memory completely (100%!!!) coincides with the image in the
sender's memory. Any deviation is considered an error and requires re-sending
the data, as well as the application of error-resistant codes during
transmission.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="" class="">In humans, this is absolutely impossible and inapplicable.
"Copy/paste" cannot happen due to the nature of the interaction
between people, which is at the level of meaning, and not at the level of
signals (reflections). The sender (a person or group of people) externalizes
their mental structures (for example, this letter), and the recipient reflects
what they have received and gives it their own meaning. It is impossible in
this process to obtain an exact copy of the image from the source's memory in
the receiver's memory. Therefore, it is correct to speak of "information
interaction" in people, and of "communication" in technical systems. I am
attaching a slide from my lecture at the IS4SI 2025 Summit, which contains the
brilliant thought of the Bulgarian poet Pencho Slaveykov, expressed more than a
century ago.</span></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="" class="">With respect,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="" class="">Krassimir</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="" class=""><br class=""></span></p><span id="cid:ii_mj0k0u0b0"><image.png></span><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><br class=""></p></div><div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" class=""><br class=""><table style="border-top:1px solid #d3d4de" class=""><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td style="width:55px;padding-top:13px" class=""><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QTuKkbEq3o-edqcFbLUT6Fj6mBkdCrLywyifmxx0aOnY7XGPCXlscdrBh4P_vF2wg7E_72E8WBjjtvbtkLc$" target="_blank" class=""><img src="https://s-install.avcdn.net/ipm/preview/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;" class=""></a></td><td style="width:470px;padding-top:12px;color:#41424e;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:18px" class="">Virus-free.<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QTuKkbEq3o-edqcFbLUT6Fj6mBkdCrLywyifmxx0aOnY7XGPCXlscdrBh4P_vF2wg7E_72E8WBjjtvbtkLc$" target="_blank" style="color:#4453ea" class="">www.avast.com</a></td></tr></tbody></table><a href="x-msg://48/#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1" class=""></a></div>
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