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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dear John,</span><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Thank you for your stimulating contribution, and for drawing attention to the foundational role of energy, gravity, and quantum effects in biological
systems. </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Your view offers an important reminder of the rich physical substrate from which life emerges.</span><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">From the perspective of info-computationalism, nature is understood as a computing system where all processes are different kinds of computation
and all structures are information. This framing </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">provides</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
an epistemological orientation—computation and information are observer-relative; they depend on how agents interact with, measure, and make sense of the world.</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">That said, epistemology is inseparably connected to ontology—the physical substrate upon which information-processing (i.e., knowing) takes
place. In that substrate, four fundamental forces</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
<span lang="EN-GB">(</span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">strong, weak, electromagnetic, and gravitationa</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">l)
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">each
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">come
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">with different ranges and strengths.
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">There's no reason to assume that life somehow escapes any of these; rather, different forces become more or less significant depending on scale, structure,
and context.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Biological systems, which operate within a certain range of size, energy, and complexity, tend to be dominated by electromagnetic interactions,
chemical bonding, and ion flows. </span><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Yet as you point out, gravitational and quantum effects may play important roles—gravitation in setting preconditions for life (planetary environments,
stability), and quantum in certain sensitive processes where other forces cancel or balance, allowing finer-scale dynamics to dominate locally.</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">In this view, info-computationalism does not deny or minimize the substrate—rather, it treats substrate dynamics as epistemologically accessible
through computation. What we call “knowledge” is the agent-based, computational modeling of these underlying physical processes.
</span><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Thus, life and cognition emerge not through any single privileged force, but through the dynamic interplay of multiple physical processes, integrated
and interpreted through embodied information flows.</span><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I find your emphasis on integrating these layers—from molecular memory to quantum homeostasis—highly valuable for continuing to enrich this
conversation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Best</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Gordana<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">JOHN TORDAY <jtorday@ucla.edu><br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, 2 June 2025 at 22:56<br>
<b>To: </b>Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se>, "goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de" <goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de>, Bill <wbmiller1@cox.net>, Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner@bluewin.ch>, fis <fis@listas.unizar.es><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Fis] Gravity, Holism, and Biological Information Processing--Bill Miller's contribution: the "It" of a machine, truth and trust<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Gordana, Tom, Bill, Joe, and fis, I would like to comment on your last email in<b> [brackets]....</b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"> </span><span style="font-size:13.5pt"> I would like to respond from the perspective of info-computationalism—an
approach that interprets nature as a network of morphological information-processing systems, across levels of organization, from physical to cognitive and social as presented in Dodig-Crnkovic, G. (2017) Nature as a Network of Morphological Infocomputational
Processes for Cognitive Agents, Eur. Phys. J. Special Topics, 226, 181–195. <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1140/epjst/e2016-60362-9__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QxLoTWFmwuSWgNKLVp0iFMzqdCYhYBJEHV9shxeIb_yL57jWnch--1FeJDrBIZRcm_6JQqdAP_UOq4bLnyMAXnxSm7BVNddq$">
https://doi.org/10.1140/epjst/e2016-60362-9</a><br>
<br>
In this framework: Information is structure, and computation is its dynamics. Life emerges from a succession of interrelated informational processes—beginning at the quantum level, but becoming most richly expressed in chemistry, bioelectricity, and embodied
cognition.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt">[With all due respect, in my opinion life emerges from the energy produced in reaction to the force of gravity (</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#212121">Torday
JS. Parathyroid hormone-related protein is a gravisensor in lung and bone cell biology. Adv Space Res. 2003;32(8):1569-76.</span></b><b><span style="font-size:18.0pt">) as the 'recoil' stored in lipid molecules that exhibit molecular hysteresis as memory.
There is information within the cell, but the cellular interactions with the environment are mediated by energy exchanges due to soluble growth factors and their receptors that elicit such information]</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:13.5pt"><br>
This view recognizes that no single level of organization explains the complexity of life or mind. Instead, reality consists of emergent strata, where higher levels retain dependence on—but are not reducible to—lower ones.<br>
While quantum effects may influence biology, they do not appear to dominate its dynamics.<br>
While gravity is necessary, chemical bonding, ion flows, and membrane potentials are dominant.<br>
<br>
Current technological computing is only a narrow subset of natural computation, and the information we manipulate is a subset of natural, embodied, and context-sensitive information.<br>
<br>
This is an observer-dependent agent-based framework, where epistemology and ontology are interwoven: what we understand as “matter and energy in space-time” is shaped by our models and means of observation.<br>
<br>
For my current views on consciousness as a biological phenomenon, please see: Dodig-Crnkovic, G. (2025). De-Anthropomorphizing the Mind: Life as a Cognitive Spectrum. A Unified Framework for Biological Minds. Preprint.
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.20944/preprints202503.1449.v2__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QxLoTWFmwuSWgNKLVp0iFMzqdCYhYBJEHV9shxeIb_yL57jWnch--1FeJDrBIZRcm_6JQqdAP_UOq4bLnyMAXnxSm0Q1LuFF$">https://doi.org/10.20944/preprints202503.1449.v2</a> There I argue for a non-anthropocentric, biologically grounded view of cognition, recognizing a spectrum of cognitive capacities across living systems.<br>
<br>
I believe this info-computational framework can serve as a bridge between physical foundations and the emergent complexity of life and mind—without resorting to either reductionism or mysticism.</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">I </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">woul</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">d
like to respond from the perspective of info-computationalism—an approach that interprets nature as a network of morphological information-processing systems, across levels of organization, from physical to cognitive and social </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">as
presented in </span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">Dodig-Crnkovic, </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">G. (</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">2017) Nature
as a Network of Morphological Infocomputational Processes for Cognitive Agents, Eur. Phys. J. Special Topics, 226, 181–195. <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/doi.org/10.1140/epjst/e2016-60362-9__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VFwo5U3iaF-5sSf6FPmlsPYL4XzL9ierjznjeMql2Ku8vp5D6dOUqA7Zr5k1mrM0GEz7IoUEEKBctMCvbeFZVMHO3421ID4F$" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1140/epjst/e2016-60362-9</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">In this framework:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">Information is structure, and computation is </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">its</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"> dynamics. Life
emerges from a succession of interrelated informational processes—beginning at the quantum level, but becoming most richly expressed in chemistry, bioelectricity, and embodied cognition.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">This view recognizes that no single level of organization explains the complexity of life or mind. Instead,
reality consists of emergent strata, where higher levels retain dependence on—but are not reducible to—lower ones.</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">While quantum effects may influence biology, they do not appear to dominate its dynamics. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">[In </span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#212121">Torday JS. Consciousness,
embodied Quantum Entanglement. Prog Biophys Mol Biol. 2023 Jan;177:125-128 I show the continuum from Symbiogenesis is classical mechanics to Quantum Entanglement in the Quantum realm based on cellular homeostatic control of energy. In that context, all homeostasis
