<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </head>
  <body>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear List,</div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Quite often, the most productive
      explanations in many disciplines have to run a difficult way in
      between the empty over-generalization and the accumulation of
      technical detail. Both aspects need each other, but rarely are
      well complemented. For instance, talking about cellular
      selfproduction, or autopoiesis, or the like, we forget having a
      glance on the concrete way it is done. Myriads of specific
      "molecular recognition events" are taking place, the most
      important ones around the wondrous "machine" (?) in charge of
      protein synthesis, of producing the own components--the ribosome.
      When protein synthesis takes place according of the information
      gathered from the environment (rather than haphazardly--presumably
      in prebiotic stages) and all the signaling apparatuses are in
      place, we have a truly informational way of life. Etc, etc. the
      evolutionary process flies.<br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">So, selfproduction based on constructed
      polymers, on information gathered from the environment, on an
      energy flow detected and introjected, on everything well arranged
      around the life cycle...  that's a condensed draft of cellular
      life. It is important to keep this in mind while navigating in
      between Scylla and Charybdis, as could be symbolized in the next
      IAIS dialogue, between a creative generalizer and a gifted
      ribosome expert. <br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Insightful sparks will be produced.</div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">All the best,</div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">--Pedro<br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"> <br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">  El 18/05/2025 a las 17:10, Jason Hu
      escribió:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+SRckuDo+sx7zcRoQDAiBQKep6Q8fcOaDOOb603S5BReptvFQ@mail.gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Dear Joe,</div>
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Geniuses
          consider very simple questions, such as Einstein's "What is
          time" or McCulloch's "What is a number." I'm not sure if FIS
          members are geniuses but we can monkey-see-monkey-do. So, for
          the question "what is a machine", let's consider its easier
          form "Is a clock a machine?" or "Is a clock larger than the
          sum of its parts? Yes or no?</div>
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">What would be
          a typical FIS member's answer? I'm curious.</div>
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">My own answer
          is "Yes AND No." Without any human involved, a clock equals
          the sum of its parts minus the original clock-maker's efforts
          to build it in that particular structure. But "without any
          human involved" is a false condition, because at least two
          human roles need to be involved to define the concept
          "clock." The first one is the guy who winds the spring in the
          clock to provide "energy" for it to tick-tock. The second role
          is the guy who reads the clock face to tell time; therefore,
          the clock is realized to be a clock. These two roles, plus the
          original designer/builder, enable the clock to be a clock.
          Without any of them, the clock is not larger than the sum of
          its parts. With human (creator/energizer/observer/user), it IS
          larger than the sum of its parts! That "largeness" is simply
          "clockness." <br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">So if you
          replace the word "clock" with "machine, " or with "LLM," or
          with "AI"... you get "cybernetic perspective, second-order."</div>
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Best - Jason</div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, May 18, 2025 at
          12:59 AM <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch"
            moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>>
          wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
          <div>
            <div>
              <div> Dear FIS'ers, </div>
              <div>   </div>
              <div> <span lang="EN-US">My recent emphasis on ontology
                  should not be taken to mean that I am eliminativist
                  with respect to epistemology. I am simply concerned
                  with restoring the proper balance between them. Mark’s
                  note overall is thus very <em>à propos. </em>I just
                  would point out that his use of paraconsistency (PC)
                  is not complete, since PC, while allowing real
                  contradictions, remains a logic of propositions. Also,
                  while I welcome his reference to “a AND b”, he omitted
                  pointing out, as I have tried to, that this is the <em>4<sup
                      style="line-height:0">th</sup> </em>Lemma in the
                  lemmic logic of Nagarjuna and his modern interpreters.
                  For a more complete story, one should refer to the 3<sup
                    style="line-height:0">rd</sup> Lemma, the NEITHER a
                  NOR b. </span> </div>
              <div>   </div>
              <div> Having said that, two recent postings call, nay, cry
                out for an epistemic critique - those of Jason Hu and
                Paul Suni.  I was surprised to learn that the last 200
                years of thought have produced concepts of vitalism and
                mechanism that are not fraught with errors and omissions
                and are desperately in need of new approaches.
