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Dear colleagues,</div>
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I’ve been following the recent exchange with great interest. What strikes me is not only the substantive biological claims—gravity, controlnomes, signalling architectures, virome-mediated evolution—but also the way these claims talk past one another.</div>
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>From an autopoietic/ecological point of view, this is not accidental:</div>
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Different biological theories operate as different explanatory ecologies.</div>
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They select different invariants, emphasise different enabling constraints, and stabilise different kinds of explanations.</div>
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• In John’s work, gravity functions as a global physical constraint that organisms must internalise through physiological adaptations.</div>
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• In Eric’s controlnome framework, the emphasis falls on morphogenetic information architectures and their capacity to specify complex form.</div>
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• In Pedro’s contribution, signalling, viromes, and metabolic cycles become evolutionary scaffolding mechanisms.</div>
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>From an AE perspective, none of these are “wrong”—they simply arise from different organisational closures, each foregrounding a different set of perturbations that the system treats as explanatory.</div>
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This helps explain why the discussion becomes heated:</div>
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each framework does not just propose a different mechanism; it proposes a different selection of relevance.</div>
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A system organised around morphogenetic information will necessarily treat gravity as insufficient.</div>
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A system organised around physical constraints on physiology will treat gene-centric explanations as incomplete.</div>
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A system organised around signalling ecologies will treat both as partial.</div>
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Rather than forcing these perspectives into competition, we might ask:</div>
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What are the enabling constraints each theory reveals, and how do these constraints couple in the evolution of multicellular life?</div>
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>From that angle:</div>
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• gravity provides long-range energetic and mechanical constraints,</div>
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• signalling cycles provide organisational coherence,</div>
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• virome activity provides genomic plasticity,</div>
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• and morphogenetic control architectures provide form-specifying rules.</div>
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Each describes a different layer of the evolutionary ecology.</div>
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Approaching the discussion in this way may help us see complementarities rather than contradictions and may allow the conversation to move forward without diminishing the genuine insights each perspective offers.</div>
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Warm regards,</div>
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Steve</div>
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<span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_MSFontService, -apple-system, Roboto, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Sent from
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://aka.ms/o0ukef__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QzqhOsw2ivEh9pfooPYJ3TJQqHpTX07OLRdh63uCc_8EYyMJcd_TFEexXwahVBhKoUk7iMeYHR_q73WMeFZC$">Outlook for iOS</a></span></div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Fis <fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es> on behalf of JOHN TORDAY <jtorday@ucla.edu><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 3, 2025 1:54:03 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dr. Eric Werner <evwerner@gmail.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com>; fis <fis@listas.unizar.es><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Fwd: Contingency biological signals: Sex and Being</font>
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<div>Dear Eric and 'All', it appears to be a 'fool's task' to debate the merits of the role of the force of gravity in the evolution of vertebrates, given that I have not only provided empiric evidence for it, as have others, but have described the process
in an earlier email.....John</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">On Wed, Dec 3, 2025 at 3:38 AM Dr. Eric Werner <<a href="mailto:evwerner@gmail.com">evwerner@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
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<div dir="auto">Dear Pedro, John and FIS Collegues,
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<div>Fascinating points you make, Pedro. </div>
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<div>The paper by <span style="color:rgb(20,20,19); font-family:"DM Sans",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size:20px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Zhizhou Zhang </span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.20935/AcadMolBioGen8001__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UusxFDTBk3ZUgkvJ1A6efTRkbVH1ghY7Hqm_3tckntBOt0NwXJpwRR3yOZ0vQsEj9vRbkhxP9L0TnovknBDPEK5Ao7cg$" originalsrc="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.20935/AcadMolBioGen8001__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UusxFDTBk3ZUgkvJ1A6efTRkbVH1ghY7Hqm_3tckntBOt0NwXJpwRR3yOZ0vQsEj9vRbkhxP9L0TnovknBDPEK5Ao7cg$" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.20935/AcadMolBioGen8001</a> is