is founded on the Quantum realm]</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">While gravity is necessary, chemical bonding, ion flows, and membrane potentials are </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">dominant</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">Current t</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">echnological
computing is only a narrow </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">subset</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"> of natural computation, and the information we manipulate
is a subset of natural, embodied, and context-sensitive information.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">This is an observer-dependent </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">agent-based </span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">framework,
where epistemology and ontology are interwoven: what we understand as “matter and energy in space-time” is shaped by our models and means of observation.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">[Symbiogenesis confers 'observer-observed' status on the cell </span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#212121">Torday
JS. The quantum cell. Prog Biophys Mol Biol. 2024 May;188:24-30]</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">For my current views on consciousness as a biological phenomenon, please see: Dodig-Crnkovic, G. (2025). De-Anthropomorphizing
the Mind: Life as a Cognitive Spectrum. A Unified Framework for Biological Minds. Preprint. <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/doi.org/10.20944/preprints202503.1449.v2__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VFwo5U3iaF-5sSf6FPmlsPYL4XzL9ierjznjeMql2Ku8vp5D6dOUqA7Zr5k1mrM0GEz7IoUEEKBctMCvbeFZVMHO3_ysfHK1$" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.20944/preprints202503.1449.v2</a> There
I argue for a non-anthropocentric, biologically grounded view of cognition, recognizing a spectrum of cognitive capacities across living systems.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">I believe this info-computational </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">framework</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"> can
serve as a bridge between physical foundations and the emergent complexity of life and mind—without resorting to either reductionism or mysticism.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><i><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">[I am of the opinion that cognition is the vertical integration of cell-molecular physiology, as local
consciousness, non-local consciousness being the way in which the mathematics of the Cosmos is assimilated in physiology symbiogenically, providing a common mathematics for the cell and the Cosmos (</span></i></b><b><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#212121">Torday
JS. The quantum cell. Prog Biophys Mol Biol. 2024 May;188:24-30)</span></b><b><i><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">] </span></i></b><i><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"> </span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">Respectfully, John</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">John S. Torday<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Professor of Pediatrics<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Obstetrics and Gynecology<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Evolutionary Medicine<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">UCLA<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i>Fellow, The European Academy of Science and Arts</i><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Jun 1, 2025 at 1:19<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>PM Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <<a href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">Dear
</span><span lang="SV" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">Thomas</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">Thank you for your detailed reflections on holism, gravity, and the foundations of life. I
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">woul</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">d like to respond from the perspective of info-computationalism—an approach that interprets nature as a network of morphological
information-processing systems, across levels of organization, from physical to cognitive and social
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">as presented in
</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">Dodig-Crnkovic, </span>
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">G. (</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">2017) Nature as a Network of Morphological Infocomputational Processes for Cognitive Agents, Eur. Phys. J. Special Topics, 226, 181–195.
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/doi.org/10.1140/epjst/e2016-60362-9__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VFwo5U3iaF-5sSf6FPmlsPYL4XzL9ierjznjeMql2Ku8vp5D6dOUqA7Zr5k1mrM0GEz7IoUEEKBctMCvbeFZVMHO3421ID4F$" target="_blank">
https://doi.org/10.1140/epjst/e2016-60362-9</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">In this framework:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">Information is structure, and computation is
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">its</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"> dynamics. Life emerges from a succession of interrelated informational processes—beginning at the quantum level, but becoming
most richly expressed in chemistry, bioelectricity, and embodied cognition. </span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">This view recognizes that no single level of organization explains the complexity of life or mind. Instead, reality consists
of emergent strata, where higher levels retain dependence on—<b>but are not reducible to</b>—lower ones.
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"><br>
</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">While quantum effects may influence biology, they do not appear to dominate its dynamics.
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"><br>
</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">While gravity is necessary, chemical bonding, ion flows, and membrane potentials are
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">dominant</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">Current t</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">echnological computing is only a narrow
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">subset</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"> of natural computation, and the information we manipulate is a subset of natural, embodied, and context-sensitive information.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">This is an observer-dependent
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">agent-based
</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">framework, where epistemology and ontology are interwoven: what we understand as “matter and energy in space-time” is shaped by our models and means of observation.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">For my current views on consciousness as a biological phenomenon, please see: Dodig-Crnkovic, G. (2025). De-Anthropomorphizing
the Mind: Life as a Cognitive Spectrum. A Unified Framework for Biological Minds. Preprint.
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/doi.org/10.20944/preprints202503.1449.v2__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VFwo5U3iaF-5sSf6FPmlsPYL4XzL9ierjznjeMql2Ku8vp5D6dOUqA7Zr5k1mrM0GEz7IoUEEKBctMCvbeFZVMHO3_ysfHK1$" target="_blank">
https://doi.org/10.20944/preprints202503.1449.v2</a> There I argue for a non-anthropocentric, biologically grounded view of cognition, recognizing a spectrum of cognitive capacities across living systems.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">I believe this info-computational
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">framework</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"> can serve as a bridge between physical foundations and the emergent complexity of life and mind—without resorting to
either reductionism or mysticism.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="SV" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">Best</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"> regards,</span><span lang="SV" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"><br>
Gordana</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">"Dr. Eric Werner" <<a href="mailto:evwerner@gmail.com" target="_blank">evwerner@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Sunday, 1 June 2025 at 16:58<br>
<b>To: </b>"<a href="mailto:goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de" target="_blank">goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de</a>" <<a href="mailto:goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de" target="_blank">goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>" <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>, "<a href="mailto:wbmiller1@cox.net" target="_blank">wbmiller1@cox.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:wbmiller1@cox.net" target="_blank">wbmiller1@cox.net</a>>,
"<a href="mailto:Michael.Levin@tufts.edu" target="_blank">Michael.Levin@tufts.edu</a>" <<a href="mailto:Michael.Levin@tufts.edu" target="_blank">Michael.Levin@tufts.edu</a>>, "<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>"
<<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>>, "<a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>>, Gordana