                Systemics, cybernetics and informatics still reflect
                predominantly Western concepts and their standard
                bivalent logics. Uncertainty is safely quarantined in
                the quantum domain. </div>
              <div>   </div>
              <div>  I am, also, perfectly aware that the FIS Group is
                not a venue for debate on political issues. However, to
                ignore completely the recent socio-political regressions
                would in my opinion trivialize our discussion. Note that
                I did not use the common fig leaf of "risk"
                trivializing.  </div>
              <div>   </div>
              <div>  I used the word Trump, as I hoped and still hope
                that most of you will understand, as shorthand for the
                almost unbearable attacks being made on the democratic
                system in the United States based on perversions, to
                begin with, of ordinary capitalism. We then are
                confronted by the attempts at thought control by a
                so-called "extreme right-wing" using totalitarian
                techniques, augmented by AI. "Trump" means a society
                whose power-structure is white, male and, again, Western
                despite the inevitable "fellow-travelers" in all
                categories.   </div>
              <div>   </div>
              <div>  Apart from my role in it, I think the discussion, a
                couple of years ago, of disinformation was a good one.
                In the interim, it has become so prevalent as to be
                unremarkable. Note also the cases of pseudo-information
                as in the recent discussion of Trump’s rule as an
                “hypnocracy”. </div>
              <div>   </div>
              <div>  I am generally sympathetic to Thomas' analysis: "In
                humans, this change means that there are no mental
                processes without a more or less clearly recognizable
                emotional involvement. The inextricable link between
                information processing—and, in more highly developed
                organisms, the psyche—and the body is what distinguishes
                living beings." However, his sentence: "In living
                beings, the main task of information processing is to
                optimize options for action.", while correct, falls back
                into a kind of moral neutrality when applied to humans.
              </div>
              <div>   </div>
              <div> I thus conclude that a discussion of "minds" and
                machines should take into account the existence, as in
                the work of the biologist E. O. Wilson, of two kinds of
                minds, with tendencies to selfishness and altruism
                respectively. Are information processes the same in
                both? Perhaps there are some differences in the way
                information and context (background) are processed by
                "Trump" and by us that deserve attention?  </div>
              <div>   </div>
              <div>          Although it conflicts somewhat with what I
                have written, I think that John Torday's interpretation
                in terms of energy is valid and very worthwhile. Further
                analysis might show that an interpretation of
                information_as_energy and the reverse are both valid.  </div>
              <div>   </div>
              <div> Thank you, </div>
              <div>   </div>
              <div> Joseph </div>
              <div>   </div>
            </div>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <div> Le 17.05.2025 23:25 CEST, Mark Johnson <<a
                  href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank"
                  moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>>
                a écrit : </div>
              <div>   </div>
              <div>   </div>
              <div dir="ltr">
                <div dir="ltr">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div dir="ltr"> Dear Bill, Mike and John
                      <div>   </div>
                      <div> First of all thank you to Bill and Mike for
                        continuing the very stimulating discussion that
                        began in the video call a few weeks ago.  </div>
                      <div>   </div>
                      <div> There are, as is often the case on FIS, a
                        number of ontological assertions flying around
                        which make navigating this space rather
                        difficult. Mike does his best to address this
                        head-on in his identification of two fundamental
                        problems: "First, the belief that we can
                        objectively and uniquely nail down what
                        something is. And second, that our formal models
                        of life, computers or materials tell the entire
                        story of their capabilities and limitations." </div>
                      <div>   </div>
                      <div> Channelling Warren McCulloch, and perhaps in
                        response to those who ask "what is a machine?",
                        I would like to ask "What is a machine that we
                        might know it, and what are we that we might
                        know a machine?" </div>
                      <div>   </div>
                      <div> What follows from the formulation such a
                        question (whether you ask about number,
                        distinction, etc), is that any determination of
                        "what a machine is" - the "it" of a machine - is
                        both contingent and necessary. It is contingent
                        because it must depend on the determination by
                        the observer (Maturana). It is necessary because
                        without any determination of what a machine is,
                        we would have no machines, no science, no
                        institutions, no coordination - the world would
                        not be like the world we experience.  </div>
                      <div>   </div>
                      <div> Our arguments about ontology are an
                        expression of the contingency of definition. The
                        fact that we keep on going at it is indicative
                        of the necessity of definition. We perhaps
                        should be mindful that alongside contingency, is
                        paraconsistency in definition: it is not x OR y,
                        information OR energy. It is probably x AND y. 
