<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">Dear Mark,<div><br></div><div><div>You make an important point: The relationship between information and action. </div><div><br></div><div>The Halls of Logic which I grew up in, ignored this question. It was only later influenced by Wittgenstein and Habermas, that I realized the fundamental limits of any theory of communication that restricts itself to assertions that are true or false. The vast majority of sentences are neither true or false. This led me to a formalization of the semantics and pragmatics of speech acts and Wittgensteinian language games. Here statements are interpreted as operators on the representational state of agents (much like QM operators on a Hilbert space, except to include actions and intentions). </div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.tark.org/proceedings/tark_mar7_88/p129-werner.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WrAcJpJKZ0rWThGEIRViv3pWhQHut9p2YEQvDB0nFVQgC9F8_Jp68LX-zQc3nDbZhZpSw4gbnVI1wr2irkspKjc$">http://www.tark.org/proceedings/tark_mar7_88/p129-werner.pdf</a></div><div><br></div><div>In my theory of communication I extended von Neumann’s game-theoretic notion of uncertainty of state via information sets to uncertainty about actions and more generally strategies. This allows the formalization of intentions of agents and also cooperation between agents via communication of state and strategic information. </div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/chapter/edited-volume/abs/pii/B9781558600928500058__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WrAcJpJKZ0rWThGEIRViv3pWhQHut9p2YEQvDB0nFVQgC9F8_Jp68LX-zQc3nDbZhZpSw4gbnVI1wr2iaHh7xWQ$">https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/chapter/edited-volume/abs/pii/B9781558600928500058</a></div><div><br></div><div>Additionally, this formalization of strategic information, and its intimate interaction with state information, enables a foundational architecture for artificial social intelligence. </div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://arxiv.org/pdf/2505.07847__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WrAcJpJKZ0rWThGEIRViv3pWhQHut9p2YEQvDB0nFVQgC9F8_Jp68LX-zQc3nDbZhZpSw4gbnVI1wr2iAL0ErLc$">https://arxiv.org/pdf/2505.07847</a></div><div><br></div><div>But, you may have a very different perspective. Still, the theme that you address has many ramifications. </div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Eric</div><div><br></div><div dir="ltr">————-</div><div dir="ltr"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ericwerner.com/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WrAcJpJKZ0rWThGEIRViv3pWhQHut9p2YEQvDB0nFVQgC9F8_Jp68LX-zQc3nDbZhZpSw4gbnVI1wr2ir7TYP10$">https:/ericwerner.com</a> </div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Nov 25, 2025, at 9:42 PM, Mark Johnson <johnsonmwj1@gmail.com> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="auto"><div>Dear all,</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">The problem with information is that, barring Shannon (which is a special case), it lacks operationalisability. Shannon gives us a way of counting - which is analogous to Ashby's law of requisite variety (Ashby acknowledged this), and it clearly works for communication networks. It is a curiosity for social communication (leaving many questions), and even more so for art or music. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Surely we need a new way of thinking which can be operationalised? That is the spirit of the paper I sent round. And the message is that we "measure" in order to organise ourselves better. Often today we see measurement used as a way of organising ourselves worse (think of Doge or Key Performance Indicators!). So we need an antidote.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I remain fascinated by Shannon but I am not convinced it is the way forwards. I see variations of it - in Leydesdorff (who I deeply respected), or in Friston - as algorithmic tweaks which lack ontological resonance. Our binary logic (bits) still gets in the way. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">So I come back to perception (which is what the paper is about). Perception is not information but behaviour. We do not "process" what we perceive, but act with it, as Gibson said. Bill Powers Perceptual Control Theory may be closer to the mark. If AI perceives as we do, that is important beyond information. It must be to do with movement and space, because space is essential to the behaviour of perceiving. There is, I suspect, a latent encoding of space in AI, just as there was an encoding of space in Ashby's "box" (see <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://constructivist.info/20/2/181.fischer__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!S_vWo3XbDlTqWOhMGqQ30dIDKIM6cIj8BJsfsncu-6hIiZoic3pav22nlYkEdr2zD3msykOOVUsJ3n5DI58XZZU$">https://constructivist.info/20/2/181.fischer</a> ). There is no space in Shannon, or in Friston, nor (ironically) in metaphors that talk of "infospace", phase space, etc. Metaphorical space is often little more than 2d vectors. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I think we need a simple operationalisable topology - an "iconic calculus of space" (I don't think this is Spencer-Brown, but perhaps that's a start, as is Joe Brenner's LIR). I am very drawn to Milo Beckman's brilliant "Math Without Numbers" ( <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://amzn.eu/d/9deAiZU__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!S_vWo3XbDlTqWOhMGqQ30dIDKIM6cIj8BJsfsncu-6hIiZoic3pav22nlYkEdr2zD3msykOOVUsJ3n5Dc-P0i4Y$">https://amzn.eu/d/9deAiZU</a>) as a starting point for this. Part of the answer to the challenge lies in understanding why Beckman's book is so ingenious and engaging. If we could speak and act in relation to biology, art, learning and organising in equally simple iconic ways, then I hope we would make some progress.