Dodig Crnkovic <<a href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se" target="_blank">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se</a>>, "<a href="mailto:goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de" target="_blank">goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de</a>" <<a href="mailto:goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de" target="_blank">goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Fis] Bill Miller's contribution: the "It" of a machine, truth and trust</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Excellent Tutorial Thomas!!!<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Please go into more detain on the relation of energy, matter and information and your difficult to understand (at least for me) Absolute Quantum Bits (AQIs?)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Eric<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Sent from my iPad<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">On May 18, 2025, at 11:13<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>PM, Prof. Dr. Thomas Görnitz <<a href="mailto:goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de" target="_blank">goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p>Dear John, Gordana, Pedro, and fis,<br>
I would like to add something from a physical perspective to my post from May 14 regarding the current discussion and the questions of gravity and holism.<br>
<br>
The subject area of the natural science that deals with the most complex structures, biology, has so far been limited to our Earth.<br>
The field of chemistry covers areas of the cosmos that are not so hot that molecules are immediately broken down again.<br>
The scope of those relationships that are so simple that they apply everywhere in the entire cosmos is that of physics. Its findings also provide the basis for understanding chemical and biological relationships.<br>
The accurate relationships discovered by physics are fundamentally effective always and everywhere.<br>
Therefore, from the perspective of physics, I would like to elaborate on two points:<br>
<br>
“In my opinion, these observations speak to life being <strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">'greater than the sum of its parts'</span></strong> or a
<strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">'holism'</span></strong>, unlike a machine, which is the literal sum of its parts.”<br>
This point made by John is important. All living beings are “more than the sum of the parts” into which they can be broken down or which can be explained as their constituent parts.<br>
In this sense, all life is holistic.<br>
However, this is only a necessary condition.<br>
As quantum theory shows, all systems described by quantum theory are holistic. Very few of these are living beings.<br>
Holism is therefore necessary for life, but not sufficient.<br>
<br>
This brings me to the second point I would like to discuss.<br>
Mechanics and general relativity are both theories of classical physics. In classical mechanics, there is no room for the concept of holism. The mathematics used there does not allow for it.<br>
The holism of quantum theory has a mathematical cause: interacting structures must be described in a state space that is constructed as the tensor product of the state spaces of the parts.<br>
This multiplicative structure, which leads from parts to a whole, ensures that in quantum theory a whole is always more than the sum of the parts from which it is constructed or into which it can be broken down.<br>
Incidentally, in many cases this can lead to quite different results from the outset. A quantum system can break down into completely different parts than those from which it was constructed.<br>
<br>
“In my opinion, the 'greater than' is the consequence of the force of gravity that caused the transition from non-life to life in the first place.”<br>
I cannot find any justification for this statement in the mathematics of gravity.<br>
But of course, gravity is also necessary for life. In the gravity-free vacuum of interstellar space, life cannot develop and is not possible without technical aids.<br>
Life does not develop on suns, but on planets and similarly cool celestial bodies, which must not be too cold, however. All planets have a gravitational field.<br>
Gravity is therefore also necessary for life, but it is not sufficient. Almost everywhere where there is gravity, there is no life.<br>
<br>
Once life has emerged, gravity is no longer absolutely necessary. Both humans and single-celled organisms survive for many months in the ISS, where there is no gravity.<br>
<br>
Of course, John is right when he states:<br>
“bearing in mind that <strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">the growth factors are not information</span></strong>.”<br>
Growth factors are molecules. A newspaper is not information either, but paper. However, certain properties of the newspaper enable us to understand that it can be interpreted as a carrier of information. The growth factors are also carriers of important properties.<br>
In this process, it is important that this information reaches its destination in living beings by means of photons.<br>
<br>
All life processes have a biochemical basis because, unlike all previous machines, information processing in life does not primarily take place through the transport of electrons, but through changes in molecules and ions.<br>
This means that biological information processing moves at least 10,000 times more mass than a technical information processing device.<br>
This is why biological information processing is inextricably linked to the material substrate of the living being in question.<br>
Unlike electronic information processing, biological information processing cannot be separated from its material basis. Biology knows no distinction between hardware and software.<br>
<br>
“Energy is not information, it is the capacity for maintaining 'self' in an ever-changing environment, due to an expanding Cosmos. The primary purpose of the organism is to detect meaningful change (for itself), and either adapt or become extinct.<br>
Quantum theory also provides additional clues in this regard.<br>
In biology, and in all chemical processes in general, there is still a clear separation between matter and energy. This is because all chemical processes are so low in energy that no matter can be created in this process.<br>
Nevertheless, it is extremely important for understanding the whole matter that we have known for over 100 years that matter can be converted into energy and energy can be converted into matter, but, as I said, not in chemistry and biology.<br>
<br>
If we want to understand the connections more precisely, we need to look at the fundamentals of quantum theory and the fundamentals of cosmology.<br>
Scientific explanation leads from the simple to the complex and complicated. The most complicated structures in physics are quantum field theories. They describe the creation and destruction of any number of quantum particles as a structure. They are therefore
much more complicated than quantum mechanics, which calculates with a fixed number of particles and a classical electromagnetic field.<br>
For mathematical reasons, the simplest possible quantum structures have a two-dimensional state space. They are therefore often referred to as quantum bits.<br>
Quantum bits can be used to create the quantum particles of energy and matter.<br>
<br>
Modern quantum theory makes it clear that not only can energy be converted into matter, and matter thus be understood as a special form of energy, but that, beyond this, even meaning-free and cosmically based quantum information is the basis for these two phenomena,
which are so clearly distinct in everyday life.<br>
Abstract, absolute, and thus still meaning-free quantum information is the physical basis for explaining matter and energy.<br>
<br>
In everyday life, on the other hand, information is always linked to meaning. “Meaning-free information” is a very difficult demand on abstraction.<br>
<br>
The fact that energy can be converted into matter is irrelevant in biology. However, the fact that this equivalence of matter and energy can be understood as the basis for energy to act on matter is also significant for biology.<br>
The fact that the quantum particles of energy and matter can be constructed from abstract and meaning-free quantum bits has not yet penetrated scientific understanding as much as it needs to. But only then can we understand that information has an action in
living things.<br>
<br>
In biology, the following has been true up to now: matter is not energy. It has also been true that energy is not information. Only when we understand that these two statements are only approximate and not fundamental statements can life be understood.<br>
<br>
Life is information processing aimed at strengthening, not diminishing, the continued existence of the unstable system known as “living beings.”<br>
Living beings are dynamic equilibriums which, unlike machines, depend on good information processing that must be essentially geared towards their self-preservation.<br>
<br>
Just as it is not the paper that is essential to a newspaper (or at least should be), but rather the information it contains, so too are “growth factors” molecules, but it is not their mass that is essential, but rather their properties.<br>
<br>
Life is characterized by its instability, which causes it to react not only to matter and energy, but in many cases to mere properties thereof.<br>
Through the reaction of living beings, these properties become meaningful information.<br>
<br>
In this context, I would like to point out that meaning is something that belongs to living beings. For inanimate objects, only energy exists as an active entity. Only for living beings can information also acquire meaning. Meaning cannot be objective. At best,
it is intersubjective. Consider, for example, the meaning of the four letters G, I, F, T in this order in German and English. (The meaning of “Gift” in German is poison.)<br>
Catalysts and, in biology, enzymes do not act on chemical processes in their vicinity via energy, but via their properties. Chemistry thus becomes an “information chemistry.”<br>
If enzymes acted through energy, they would have to be in a different state after such a process than before. However, the significant thing about catalysts and enzymes is that after such a chemical process, they are in the same state as before this action.