                      </div>
                      <div>   </div>
                      <div> This gives rise to something that doesn't
                        often come up on this list, which I have been
                        reflecting on, which is dialectic. If you take
                        necessity and contingency together, you get a
                        dialectical process. This is political. I know
                        (I'm sure he won't mind me saying this) that
                        behind John's passionate emphasis on energy is a
                        personal story about the pathology of humankind,
                        and a fear that misapprehending the underlying
                        mechanism of evolutionary development will lead
                        to the kind of terrible consequences we saw in
                        the middle of the last century. Personally, I
                        very swayed by his arguments - they run very
                        deep.  </div>
                      <div>   </div>
                      <div> Indeed, behind much of the anxiety of AI are
                        political feelings, which are not properly
                        inspected. As scientists, we are often rather
                        too buttoned-up, pretending this is all
                        completely rational. Well, we know it isn't.
                        There are feasible dystopias and infeasible
                        dystopias, and equally infeasible utopias.  </div>
                      <div>   </div>
                      <div> The politics comes from the dialectics which
                        comes from the contingency and necessity of
                        definition of what a machine is. This is not to
                        say that there cannot be coordinated stability
                        through science. But it fundamentally requires
                        trust and humility, and acceptance of
                        contingency and paraconsistency. As Von Foerster
                        pointed out many years ago, the word "truth" has
                        the same root as the word "trust" (see <a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/Mc6YFUoPWSI?feature=shared__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SOPq9poc-3vl-7SlVOj3yLI-dqYIjO9xvO16b4Q48lrtaRtB6K2fa2Uhx7dQtpM-i1tLaT5hg8TRQv5nhrKJK3Q$"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://youtu.be/Mc6YFUoPWSI?feature=shared</a>)
                      </div>
                      <div>   </div>
                      <div> Trust appears to be some kind of
                        physiological process. Do machines help us to
                        trust each other? Well, what do you think?
                        You're in a machine right now. Do you trust me?
                        If this wasn't email, what might we do to
                        engender trust between us better? Could a
                        machine help? How? </div>
                      <div>   </div>
                      <div> Best wishes, </div>
                      <div>   </div>
                      <div> Mark </div>
                      <div>   </div>
                      <div>   </div>
                    </div>
                    <br>
                    <div class="gmail_quote">
                      <div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr"> On Wed, 14 May
                        2025 at 22:02, JOHN TORDAY <<a
                          href="mailto:jtorday@ucla.edu" target="_blank"
                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                          class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jtorday@ucla.edu</a>>
                        wrote: </div>
                      <blockquote>
                        <div dir="ltr">
                          <div> <span style="font-size:large">Dear
                              Pedro, Bill and fis,with all due respect, 
                              I have attached my replies to Bill's </span><strong><span
                                style="font-size:large">Information in a
                                cellular framework – abstract for
                                discussion</span></strong> </div>
                          <strong><span style="font-size:large">William
                              B. Miller, Jr.</span></strong>
                          <div> <span style="font-size:large"><strong><br>
                              </strong></span>
                            <div>
                              <div class="gmail_signature" dir="ltr">
                                <div dir="ltr">
                                  <div>
                                    <div> John S. Torday </div>
                                    <div dir="ltr"> Professor of
                                      Pediatrics
                                      <div> Obstetrics and Gynecology </div>
                                      <div> Evolutionary Medicine </div>
                                      <div> UCLA </div>
                                      <div>   </div>
                                      <div> <em>Fellow, The European
                                          Academy of Science and Arts</em>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <br>
                            <br>
                            <div class="gmail_quote">
                              <div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">
                                ---------- Forwarded message --------- <br>
                                From: <strong class="gmail_sendername"
                                  dir="auto">JOHN TORDAY</strong> <span
                                  dir="auto"><<a
                                    href="mailto:jtorday@ucla.edu"
                                    rel="noopener" target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jtorday@ucla.edu</a>></span>
                                <br>
                                Date: Wed, May 14, 2025 at 4:56 PM <br>
                                Subject: Re: [Fis] Bill Miller's
                                contribution <br>
                                To: Pedro C. Marijuán <<a
href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" rel="noopener" target="_blank"
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  class="moz-txt-link-freetext">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>>
                              </div>
                              <br>
                              <br>
                              <div dir="ltr">
                                <div> Dear Pedro and Bill and fis, I
                                  have attached my responses to Bill's
                                  "Information in a Cellular
                                  Framework".....  </div>
                                <div>   </div>
                                <div>
                                  <div class="gmail_signature" dir="ltr">
                                    <div dir="ltr">
                                      <div>
                                        <div> John S. Torday </div>
                                        <div dir="ltr"> Professor of
                                          Pediatrics
                                          <div> Obstetrics and
                                            Gynecology </div>
                                          <div> Evolutionary Medicine </div>
                                          <div> UCLA </div>
                                          <div>   </div>
                                          <div> <em>Fellow, The
                                              European Academy of
                                              Science and Arts</em> </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                              <br>