provocative indeed. The gene centric focus of the paper is foundational for its provocative hypothesis that we humans are mentally closer to fish than chimps. While it may be genetically valid, it ignores the other 95% of the genome that is not genetic,
and instead noncoding the so called dark matter of the genome. </div>
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<div>The noncoding genome is what I have argued contains the CONTROLNOME of the genome that actually controls and development of the morphology, the form and functional architecture of the multicellular species in question. The complexity of form of the organism
cannot be in the genes because the genes are shared by organisms that have overt highly complex different forms. (And gravity cannot account for the difference, John, because it is obviously shared by all life forms on our dear planet.) </div>
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<div>The difference between the gene-coding genome and the controlnome, has parallels between the difference between semantics and pragmatics, between sentences that are true or false and those that are neither, like questions and commands. This parallel relationship
between genome semantics and pragmatics and human language as well as other animal communications system semantics and pragmatics is no artificial construct but results from fundamental principles of how information works in living systems. </div>
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<div>The attempts to reduce the complexity of multicellular development to point mutations in shared genes, or to gravity, or to cell signaling or other physiological feedback mechanisms all fail the Complexity Conservation Principle (see my Ants paper and
How central is the genome paper). And then there is meta-sex complexity of meta-genome interactions (see my gynandromorphs paper).</div>
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<div>Best regards,</div>
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<div>Eric</div>
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<blockquote type="cite">On Dec 2, 2025, at 8:19 PM, Pedro C. Marijuán <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
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<p>Dear John and FIS Colleagues,</p>
<p>Thanks for the well crafted, dense bio paragraphs. Although I agree with most of the comments --not with all-- the main problem I see that it is a really too condensed a summary. It reminds me the great little book by French biologist Max Pavans de Ceccatty
"La vie: de la cellule à l'homme" (1962), put in just half page. Given the brevity needed, I will just point to three extra themes that for my taste are relevant: signaling and the life cycle, role of the "virome" in eukaryotic complexity and multicellular
life, and the tangled threads of Anthropogenesis. </p>
<p>The former one, signaling and the life cycle, represents "the path not taken" about the deep meaning of cellular signaling. From the beginning it was conceived within the input-processing-output paradigm of techno-computer and artificial systems. It did
not help the concept of signaling as "structural coupling" with the milieu, from the thought of Maturana and Varela. In any event, the information flow (signaling) necessary interrelationship with the energy flow (metabolism) has not been properly integrated
with the great sink and source for both flows: the life cycle. Perhaps making the cycle "modular", and susceptible to be maintained conveniently "frozen" along its different phases, represented the basis of cell differentiation & specialized tissues via signaling
codes... Further, any complex form of life has had to maintain the same openness to the info flows of its niche in order to propel the advancement of its own life cycle. And let me stop here.</p>
<p>About the virome, following Villareal, Witzany, and many others, the motto "Ex virus omnia" means that a new, forgotten realm of life has to be added to Margulis’ endosymbiotic theory (Margulis, 1981, 1970), so incorporating viruses’ essential evolutionary
role within the present discussions around the renewal or replacement of evolutionary theory (Noble, 2016). In fact, one the most important genome modifications of eukaryotes has come from the systematic activity of components of viral provenance: mobile elements,
transposons, retrotransposons, repetitive elements and so on. Seemingly (Shapiro) our species has counted with around 4 million mobile insertion events. As a result, ancestral viral proteins can be found in signaling pathways of all kind, and all across the
mammalian and human proteomes. </p>
<p>And finally about Anthropogenesis, let me copy from a recent study: "By employing 471 whole-genome sequence samples, including archaic humans (Neanderthals, Denisovans and more), modern humans, other vertebrates (fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, rodents,
mammals) plus four coelacanth and three lungfish samples, together with 18 human cognition-related genes and their total of 223 SNVs (Single-Nucleotide Variations),comparative analyses revealed that the CGPPs (cognition gene polymorphism patterns) of both
coelacanths and lungfish are evolutionarily closer to those of archaic humans than those of most other animal groups. The CGPP appears to occupy an evolutionary inflection point, bridging diverse animal lineages to archaic hominoids. Our observational results
suggest a hypothesis (to be validated in the future) that <b>the genetic architecture underlying human cognition seems to have been established during the evolutionary stage of fish, predating the emergence of tetrapods</b>..." Amazing!! (From Zhizhou Zhang