In such processes, the properties become the information that is meaningful for this process.<br>
<br>
Information that is to be stored for a longer period of time requires a material carrier. In living beings, this factual storage takes place with the structures of DNA.<br>
<br>
Of course, these properties require virtual and often real photons to become effective, as is the case when reading a newspaper. But the energy of the photons is not the essential thing, but rather the information they transmit. The information, like this text,
may or may not be meaningful to the recipient.<br>
<br>
I would like to refer you once again to an article that provides much more detailed information:<br>
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/authors.elsevier.com/sd/article/S0303-2647(25)00077-2__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VFwo5U3iaF-5sSf6FPmlsPYL4XzL9ierjznjeMql2Ku8vp5D6dOUqA7Zr5k1mrM0GEz7IoUEEKBctMCvbeFZVMHO38LKh-Hw$" target="_blank">https://authors.elsevier.com/sd/article/S0303-2647(25)00077-2</a><br>
All the best and kind regards,<br>
Thomas Görnitz<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear John, Gordana, Pedro and fis,<br>
ich möchte über meinen Beitrag vom 14. Mai hinaus zur aktuellen Diskussion und den Fragen Gravitation und Holismus noch etwas aus physikalischer Sicht ergänzen.<br>
<br>
Der Gegenstandsbereich derjenigen Naturwissenschaft, die sich mit den komplexesten Strukturen befasst, der Biologie, ist bisher nur unsere Erde.<br>
Der Anwendungsbereich der Chemie sind solche Bereiche im Kosmos, die nicht so heiß sind, dass entstehende Moleküle sofort wieder zerlegt werden.<br>
Der Geltungsbereich derjenigen Zusammenhänge, die so einfach sind, dass sie überall im gesamten Kosmos gelten, ist derjenige der Physik. Ihre Erkenntnisse liefern auch Grundlagen für das Verstehen chemischer und biologischer Zusammenhänge.<br>
<br>
Die von der Physik gefundenen zutreffenden Zusammenhänge sind grundsätzlich immer und überall wirksam.<br>
Daher möchte ich aus Sicht der Physik zu zwei Hinweisen etwas ausführen:<br>
<br>
»In my opinion, these observations speak to life being <strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">'greater than the sum of its parts'</span></strong> or a
<strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">'holism'</span></strong>, unlike a machine, which is the literal sum of its parts."<br>
Dieser Hinweis von John ist wichtig. Alle Lebewesen sind „mehr als die Summe der Teile“, in die man sie zerlegen kann oder für die man erklären kann, dass sie daraus aufgebaut sein würden.<br>
Alles Leben ist in diesem Sinne holistisch.<br>
Allerdings ist dies nur eine notwendige Bedingung.<br>
Wie die Quantentheorie zeigt, sind alle Systeme, die man mit Quantentheorie beschreibt, holistisch. Die wenigsten davon sind Lebewesen.<br>
Holismus ist also notwendig für Leben, aber nicht hinreichend.<br>
<br>
Damit zur zweiten Bemerkung, die ich diskutieren möchte.<br>
Mechanik und allgemeine Relativitätstheorie sind beides Theorien der klassischen Physik. In der klassischen Mechanik ist für die Vorstellung von Holismus kein Platz. Das gibt die dort verwendete Mathematik nicht her.<br>
Der Holismus der Quantentheorie hat die mathematische Ursache, dass wechselwirkende Strukturen in einem Zustandsraum beschrieben werden müssen, welcher als das Tensor-Produkt der Zustandsräume der Teile konstruiert wird.<br>
Diese multiplikative Struktur, die aus Teilen zu einem Ganzen führt, sorgt dafür, dass in der Quantentheorie ein Ganzes immer mehr ist als die Summe der Teile, aus denen es aufgebaut wurde oder in die es zerlegt werden kann.<br>
Das kann übrigens in vielen Fällen aus einem Anfang zu recht unterschiedlichen Ergebnissen führen. Ein Quantensystem kann in völlig andere Teile zerfallen als diejenigen, aus denen es aufgebaut wurde.<br>
<br>
» In my opinion, the 'greater than' is the consequence of the force of gravity that caused the transition from non-life to life in the first place «<br>
Für diese Aussage kann ich in der Mathematik der Gravitation keine Begründung finden.<br>
Aber natürlich ist Gravitation ebenfalls nothwendig für Leben. Im gravitationsfreien Vakuum des interstellaren Raumes kann sich Leben nicht entwickeln und ist dort ohne technische Hilfsmittel auch nicht möglich.<br>
Leben entwickelt sich nicht auf Sonnen, sondern auf Planeten und ähnlich kühlen Himmelskörpern, die aber nicht zu kalt sein dürfen. Alle Planeten besitzen ein Gravitationsfeld.<br>
Gravitation ist also ebenfalls notwendig fürs Leben, aber ebenfalls nicht hinreichend. Fast überall wo es Gravitation gibt, gibt es kein Leben.<br>
<br>
Wenn Leben entstanden ist, dann ist die Gravitation auch nicht mehr zwingend notwendig. Sowohl Menschen als auch Einzeller überleben viele Monate in der ISS, in der es keine Gravitation gibt.<br>
<br>
Natürlich hat John recht, wenn er feststellt:<br>
»bearing in mind that <strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">the growth factors are not information</span></strong>. «<br>
<br>
<strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">growth factors </span></strong>sind Moleküle. Auch eine Zeitung ist keine Information, sondern Papier. Aber wir begreifen durch bestimmte Eigenschaften der Zeitung, dass sie ihren Buchstaben als Träger von
Information interpretiert werden kann. Auch die <strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">growth factors</span></strong> sind Träger wichtige Eigenschaften.<br>
Dabei kommt es darauf an, dass diese Information bei Lebewesen mittels Photonen von der Quelle zum Ziel gelangt.<br>
<br>
Alle Lebensvorgänge haben eine biochemische Basis, weil im Leben, im Gegensatz zu allen bisherigen Maschinen, die Informationsverarbeitung nicht vor allem durch den Transport von Elektronen, sondern durch Veränderungen an Molekülen und Ionen vonstatten geht.<br>
D.h. die biologische Informationsverarbeitung bewegt mindestens das 10.000 fache an Masse als ein technisches Gerät der Informationsverarbeitung.<br>
Deswegen ist die biologische Informationsverarbeitung untrennbar mit dem betreffenden materiellen Substrat des Lebewesens verbunden.<br>
Daher kann biologische Informationsverarbeitung im Gegensatz zur elektronischen nicht von ihrer materiellen Basis getrennt werden. Biologie kennt keine Trennung zwischen Hard- und Software.<br>
<br>
»Energy is not information, it is the capacity for maintaining 'self' in an ever-changing environment, due to an expanding Cosmos. The primary purpose of the organism is to detect meaningful change (for itself), and either adapt or become extinct. «<br>
<br>
Auch dazu liefert die Quantentheorie zusätzliche Hinweise.<br>
In der Biologie und überhaupt in allen chemischen Vorgängen gibt es noch eine klare Trennung zwischen Materie und Energie. Das liegt daran, dass sämtliche chemischen Vorgänge so energiearm sind, dass dabei keine Materie erzeugt werden kann.<br>
Trotzdem ist es für das Verständnis der ganzen Angelegenheit äußerst wichtig, dass wir seit über 100 Jahren wissen, Materie kann in Energie und Energie kann in Materie verwandelt werden, aber, wie gesagt, nicht in der Chemie und der Biologie.<br>
Wenn wir die Zusammenhänge genauer verstehen wollen, ist ein Blick auf die Grundlagen der Quantentheorie und die Grundlagen der Kosmologie notwendig.<br>
Naturwissenschaftliches Erklären führt vom Einfachen zum Komplexen und Komplizierten. Die kompliziertesten Strukturen der Physik sind die Quantenfeldtheorien. Sie beschreiben als Struktur von beliebig vielen Quantenteilchen deren Erzeugen und Vernichten. Sie
sind also wesentlich komplizierter als die Quantenmechanik, die mit einer festen Teilchenzahl und einem klassischen elektromagnetischen Feld rechnet.<br>
<br>
Die aus mathematischen Gründen einfachstmöglichen Quantenstrukturen haben einen zweidimensionalen Zustandsraum. Sie werden daher oft als Quantenbit bezeichnet.<br>
Aus solchen Quantenbits lassen sich die Quantenteilchen der Energie und der Materie erzeugen.<br>
<br>
Mit der modernen Quantentheorie wird deutlich, dass nicht nur Energie in Materie verwandelt werden kann und somit Materie als eine spezielle Form von Energie verstanden werden kann, sondern dass darüber hinaus sogar eine noch bedeutungsfreie und kosmisch fundierte
Quanteninformation die Grundlage für diese beiden im Alltag so deutlich unterschiedenen Erscheinungen ist.<br>
Eine abstrakte, absolute und somit noch bedeutungsfreie Quanteninformation ist die physikalische Grundlage für eine Erklärung von Materie und Energie.<br>
<br>
Im Alltag wird im Gegensatz dazu Information immer mit Bedeutung verknüpft. „Bedeutungsfreie Information“ ist eine sehr schwierige Forderung an die Abstraktion.<br>
<br>
Dass Energie in Materie verwandelt werden kann, das spielt in der Biologie keine Rolle. Dass diese Äquivalenz von Materie und Energie aber als Grundlage dafür verstanden werden kann, dass Energie auf Materie einwirken kann, das ist auch für die Biologie bedeutsam.<br>