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Best wishes</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Mark</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div><br></div><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">Dr. Mark William Johnson<br><div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health</div><div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">University of Manchester</div><div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><br></div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Department of Science Education</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">University of Copenhagen</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><br></div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Department of Eye and Vision Science (honorary)</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">University of Liverpool</div>Phone: 07786 064505<br>Email: <a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a><br>Blog: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!S_vWo3XbDlTqWOhMGqQ30dIDKIM6cIj8BJsfsncu-6hIiZoic3pav22nlYkEdr2zD3msykOOVUsJ3n5D7iTQWyM$" target="_blank">http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com</a></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 24 Nov 2025, 17:01 William Miller, <<a href="mailto:wbmiller1@cox.net">wbmiller1@cox.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:16px"><div></div>
<div dir="ltr">Kassimir, </div><div dir="ltr">I appreciated our astute comments. You might be interested to note that what you detailed is codified through the concept of infoautopoiesis, initiated by Jaime Cardenas-Garcia and emphasized by my work and our mutual papers. In this framework, all the information that any cell has of its external environment is the result of its internal measurement of received syntactic information from its receptors (syntactic information is stimuli resulting from matter-energy interactions devoid of intrinsic meaning). That received information, as a source of initial ambiguity, is measured internally by a cell for value as infocomputation for salience and valence, pertaining to its relationship to any cell's preferential state of flux). This is the cell's actual information (Effective Information, *EI) , which it has developed internally, which is the translation of syntactic information into semantic meaning-laden information that can be used by the cell for decision-making and problem-solving. A necessary correlate follows: all the information that any cell has is self-produced. Jaime and I regard this linkage as a fundamental aspect of the living frame.</div><div dir="ltr">Best regards, </div><div dir="ltr">Bill </div><div><br></div>
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On Monday, November 24, 2025 at 09:44:00 AM MST, Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">itheaiss@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
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<div><div id="m_-5559884125142445862yiv4561302943"><div dir="ltr"><font size="4">Dear Steve,<br>I was pleased to read your letter. You are very close to the definition of what we call "information", but you have not yet separated information as a result of its mention on a par with the causes.<br>In fact, things are quite simple - what you call a "signal" is a two-sided entity.<br>On the one hand, the environment affects the receptors, on the other hand, the receptors are activated and send impulses further into the body. Not all external influences are perceived as signals. For example, no matter how loudly you speak to a 100% deaf person, he will not register the arrival of signals from you.<br>Therefore, it is correct to talk not about "signals", but about "reflections". </font><div><font size="4">Only when the receptors reflect the impact, only then does a process begin that leads to the appearance of "information".<br>Any perceived reflection is "data" until it is recognized by the body.<br>It is precisely the recognized data that is information, i.e. information is data with meaning.<br>Further, if the information is fixed in the long-term memory of the organism, it becomes "knowledge".<br>Some organisms can externalize their knowledge and thus interact with others.<br>Well, in everyday jargon, usually, either out of ignorance or laziness, people use the word "information" to denote either data or externalized knowledge, for example, it is usually said "I collect information from sensors", while the correct one is "I collect data from sensors", as well as "I read a lot of information in the library today", instead of, "I gained a lot of knowledge in the library today".<br>As an illustration, I attach a slide from my presentation at the 7th International Conference on Philosophy of Information (ICPI 2025), which was part of IS4SI 2025 - The 2025 Summit of the International Society for the Study of Information, June 2025, In-person and on-line, Varna, Bulgaria.<br>With respect,<br>Krassimir<br></font></div><div><font size="4"><br></font></div><div><font size="4"><div><information.jpg></div></font><br></div></div><div id="m_-5559884125142445862yiv4561302943DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br><table style="border-top:1px solid #d3d4de"><tbody><tr><td style="width:55px;padding-top:13px"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SnSUVTGq82JXZZ5iU3CqHSH_E0M36YQHaq8oxVutgnu500m1ESsr-xivFzLX5s_r57G_k_SIzN58O0SSxy8$" rel="noreferrer noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img src="https://s-install.avcdn.net/ipm/preview/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width:46px;min-height:29px" data-unique-identifier=""></a></td><td style="width:470px;padding-top:12px;color:#41424e;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:18px">Virus-free.<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SnSUVTGq82JXZZ5iU3CqHSH_E0M36YQHaq8oxVutgnu500m1ESsr-xivFzLX5s_r57G_k_SIzN58O0SSxy8$" style="color:#4453ea" rel="noreferrer noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">www.avast.com</a></td></tr></tbody></table><a href="#m_-5559884125142445862_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" rel="noreferrer noopener noreferrer"></a></div>
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