et al., 2025, <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.20935/AcadMolBioGen8001__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UusxFDTBk3ZUgkvJ1A6efTRkbVH1ghY7Hqm_3tckntBOt0NwXJpwRR3yOZ0vQsEj9vRbkhxP9L0TnovknBDPEK5Ao7cg$" originalsrc="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.20935/AcadMolBioGen8001__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UusxFDTBk3ZUgkvJ1A6efTRkbVH1ghY7Hqm_3tckntBOt0NwXJpwRR3yOZ0vQsEj9vRbkhxP9L0TnovknBDPEK5Ao7cg$" target="_blank">
https://doi.org/10.20935/AcadMolBioGen8001</a>). By the way, there is a special issue on Anthropogenesis to appear soon in BioSystems, where brain evolution, sexual selection, social niche, emergence of language, cognition, etc. are updated and discussed (editors
Marijuan, Igamberdiev, Iurato, 2025)--great job by Andrei. We will send soon the link.</p>
<p>Best regards,</p>
<p>--Pedro</p>
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<div>El 23/11/2025 a las 18:20, JOHN TORDAY escribió:<br>
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<div><font size="4">Dear Eric, I am afraid you have misunderstood my allusion to the role gravity plays in evolution, in my opinion, based totally on experimental evidence. It becomes most apparent and relevant in the vertebrate transition from water to land,
when fish adapted to land (a known fact). During that transition there were three hormone receptors that duplicated- the Parathyroid Hormone Receptor (PTHrP), the Glucocorticoid Receptor (GR) and the beta-adrenergic receptor (beta-AR). Which came first is
the question I have pondered for many years, only recently coming to the realization that it must have been the PTHrP receptor that duplicated first, given that it determines bone 'stiffness', and the skeleton would have been under stress due to the effective
force of gravity on land versus in water. Those members of the species that were able to 'up-regulate' their PTHrP receptor most readily for bone would have done so successively in the swim bladder to drive its evolution in becoming the lung, as evidenced
by the fact that in the absence of PTHrP the lung does not alveolarize (Rubin et al, 2004), followed by the role of PTHrP in forming kidney glomeruli from the fish kidney glomus, and the augmentation of the stress signal from pituitary to adrenal cortex to
produce adrenaline and cortisol. We know that there must have been such a scenario since fish attempted to breech land on at least 5 separate occasions (see Clack, J.A., Gaining Ground, 2012). The relevance of these physiologic adaptations can be seen in astronauts
who experience osteoporosis due to PTHrP deficiency (see Torday, 2003 for evidence of such) as well as kidney complications due to down-regulation of PTHrP control of salt and water balance. So in the aggregate, in reply to your comment that "gravity would
not directly control the growth of a bilateral gynandromorph that is half female and half male down the middle", I would beg to differ based on</font><span style="font-size:large"> the hormonal adaptations for land life, which are fundamental to land vertebrate
physiologic adaptations for skeletal integrity, breathing, salt and water balance, if you get my point. And all of these physiologic traits are essential for the bipedalism that freed our forelimbs for tool-making, including speaking, and locomotion, all of
which are under the control of the FoxP2 gene and are 'housed' within the Area of Broca (</span><font size="4">see <span style="color:rgb(33,33,33); font-family:system-ui,-apple-system,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Oxygen,Ubuntu,Cantarell,"Fira Sans","Droid Sans","Helvetica Neue",sans-serif">Torday
JS. A central theory of biology. Med Hypotheses. 2015 Jul;85(1):49-57)</span></font><span style="font-size:large">. It is this transition from crawling on all fours to standing on two legs due to the advent of endothermy that marks the evolution of our over-seized
central nervous system....and as a consequence, at some point in human evolution our heads became too large to fit in the birth canal so we are born prematurely, with only 25% of brain capacity, requiring decades of nurturing by family and society in order
to effectively mature as a species, if ever (I note my current President). </span></div>
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<div><span style="font-size:large">As for your glib comment abou</span><font size="4">t "The issue is more understanding the information that makes a difference (Oh dear I have slipped into Spencer Brown"......In this regard, I think you misunderstand Spencer-Brown
too in that what he was telling us is that we are fractals of a 'holism' as the unmarked space.</font></div>
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<div><font size="4">And as for your flippant comment about "gravity does not make the difference between a whale and a dog" I again beg your pardon, but gravity is exactly what makes the difference between a whale and a dog, referring again to gravity's effects
on the physiologic traits of each on land (dog) and in water (whale) given that seals are thought to have evolved back to water from dogs......</font></div>
<div><font size="4"><br>
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<div><font size="4">But you may take exception to what I am saying, so have at it. I am of the opinion that the way I have traced evolution from cell to our 'selves' accounts for the evolution of consciousness from the former to the latter as I have expressed
in numerous peer-reviewed articles, and 14 monographs.</font></div>
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<div><font size="4">Best, John</font></div>
<div><span style="font-size:large"> </span></div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">On Sun, Nov 23, 2025 at 11:11 AM OARF <<a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" target="_blank">eric.werner@oarf.org</a>> wrote:<br>