<br>
Dass die Quantenteilchen von Energie und von Materie aus abstrakten und bedeutungsfreien Quantenbits konstruiert werden können, das ist noch nicht in das naturwissenschaftliche Verständnis so eingedrungen, wie es notwendig wäre. Aber erst damit wird verstehbar,
dass Information im Lebendigen Wirkungen erzielt.<br>
<br>
In der Biologie galt bisher: Materie ist keine Energie. Ebenso galt dort auch: Energie ist keine Information. Erst wenn man versteht, dass diese beiden Aussagen nur genäherte und keine grundsätzlichen Aussagen sind, erst dann wird Leben verstehbar.<br>
Leben ist Informationsverarbeitung, die darauf gerichtet ist, den Fortbestand des instabilen Systems „Lebewesen“ zu bestärken und nicht zu vermindern.<br>
Lebewesen sind Fließgleichgewichte, die – im Gegensatz zu den Maschinen – auf eine gute Informationsverarbeitung angewiesen sind, die auf ihren Selbsterhalt wesentlich ausgerichtet sein muss.<br>
<br>
So wie an der Zeitung nicht das Papier, sondern die Information das Wesentliche ist (oder zumindest sein sollte) so sind natürlich auch „growth factors“ Moleküle, an denen aber nicht die Masse, sondern die Eigenschaften das Wesentliche sind.<br>
<br>
Leben ist dadurch ausgezeichnet, dass es so instabil ist, dass es nicht nur auf Materie und Energie reagiert, sondern in vielen Fällen auf bloße Eigenschaften davon.<br>
Durch die Reaktion des Lebewesens werden diese Eigenschaften zu bedeutungsvoller Information.<br>
<br>
In diesem Zusammenhang darf ich darauf verweisen, dass Bedeutung etwas ist, was zu Lebewesen gehört. Für Unbelebtes gibt es nur Energie als wirkende Entität. Erst für Lebendiges kann Information auch eine Bedeutung erhalten. Bedeutung kann nicht objektiv sein.
Sie ist im besten Fall intersubjektiv. Man denke beispielsweise an die Bedeutung der vier Buchstaben G, I, F, T in dieser Reihenfolge im Deutschen und im Englischen. (Die Bedeutung von "gift" im Englischen ist Geschenk)<br>
<br>
Katalysatoren und in der Biologie die Enzyme wirken nicht über Energie, sondern über ihre Eigenschaften auf chemische Prozesse in ihrer Nachbarschaft. Chemie wird damit zu einer "Informations-Chemie".<br>
Wenn Enzyme über Energie wirken würden, dann müssten sie nach einem solchen Prozess in einem anderen Zustand sein als zuvor. Das Bedeutsame an Katalysatoren und Enzymen ist aber, dass sie nach einem solchen chemischen Prozess im gleichen Zustand sind wie vor
diesem Einwirken. Bei solchen Prozessen werden die Eigenschaften zu der für diesen Prozess bedeutungsvollen Information.<br>
<br>
Informationen, die für längere Zeit faktisch gespeichert werden soll, bedarf eines materiellen Trägers. In Lebewesen erfolgt diese faktische Speicherung mit den Strukturen der DNA.<br>
<br>
Natürlich bedürfen diese Eigenschaften für das Wirksamwerden virtuelle und oft auch reale Photonen, sowie beim Lesen einer Zeitung. Aber die Energie der Photonen ist nicht das Wesentliche, sondern die von ihnen übermittelte Information. Die Information, so
wie auch dieser Text, kann beim Empfänger bedeutungsvoll werden – oder auch nicht.<br>
<br>
Ich darf noch einmal auf den Link zu einem Artikel verweisen, der wesentlich ausführlicher ist:<br>
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/authors.elsevier.com/sd/article/S0303-2647(25)00077-2__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VFwo5U3iaF-5sSf6FPmlsPYL4XzL9ierjznjeMql2Ku8vp5D6dOUqA7Zr5k1mrM0GEz7IoUEEKBctMCvbeFZVMHO38LKh-Hw$" target="_blank">https://authors.elsevier.com/sd/article/S0303-2647(25)00077-2</a><br>
<br>
Allen alles Gute und beste Grüße<br>
Thomas Görnitz<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Quoting JOHN TORDAY <<a href="mailto:jtorday@ucla.edu" target="_blank">jtorday@ucla.edu</a>>:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Dear Gordana, Mark, Michael, Bill, Joe, Tom, Pedro and fis, I will reply to your thoughtful email in
<b>[</b><i>brackets</i><b>]</b> as best I can, bearing in mind that many of my comments are the same as those I stated in my replies to Joe Brenner.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">"</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Thank you for sharing your thought-provoking remarks and the fascinating perspective
you've developed regarding gravity as a fundamental driver in the origin and evolution of life. Your work on PTHrP as a gravisensor, and the broader implications you draw from it, raise important questions about how we conceptualize life's emergence from a
physical and developmental standpoint.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">[I just wanted to interject as 'Proof of Principle' that the PTHrP Receptor duplicated (amplified) during the water-land
transition, explaining how/why the skeleton, lungs, kidney and hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis evolved in that time-frame, facilitating the vertebrate cellular-molecular physiologic adaptation to land. This was not Darwinian 'random mutation', it was internal
selection due to stress, dysregulating homeostasis in the organs of interest, causing the cells involved to produce radical oxygen species, known to cause context-specific mutations and duplications.....it is that mechanism that allows for evolution of the
tissues and organs in order to adapt. It is Maturana and Varela's self-referential self-organization, for which they did not provide a mechanism.]</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">I wanted to offer a collegial and constructive </span></u><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">view
from my </span></u><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">perspective that complements your argument by considering the foundational role of <i>information</i> in biological systems—especially in the context of <i>cognition, learning,
and adaptation</i> at the cellular level.</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><i><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">[I appreciate your effort to find consilience between information and energy. Not to be argumentative, just the
contrary, to hopefully provide a mechanism that is continuous from the inert to the living, information is secondary to energy, as I stated in my reply to Joe Brenner, beginning with the microgravity effect on cellular phenotypic evolution, which by definition
was depriving the cell of energy, not information. And beyond that, I have stated that the Fibonacci sequence for the Elements produced by Stellar Nucleosynthesis, or how/why stars are formed, the Elements as their by-products, is a story of the energy for
those mechanisms. But it must be said that the sequencing of the Elements in their exact order of their atomic masses is information that is the 'logic' of the Cosmos. But Life makes the Elements 'organic' through Symbiogenesis, mediating the 'serial homeostatic
balance of the cell' in adapting to its environment as evolution, in contradistinction to Darwinian 'random mutations'. ]</span></u></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">While I fully agree that gravity, as well as other forms of energy— electrical</span></u><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">, </span></u><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">chemical,
thermal and mechanical are crucial in shaping the physical environment that made life possible, I would suggest that these energy forms are<b> </b><i>enabling conditions</i> for a more fundamental transition: the emergence of systems capable of <i>processing,
storing, and responding to information</i>.</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><i><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">[I must take exception to the role of information as primary, because it is derivative of the energy flows, primarily
because I am of the opinion that not unlike classical v quantum mechanics, if you need to use different explanations for each, you're not using the correct explanation. The ontology and epistemology must be internally consistent to understand the meaning of
both/and each. The experiment done by Claassen and Spooner (</span></u></i></b><b><i><u><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#212121">Claassen DE, Spooner BS. Liposome formation in microgravity. Adv Space Res. 1996;17(6-7):151-60) showing that
in microgravity micelles, or protocells, are heterogeneous.....so like soap bubbles, it they are not uniform the biggest one will 'eat' all the smaller ones, eliminating that 'platform' for life.]</span></u></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Cells, even the simplest ones, are not passive reactors to external forces; they sense, interpret, and adapt to their