                              <div class="gmail_quote">
                                <div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr"> On
                                  Wed, May 14, 2025 at 3:45 PM Pedro C.
                                  Marijuán <<a
href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" rel="noopener" target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    class="moz-txt-link-freetext">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>>
                                  wrote: </div>
                                <blockquote>
                                  <div> Given the archive difficulties
                                    with attached files, systematically
                                    scrubbed by the server, I am posting
                                    Bill's text as a regular message
                                    (today I finally could do that!). <br>
                                    It is an angle pretty different from
                                    the mechanism/non mechanism
                                    one...      Regards --Pedro <br>
-------------------------------------------------
                                    <p><strong><span
                                          style="font-size:large">Information
                                          in a cellular framework –
                                          abstract for discussion<br>
                                          William B. Miller, Jr.</span></strong></p>
                                    <p>A long-standing presumption among
                                      many physicists and mathematicians
                                      is<br>
                                      that biology is a descriptive
                                      endeavor and any deep
                                      understanding of the<br>
                                      living frame must issue from their
                                      more rigorous disciplines.
                                      Nonetheless,<br>
                                      neither physics nor mathematics
                                      has explained the non-equilibrium
                                      living<br>
                                      state in which intelligent
                                      self-referential cells deploy
                                      problem-solving<br>
                                      competencies to sustain themselves
                                      across living scales.
                                      Consequently, some<br>
                                      scientists argue that the reverse
                                      may be correct: biology might
                                      productively<br>
                                      inform physics and mathematics,
                                      offering insights into how natural
                                      laws<br>
                                      might extend beyond known physical
                                      and mathematical principles.<br>
                                      In the same spirit, examining the
                                      specific attributes of biological<br>
                                      information processing and living
                                      information management as
                                      specifically<br>
                                      exemplified by cells might provide
                                      a productive further thrust to the<br>
                                      fundamental action-logic of those
                                      theoretical information systems
                                      formulated<br>
                                      by visionary information
                                      theorists.</p>
                                    <p>To stimulate that initiative, it
                                      is proposed that information
                                      theorists might<br>
                                      direct their attention to the
                                      specific informational
                                      characteristics of intelligent,<br>
                                      measuring cells, which represent
                                      the basal strata of our living
                                      planetary<br>
                                      system.</p>
                                    <p>Several specific attributes of
                                      biological information have been<br>
                                      empirically verified at the
                                      cellular level, thereby defining
                                      the informational<br>
                                      conditions of our living system:</p>
                                    <p>--All cells are cognitive,
                                      problem-solving agents.</p>
                                    <p>--Their living context is the
                                      ambiguity of information.</p>
                                    <p>--The uncertain validity of
                                      environmental stimuli governs the
                                      cellular<br>
                                      reception, analysis, and
                                      deployment of all cellular
                                      resources.</p>
                                    <p>--Imperfect information requires
                                      cells to internally measure their<br>
                                      received information.</p>
                                    <p>--Accordingly, all cellular
                                      information is a product of
                                      infoautopoiesis,<br>
                                      entailing that all the information
                                      that any cell has about its
                                      external<br>
                                      environment is exclusive,
                                      self-referential, and
                                      self-produced.</p>
                                    <p>--Cellular infoautopiesis drives
                                      an obligatory and little
                                      appreciated<br>
                                      derivative: each cell, and then we
                                      as cellular beings, create our<br>
                                      exclusive self-referential
                                      representations of reality and act
                                      upon that<br>
                                      self-generated purview.</p>
                                    <p>--Obliged informational
                                      uncertainties stimulate the
                                      collective cellular<br>
                                      analysis of self-generated
                                      cellular information, driving
                                      ubiquitous<br>
                                      planetary multicellularity as a
                                      cellular expression of the
                                      familiar<br>
                                      'wisdom of crowds'.</p>
                                    <p>--Cellular information processing
                                      directs toward narrowing
                                      distinctions<br>
                                      on the adjacents to diminish their