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<div dir="auto">Dear john,
<div>There is a difference between necessary conditions that are just that and offer no information that controls the growth of detailed structure in multicellular organisms that differentiates one from another and conditions like gravity that apply to all
such developmental processes. Thus, for example, gravity would not directly control the growth of a bilateral gynandromorph that is half female and half male down the middle. See: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://arxiv.org/abs/1212.5439__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UusxFDTBk3ZUgkvJ1A6efTRkbVH1ghY7Hqm_3tckntBOt0NwXJpwRR3yOZ0vQsEj9vRbkhxP9L0TnovknBDPEDwcoYq4$" originalsrc="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://arxiv.org/abs/1212.5439__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UusxFDTBk3ZUgkvJ1A6efTRkbVH1ghY7Hqm_3tckntBOt0NwXJpwRR3yOZ0vQsEj9vRbkhxP9L0TnovknBDPEDwcoYq4$" target="_blank">https://arxiv.org/abs/1212.5439</a> for
more details. </div>
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<div>But I agree that gravity and oxygen certainly have their effects on development. </div>
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<div>The issue is more understanding the information that makes a difference (Oh dear I have slipped into Spencer Brown ;-) ).</div>
<div>and gravity does not make the difference between a whale and a dog.</div>
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<div>Best,</div>
<div>Eric</div>
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<blockquote type="cite">On Nov 23, 2025, at 3:05 PM, JOHN TORDAY <<a href="mailto:jtorday@ucla.edu" target="_blank">jtorday@ucla.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
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<div><font size="4">To Eric, Gordana, Howard, regarding the role of sex in evolution, I would like to point out that the role of gravity in evolution also entails sex in the following way. In the study of the effect of microgravity on yeast, the simplest eukaryote,
they cannot 'bud' as form of asexual reproduction in microgravitational conditions (<span style="color:rgb(33,33,33); font-family:system-ui,-apple-system,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Oxygen,Ubuntu,Cantarell,"Fira Sans","Droid Sans","Helvetica Neue",sans-serif">Purevdorj-Gage
B, Sheehan KB, Hyman LE. Effects of low-shear modeled microgravity on cell function, gene expression, and phenotype in Saccharomyces cerevisiae. Appl Environ Microbiol. 2006 Jul;72(7):4569-75). I am of the opinion that it is only in addressing the evolutionary
ontology as it corresponds with the epistemology that an adaptive trait can be understood, as in the case of sex as a means of adapting to an ever-changing environment. In the case of yeast, budding is a means of epigenetic inheritance of environmental factors
relevant to its adaptation, and the force of gravity affects that process. These authors also observed that the yeast could not conduct a calcium flux under microgravity, rendering them unconscious 'zombies'. I share this information with you in an attempt
to find a final common pathway for the process of evolution, ultimately referring to the elements in the Cosmos as the latter's 'logic', as I expressed it in an accompanying email earlier today....Best, John</span></font></div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">On Sun, Nov 23, 2025 at 8:13 AM OARF <<a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" target="_blank">eric.werner@oarf.org</a>> wrote:<br>
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<div dir="auto"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0); background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Hi Gordana,</span>
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<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">I was just responding to Howard’s more general point beyond bacteria. Eukaryotes have sex an inherently social process. Sexuality is fundamentally a cooperative process, at many levels of organization. Even social at the level
of the genome: See my theory of meta-genome interactions between the sexes. It is particularly clear in the case physically mixed sex organisms (this can be neurological as well). See the theory applied to mixed sex organisms or gynandropmorphs: </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://arxiv.org/abs/1212.5439__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XLF-Q-SqJ-AuvQ-dic9ptw82Ooe57dI4UX6ePa7CTWADakJMPTruAnfSd0yTCHhsfb-S3Rv04mCA4h3ClsatzQ4$" originalsrc="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://arxiv.org/abs/1212.5439__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XLF-Q-SqJ-AuvQ-dic9ptw82Ooe57dI4UX6ePa7CTWADakJMPTruAnfSd0yTCHhsfb-S3Rv04mCA4h3ClsatzQ4$" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(37,37,255)">https://arxiv.org/abs/1212.5439</a></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">So the sexuality of being is inherently social. </div>
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<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">-Eric</div>
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<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ericwerner.com/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XLF-Q-SqJ-AuvQ-dic9ptw82Ooe57dI4UX6ePa7CTWADakJMPTruAnfSd0yTCHhsfb-S3Rv04mCA4h3CaUt82MM$" originalsrc="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ericwerner.com/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XLF-Q-SqJ-AuvQ-dic9ptw82Ooe57dI4UX6ePa7CTWADakJMPTruAnfSd0yTCHhsfb-S3Rv04mCA4h3CaUt82MM$" target="_blank">https://www.ericwerner.com/</a></div>
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<div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPad</div>
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