environment.</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">This requires:</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Internal representations of their state (e.g., energy levels, osmotic pressure</span></u><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">, etc.</span></u><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">),</span></u><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Interpretation of signals (via receptors and transduction pathways),</span></u><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Decision-making logic (e.g., feedback control, signal integration),</span></u><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">F</span></u><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">orms of memory and adaptive behavior.</span></u><o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><br>
<u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">These capacities reflect <i>informational architectures</i>—structured, rule-governed processes that allow organisms to maintain homeostasis, respond to novelty, and evolve complexity.</span><br>
</u><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">T</span></u><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">hese processes are <i>not reducible to energy flow</i></span></u><i><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">s</span></u></i><i><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> alone</span></u></i><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">,
even though they are energetically instantiated.</span></u><br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">To take your Newtonian analogy a step further: just as force requires mass to produce acceleration, energy requires an
informational </span></u><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">structure, </span></u><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">a network or system capable of interpreting and responding to that energy, for
it to lead to life-like behavior.<br>
Without that, physical processes remain inanimate.</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><i><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">[I am an advocate for Schrodinger's "What is Life", in which he stated that life is negative entropy within the
cell, entropy in the environment, acting as a dialectic state of energy as the ab origine form of the cell, the subsequent Symbiogenic mechanism (Sagan, 1967) sustaining and perpetuating that state epistemologically.]</span></u></i></b><br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Both Mike and Bill have written extensively on cellular information processing and cognition, </span></u><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">and
you in your book </span></u><i><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Consciousness-Based Evolution</span></u></i><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></u><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">are
emphasizing the role of communication that is information exchange.</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><i><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">[With all due respect, all the articles and books I have published regarding cellular-molecular evolution
emphasize the role of cell-cell communication as energy exchanges, not information. And Mike and Bill do not provide a mechanism for their work that would make it amenable to testing scientifically whereas my work is totally testable, as I and others have
shown]</span></u></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">I find great resonance in your broader point that life must be understood as a <i>holistic, dynamical phenomenon</i>,
not merely a sum of parts. My aim is not to oppose that view, but to emphasize that <i>information</i></span></u><i><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">, </span></u></i><i><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">context-sensitive,
functional information</span></u></i><i><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">, is</span></u></i><i><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> one of those essential parts,</span></u></i><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> and
arguably what makes life different from non-life."</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">[Thank you for recognizing the value in recognizing life as holism. I recently published an article explaining 'how ane
why' Symbiogenesis is evidence for our origin in a non-dual monistic holism (</span></u><u><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#212121">Torday JS. Symbiogenesis redicts the monism of the cosmos. Prog Biophys Mol Biol. 2024 Sep;191:58-62).
I am of the opinion that we should be striving to understand the holism of our 'being'.]</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#212121">Again, I share these thoughts in the spirit of consilience....</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#212121">Cordially, John</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>John S. Torday</u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Professor of Pediatrics</u>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Obstetrics and Gynecology</u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Evolutionary Medicine</u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>UCLA</u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><u>Fellow, The European Academy of Science and Arts</u></i><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>On Sun, May 18, 2025 at 9:26</u><u><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>AM Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic <<a href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se" target="_blank">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se</a>>
wrote:</u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Dear John,
</span></u><u><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">and All,</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Thank you for sharing your thought-provoking remarks and the fascinating perspective you've developed regarding gravity
as a fundamental driver in the origin and evolution of life. Your work on PTHrP as a gravisensor, and the broader implications you draw from it, raise important questions about how we conceptualize life's emergence from a physical and developmental standpoint.</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">I wanted to offer a collegial and constructive
</span></u><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">view from my
</span></u><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">perspective that complements your argument by considering the foundational role of
<i>information</i> in biological systems—especially in the context of <i>cognition, learning, and adaptation</i> at the cellular level.</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">While I fully agree that gravity, as well as other forms of energy— electrical</span></u><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">,
</span></u><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">chemical, thermal and mechanical are crucial in shaping the physical environment that made life possible, I would suggest that these energy forms are<b>
</b><i>enabling conditions</i> for a more fundamental transition: the emergence of systems capable of
<i>processing, storing, and responding to information</i>.</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Cells, even the simplest ones, are not passive reactors to external forces; they sense, interpret, and adapt to their
environment. </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">This requires:</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">
<u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Internal representations of their state (e.g., energy levels, osmotic pressure</span></u><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">, etc.</span></u><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">),</span></u><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">
<u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Interpretation of signals (via receptors and transduction pathways),</span></u><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">
<u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Decision-making logic (e.g., feedback control, signal integration),</span></u><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">
<u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">F</span></u><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">orms of memory and adaptive behavior.</span></u><o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><br>
<u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">These capacities reflect
<i>informational architectures</i>—structured, rule-governed processes that allow organisms to maintain homeostasis, respond to novelty, and evolve complexity.