                                      obligatory uncertainty gap,
                                      yielding<br>
                                      the effective minimization of
                                      surprisal in conformity with the
                                      Free<br>
                                      Energy Principle.</p>
                                    <p>--Every cell does work to sustain
                                      its self-directed state of
                                      homeorhetic<br>
                                      preferential flux.</p>
                                    <p>--Narrowing the distinctions on
                                      the adjacents as the effective<br>
                                      minimization of surprisal enables
                                      cellular predictions and<br>
                                      anticipations.</p>
                                    <p>--Self-referential cellular
                                      states of homeorhetic preference
                                      drive<br>
                                      multicellular eukaryotic
                                      macroorganic behaviors and
                                      emotions.</p>
                                    <p><strong>SOME BASIC QUESTIONS (for
                                        the discussion)</strong></p>
                                    <p>Information in the living frame
                                      has been commonly defined
                                      according to<br>
                                      Bateson’s familiar definition as a
                                      'difference that makes a
                                      difference over<br>
                                      time.' How might that definition
                                      explain internal self reference
                                      that governs<br>
                                      our lives, enabling living
                                      information management? Might
                                      other definitions<br>
                                      serve better?</p>
                                    <p>How can previously formulated
                                      information theories illuminate
                                      the cellular<br>
                                      living process within its
                                      obligatory context of
                                      informational ambiguity?<br>
                                      How do current information
                                      theories explain the presence of
                                      inference,<br>
                                      prediction, and anticipation.</p>
                                    <p>Why do these informational cues,
                                      which must first manifest at the
                                      level of<br>
                                      cells as exclusive states of
                                      self-referential homeorhetic
                                      preference, exert in<br>
                                      multicellularity as nuanced
                                      multicellular behaviors and
                                      emotions?<br>
                                      Recent research confirms the
                                      remarkable competencies of diverse<br>
                                      intelligences across living
                                      scales. How might applying
                                      information systems<br>
                                      theory contribute to our debate
                                      about any categorical distinctions
                                      between the<br>
                                      living frame and the abiotic
                                      realm? If a fluid continuum is
                                      asserted, how<br>
                                      might that be rationalized?</p>
                                    <p>Is our understanding of
                                      biological systems improved by
                                      asserting an<br>
                                      immaterial Platonic informational
                                      platform permitting cells to
                                      interrogate a<br>
                                      constrained portion of universal
                                      informational space-time (? phase
                                      space<br>
                                      partition) as part of a universal
                                      informational fabric?</p>
                                    <p>Given the extraordinary
                                      competencies of current AI systems
                                      and projected<br>
                                      future abilities, how might
                                      information theory inform
                                      constructive responses<br>
                                      to inevitable social, economic,
                                      and cultural pressures?</p>
                                    What should govern our ethical
                                    responses to the still-developing
                                    organic constructs <br>
                                     which will include synthetic
                                    combinations of digital competencies
                                    and living cells? <br>
                                    If 'consciousness' is determined to
                                    be a litmus of our ethical stance
                                    toward <br>
                                    other living entities, what
                                    practical informational threshold
                                    exists, if any? <br>
                                    <p>------------------------------------------------------------------</p>
                                  </div>
_______________________________________________ <br>
                                  Fis mailing list <br>
                                  <a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"
                                    rel="noopener" target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
                                  <br>
                                  <a
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"
                                    rel="noopener" target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
                                  <br>
                                  ---------- <br>
                                  INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS
                                  DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL <br>
                                  <br>
                                  Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer
                                  a una lista de correo gestionada por
                                  la Universidad de Zaragoza. <br>
                                  Puede encontrar toda la información
                                  sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
                                  siguiente enlace: <a
href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"
                                    rel="noopener" target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
                                  <br>
                                  Recuerde que si está suscrito a una