</span><br>
</u><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">T</span></u><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">hese processes are
<i>not reducible to energy flow</i></span></u><i><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">s</span></u></i><i><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> alone</span></u></i><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">,
even though they are energetically instantiated.</span></u><br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">To take your Newtonian analogy a step further: just as force requires mass to produce acceleration, energy requires an
informational </span></u><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">structure,
</span></u><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">a network or system capable of interpreting and responding to that energy, for it to lead to life-like behavior.<br>
Without that, physical processes remain inanimate.</span></u><br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Both Mike and Bill have written extensively on cellular information processing and cognition,
</span></u><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">and you in your book
</span></u><i><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Consciousness-Based Evolution</span></u></i><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">
</span></u><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">are emphasizing the role of communication that is information exchange.</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">I find great resonance in your broader point that life must be understood as a
<i>holistic, dynamical phenomenon</i>, not merely a sum of parts. My aim is not to oppose that view, but to emphasize that
<i>information</i></span></u><i><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">,
</span></u></i><i><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">context-sensitive, functional information</span></u></i><i><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">, is</span></u></i><i><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">
one of those essential parts,</span></u></i><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> and arguably what makes life different from non-life.</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Looking forward to continuing the conversation and exchanging ideas on this deep and fascinating topic.</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Best</span></u><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> regards,</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Gordana</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><u><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></u></b><u><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Fis <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>> on behalf of "<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>"
<<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Sunday, 18 May 2025 at 14:18<br>
<b>To: </b>JOHN TORDAY <<a href="mailto:jtorday@ucla.edu" target="_blank">jtorday@ucla.edu</a>>, Mark Johnson <<a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>>, "Levin, Michael" <<a href="mailto:michael.levin@tufts.edu" target="_blank">michael.levin@tufts.edu</a>>,
Bill <<a href="mailto:wbmiller1@cox.net" target="_blank">wbmiller1@cox.net</a>>, "Pedro C. Marijuán" <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>>, fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>,
"<a href="mailto:goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de" target="_blank">goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de</a>" <<a href="mailto:goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de" target="_blank">goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Fis] Bill Miller's contribution: the "It" of a machine, truth and trust</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u> </u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span lang="SV"> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:13.0pt">Dear John,</span>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span lang="SV"> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:13.0pt">I wish to apologize for not having recognized previously my failure to see and
<span style="color:red">express the fundamental role played by gravity in science and philosophy as you have now expressed it</span>. Please let me expand a little (like the universe, at this point) by calling attention to the fact that the force of gravity,
or gravitational field, is inhomogeneous. We also exist by capitalizing (storing) the potential energy available from the differences in the strength of the field between two space-time points. We drink by catching part of a waterfall, converting gravitational
energy from actual to potential in our cupped hands.</span> </u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span lang="SV"> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:13.0pt">However, to explain the further development of phenomena to the point at which one can start to talk about information requiires an additional
fundamental principle, the <span style="color:red">Lupasco principle of Dynamic Opposition</span>: all systems move from states constituted by more potential and less actual energy -
<span style="color:red">gravitational, electromagnetic, electrostatic </span>- to the reverse, reciprocally and sinusoidally, without ever returning to exactly the point of origin. (<span style="color:red">Machines are also subject to this principle, but at
short time scales it can be ignored to all intents and purposes - just a little wear at a microscopic level</span>).</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span lang="SV"> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:13.0pt">I thus am forced to a position that
<span style="color:#0432FF">information is not more (but also not less) than the epistemic descriptions of those states</span>. However our knowledge of these states as information is also not static. It is an ontic process of knowing which is itself subject
to movement between actual and potential, becoming causally effective when transduced to muscle cells, <em><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">etc</span></em>. Other cognitive examples of the operation of this principle are
<span style="color:red">our changing <em><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">views</span></em> of part and whole</span>, or figure and ground.</span>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span lang="SV"> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:13.0pt">Please let me know if you see any merit in this proposed synthesis of our ideas.</span>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span lang="SV"> </span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:13.0pt">Thank you and best wishes,</span>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:13.0pt">Joe</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Le 18.05.2025 11:48 CEST, JOHN TORDAY <<a href="mailto:jtorday@ucla.edu" target="_blank">jtorday@ucla.edu</a>> a écrit :
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
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</u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:18.0pt">To Mark, Mike, Bill, Joe, Tom, fis, </span>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:18.0pt">I wanted to remark on the heels of the comments by Mark, Joe, Tom regarding machines vs organisms, that simply put, organisms are 'holisms' that
are greater than the sums of their parts, machines are just the sums of their parts, without something 'greater than' themselves. In my opinion, the 'greater than' is the consequence of the force of gravity that caused the transition from non-life to life
in the first place (</span></u><u><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:red">Torday JS. Parathyroid hormone-related protein is a gravisensor in lung and bone cell biology. Adv Space Res. 2003;32(8):1569-76</span></u><u><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#212121">).
I would like to point out that that experiment and that of others showed that it is the energy of gravity that is necessary for evolution, not information, with all due respect. There is no singular piece of information that one could deprive the cell by doing
a so-called 'knockout' experiment that would have the same fundamental effect. And as for ontology and epistemology, I am of the opinion that to identify the fundamental nature of life, both of them must be accounted for by the same mechanism, as in the case
of the effect of gravity, causing the protocell to react as an 'equal and opposite reaction' (Newton's Third Law of Motion). Subsequently, life is constituted by serial homeostatic control of energy by the organism, facilitated by Symbiogenesis, Lynn Sagan's
explanation that, for example, bacteria were assimilated by archaea to form eukaryotes in order to maintain homeostatic balance in an ever-changing environment due to an expanding Cosmos.</span></u><u><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#212121"> </span>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#212121"> </span>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#212121">Best, John</span>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>John S. Torday
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Professor of Pediatrics
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Obstetrics and Gynecology
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Evolutionary Medicine
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>UCLA
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><em><u><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Fellow, The European Academy of Science and Arts</span></u></em><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u> </u><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>On Sat, May 17, 2025 at 5:25</u><u><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>PM Mark Johnson <<a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>>
wrote: </u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Dear Bill, Mike and John
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>First of all thank you to Bill and Mike for continuing the very stimulating discussion that began in the video call a few weeks ago.
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>There are, as is often the case on FIS, a number of ontological assertions flying around which make navigating this space rather difficult. Mike does his best to address this
head-on in his identification of two fundamental problems: "First, the belief that we can objectively and uniquely nail down what something is. And second, that our formal models of life, computers or materials tell the entire story of their capabilities and
limitations." </u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Channelling Warren McCulloch, and perhaps in response to those who ask "what is a machine?", I would like to ask "What is a machine that we might know it, and what are we that
we might know a machine?" </u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>What follows from the formulation such a question (whether you ask about number, distinction, etc), is that any determination of "what a machine is" - the "it" of a machine -
is both contingent and necessary. It is contingent because it must depend on the determination by the observer (Maturana). It is necessary because without any determination of what a machine is, we would have no machines, no science, no institutions, no coordination
- the world would not be like the world we experience. </u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Our arguments about ontology are an expression of the contingency of definition. The fact that we keep on going at it is indicative of the necessity of definition. We perhaps
should be mindful that alongside contingency, is paraconsistency in definition: it is not x OR y, information OR energy. It is probably x AND y.
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>This gives rise to something that doesn't often come up on this list, which I have been reflecting on, which is dialectic. If you take necessity and contingency together, you
get a dialectical process. This is political. I know (I'm sure he won't mind me saying this) that behind John's passionate emphasis on energy is a personal story about the pathology of humankind, and a fear that misapprehending the underlying mechanism of
evolutionary development will lead to the kind of terrible consequences we saw in the middle of the last century. Personally, I very swayed by his arguments - they run very deep.
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Indeed, behind much of the anxiety of AI are political feelings, which are not properly inspected. As scientists, we are often rather too buttoned-up, pretending this is all
completely rational. Well, we know it isn't. There are feasible dystopias and infeasible dystopias, and equally infeasible utopias.
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>The politics comes from the dialectics which comes from the contingency and necessity of definition of what a machine is. This is not to say that there cannot be coordinated
stability through science. But it fundamentally requires trust and humility, and acceptance of contingency and paraconsistency. As Von Foerster pointed out many years ago, the word "truth" has the same root as the word "trust" (see <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/youtu.be/Mc6YFUoPWSI?feature=shared__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wsl84qM48TWmEsBlAC9YhD2IHxjMVlFr6erxin6en2yFgbYBGQlM8a5NGAk5ong88K_SAvMIBduo89SVofc%24" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/Mc6YFUoPWSI?feature=shared</a>)
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Trust appears to be some kind of physiological process. Do machines help us to trust each other? Well, what do you think? You're in a machine right now. Do you trust me? If this
wasn't email, what might we do to engender trust between us better? Could a machine help? How?