                                  lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
                                  baja desde la propia aplicación en el
                                  momento en que lo desee. <br>
                                  <a href="http://listas.unizar.es"
                                    rel="noopener" target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
                                  <br>
                                  ---------- </blockquote>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        _______________________________________________
                        <br>
                        Fis mailing list <br>
                        <a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"
                          rel="noopener" target="_blank"
                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                          class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
                        <br>
                        <a
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"
                          rel="noopener" target="_blank"
                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                          class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
                        <br>
                        ---------- <br>
                        INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE
                        CARÁCTER PERSONAL <br>
                        <br>
                        Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una
                        lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de
                        Zaragoza. <br>
                        Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como
                        tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a
href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"
                          rel="noopener" target="_blank"
                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                          class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
                        <br>
                        Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista
                        voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la
                        propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
                        <br>
                        <a href="http://listas.unizar.es" rel="noopener"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                          class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
                        <br>
                        ---------- </blockquote>
                    </div>
                    <div>   </div>
                    <div>   </div>
                    <span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span> <br>
                    <div class="gmail_signature" dir="ltr">
                      <div dir="ltr"> Dr. Mark William Johnson <br>
                        <div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">
                          Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health </div>
                        <div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">
                          University of Manchester </div>
                        <div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">   </div>
                        <div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"> Department of
                          Science Education </div>
                        <div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"> University of
                          Copenhagen </div>
                        <div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">   </div>
                        <div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"> Department of
                          Eye and Vision Science (honorary) </div>
                        <div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"> University of
                          Liverpool </div>
                        Phone: 07786 064505 <br>
                        Email: <a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com"
                          rel="noopener" target="_blank"
                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                          class="moz-txt-link-freetext">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>
                        <br>
                        Blog: <a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SOPq9poc-3vl-7SlVOj3yLI-dqYIjO9xvO16b4Q48lrtaRtB6K2fa2Uhx7dQtpM-i1tLaT5hg8TRQv5ngd1tt6A$"
                          rel="noopener" target="_blank"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com</a>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
              _______________________________________________ <br>
              Fis mailing list <br>
              <a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"
                moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
              <br>
              <a
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"
                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
              <br>
              ---------- <br>
              INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
              <br>
              <br>
              Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de
              correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza. <br>
              Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos
              sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a
href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"
                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
              <br>
              Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud.
              puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el
              momento en que lo desee. <br>
              <a href="http://listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"
                moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
              <br>
              ---------- </blockquote>
          </div>
          _______________________________________________<br>
          Fis mailing list<br>
          <a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"
            moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
          <a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"
            rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
            class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>
          ----------<br>
          INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
          <br>
          Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo
          gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
          Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus
          datos en el siguiente enlace: <a
href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"
            rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
            class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
          Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede
          darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que
          lo desee.<br>
          <a href="http://listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer"
            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
            class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>
          ----------<br>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
      <pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL

Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
----------
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
    </p>
  </body>
</html>