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Best wishes,
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Mark
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u> </u><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>On Wed, 14 May 2025 at 22:02, JOHN TORDAY <<a href="mailto:jtorday@ucla.edu" target="_blank">jtorday@ucla.edu</a>> wrote:
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:18.0pt">Dear Pedro, Bill and fis,with all due respect, I have attached my replies to Bill's <strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Information
in a cellular framework – abstract for discussion</span></strong></span> </u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><strong><u><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">William B. Miller, Jr.</span></u></strong><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u> </u><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>John S. Torday
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Professor of Pediatrics
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Obstetrics and Gynecology
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Evolutionary Medicine
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>UCLA
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><em><u><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Fellow, The European Academy of Science and Arts</span></u></em><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u> </u><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>
From: <strong><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">JOHN TORDAY</span></strong> <<a href="mailto:jtorday@ucla.edu" target="_blank">jtorday@ucla.edu</a>><br>
Date: Wed, May 14, 2025 at 4:56</u><u><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Bill Miller's contribution<br>
To: Pedro C. Marijuán <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u> </u><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Dear Pedro and Bill and fis, I have attached my responses to Bill's "Information in a Cellular Framework".....
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>John S. Torday
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Professor of Pediatrics
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Obstetrics and Gynecology
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Evolutionary Medicine
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>UCLA
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><em><u><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Fellow, The European Academy of Science and Arts</span></u></em><u>
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u> </u><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 3:45</u><u><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>PM Pedro C. Marijuán <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>>
wrote: </u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Given the archive difficulties with attached files, systematically scrubbed by the server, I am posting Bill's text as a regular message (today I finally could do that!).<br>
It is an angle pretty different from the mechanism/non mechanism one... Regards --Pedro<br>
------------------------------------------------- </u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><strong><u><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Information in a cellular framework – abstract for discussion</span></u></strong><u><br>
</u><strong><u><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">William B. Miller, Jr.</span></u></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><u>A long-standing presumption among many physicists and mathematicians is<br>
that biology is a descriptive endeavor and any deep understanding of the<br>
living frame must issue from their more rigorous disciplines. Nonetheless,<br>
neither physics nor mathematics has explained the non-equilibrium living<br>
state in which intelligent self-referential cells deploy problem-solving<br>
competencies to sustain themselves across living scales. Consequently, some<br>
scientists argue that the reverse may be correct: biology might productively<br>
inform physics and mathematics, offering insights into how natural laws<br>
might extend beyond known physical and mathematical principles.<br>
In the same spirit, examining the specific attributes of biological<br>
information processing and living information management as specifically<br>
exemplified by cells might provide a productive further thrust to the<br>
fundamental action-logic of those theoretical information systems formulated<br>
by visionary information theorists.</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><u>To stimulate that initiative, it is proposed that information theorists might<br>
direct their attention to the specific informational characteristics of intelligent,<br>
measuring cells, which represent the basal strata of our living planetary<br>
system.</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><u>Several specific attributes of biological information have been<br>
empirically verified at the cellular level, thereby defining the informational<br>
conditions of our living system:</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><u>--All cells are cognitive, problem-solving agents.</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><u>--Their living context is the ambiguity of information.</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><u>--The uncertain validity of environmental stimuli governs the cellular<br>
reception, analysis, and deployment of all cellular resources.</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><u>--Imperfect information requires cells to internally measure their<br>
received information.</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><u>--Accordingly, all cellular information is a product of infoautopoiesis,<br>
entailing that all the information that any cell has about its external<br>
environment is exclusive, self-referential, and self-produced.</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><u>--Cellular infoautopiesis drives an obligatory and little appreciated<br>
derivative: each cell, and then we as cellular beings, create our<br>
exclusive self-referential representations of reality and act upon that<br>
self-generated purview.</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><u>--Obliged informational uncertainties stimulate the collective cellular<br>
analysis of self-generated cellular information, driving ubiquitous<br>
planetary multicellularity as a cellular expression of the familiar<br>
'wisdom of crowds'.</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><u>--Cellular information processing directs toward narrowing distinctions<br>
on the adjacents to diminish their obligatory uncertainty gap, yielding<br>
the effective minimization of surprisal in conformity with the Free<br>
Energy Principle.</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><u>--Every cell does work to sustain its self-directed state of homeorhetic<br>
preferential flux.</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><u>--Narrowing the distinctions on the adjacents as the effective<br>
minimization of surprisal enables cellular predictions and<br>
anticipations.</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><u>--Self-referential cellular states of homeorhetic preference drive<br>
multicellular eukaryotic macroorganic behaviors and emotions.</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><strong><u><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">SOME BASIC QUESTIONS (for the discussion)</span></u></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><u>Information in the living frame has been commonly defined according to<br>
Bateson’s familiar definition as a 'difference that makes a difference over<br>
time.' How might that definition explain internal self reference that governs<br>
our lives, enabling living information management? Might other definitions<br>
serve better?</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><u>How can previously formulated information theories illuminate the cellular<br>
living process within its obligatory context of informational ambiguity?<br>
How do current information theories explain the presence of inference,<br>
prediction, and anticipation.</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><u>Why do these informational cues, which must first manifest at the level of<br>
cells as exclusive states of self-referential homeorhetic preference, exert in<br>
multicellularity as nuanced multicellular behaviors and emotions?<br>
Recent research confirms the remarkable competencies of diverse<br>
intelligences across living scales. How might applying information systems<br>
theory contribute to our debate about any categorical distinctions between the<br>
living frame and the abiotic realm? If a fluid continuum is asserted, how<br>
might that be rationalized?</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><u>Is our understanding of biological systems improved by asserting an<br>
immaterial Platonic informational platform permitting cells to interrogate a<br>
constrained portion of universal informational space-time (? phase space<br>
partition) as part of a universal informational fabric?</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><u>Given the extraordinary competencies of current AI systems and projected<br>
future abilities, how might information theory inform constructive responses<br>
to inevitable social, economic, and cultural pressures?</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>What should govern our ethical responses to the still-developing organic constructs<br>
which will include synthetic combinations of digital competencies and living cells?<br>
If 'consciousness' is determined to be a litmus of our ethical stance toward<br>
other living entities, what practical informational threshold exists, if any? </u>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><u>------------------------------------------------------------------</u><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>_______________________________________________<br>
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----------<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:
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https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>
---------- </u><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>
----------<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:
<a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank">
https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>--
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Dr. Mark William Johnson
</u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="color:#222222">Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health
</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="color:#222222">University of Manchester
</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="color:#222222">Department of Science Education
</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="color:#222222">University of Copenhagen
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="color:#222222">Department of Eye and Vision Science (honorary)
</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="color:#222222">University of Liverpool
</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>Phone: 07786 064505<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a><br>
Blog: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wsl84qM48TWmEsBlAC9YhD2IHxjMVlFr6erxin6en2yFgbYBGQlM8a5NGAk5ong88K_SAvMIBduo1JSG9f0%24" target="_blank">
http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com</a> </u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u>_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
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----------<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:
<a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank">
https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Prof. Dr. Thomas Görnitz<br>
Fellow of the INTERNATIONAL ACADEMY OF INFORMATION STUDIES <br>
<br>
Privat (für Postsendungen):<br>
Karl-Mangold-Str. 13<br>
D-81245 München<br>
Tel: 0049-89-887746<br>
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/goernitzunderstandingquantumtheory.com/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VFwo5U3iaF-5sSf6FPmlsPYL4XzL9ierjznjeMql2Ku8vp5D6dOUqA7Zr5k1mrM0GEz7IoUEEKBctMCvbeFZVMHO3yh3sbjk$" target="_blank">https://goernitzunderstandingquantumtheory.com/</a><br>
<br>
Fachbereich Physik<br>
J. W. Goethe-Universität Frankfurt/Main<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
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----------<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:
<a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank">
https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>
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