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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear List,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Quite often, the most productive
explanations in many disciplines have to run a difficult way in
between the empty over-generalization and the accumulation of
technical detail. Both aspects need each other, but rarely are
well complemented. For instance, talking about cellular
selfproduction, or autopoiesis, or the like, we forget having a
glance on the concrete way it is done. Myriads of specific
"molecular recognition events" are taking place, the most
important ones around the wondrous "machine" (?) in charge of
protein synthesis, of producing the own components--the ribosome.
When protein synthesis takes place according of the information
gathered from the environment (rather than haphazardly--presumably
in prebiotic stages) and all the signaling apparatuses are in
place, we have a truly informational way of life. Etc, etc. the
evolutionary process flies.<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">So, selfproduction based on constructed
polymers, on information gathered from the environment, on an
energy flow detected and introjected, on everything well arranged
around the life cycle... that's a condensed draft of cellular
life. It is important to keep this in mind while navigating in
between Scylla and Charybdis, as could be symbolized in the next
IAIS dialogue, between a creative generalizer and a gifted
ribosome expert. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Insightful sparks will be produced.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">All the best,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">--Pedro<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> El 18/05/2025 a las 17:10, Jason Hu
escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+SRckuDo+sx7zcRoQDAiBQKep6Q8fcOaDOOb603S5BReptvFQ@mail.gmail.com">
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Dear Joe,</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Geniuses
consider very simple questions, such as Einstein's "What is
time" or McCulloch's "What is a number." I'm not sure if FIS
members are geniuses but we can monkey-see-monkey-do. So, for
the question "what is a machine", let's consider its easier
form "Is a clock a machine?" or "Is a clock larger than the
sum of its parts? Yes or no?</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">What would be
a typical FIS member's answer? I'm curious.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">My own answer
is "Yes AND No." Without any human involved, a clock equals
the sum of its parts minus the original clock-maker's efforts
to build it in that particular structure. But "without any
human involved" is a false condition, because at least two
human roles need to be involved to define the concept
"clock." The first one is the guy who winds the spring in the
clock to provide "energy" for it to tick-tock. The second role
is the guy who reads the clock face to tell time; therefore,
the clock is realized to be a clock. These two roles, plus the
original designer/builder, enable the clock to be a clock.
Without any of them, the clock is not larger than the sum of
its parts. With human (creator/energizer/observer/user), it IS
larger than the sum of its parts! That "largeness" is simply
"clockness." <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">So if you
replace the word "clock" with "machine, " or with "LLM," or
with "AI"... you get "cybernetic perspective, second-order."</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Best - Jason</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, May 18, 2025 at
12:59 AM <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<div> Dear FIS'ers, </div>
<div> </div>
<div> <span lang="EN-US">My recent emphasis on ontology
should not be taken to mean that I am eliminativist
with respect to epistemology. I am simply concerned
with restoring the proper balance between them. Mark’s
note overall is thus very <em>à propos. </em>I just
would point out that his use of paraconsistency (PC)
is not complete, since PC, while allowing real
contradictions, remains a logic of propositions. Also,
while I welcome his reference to “a AND b”, he omitted
pointing out, as I have tried to, that this is the <em>4<sup
style="line-height:0">th</sup> </em>Lemma in the
lemmic logic of Nagarjuna and his modern interpreters.
For a more complete story, one should refer to the 3<sup
style="line-height:0">rd</sup> Lemma, the NEITHER a
NOR b. </span> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Having said that, two recent postings call, nay, cry
out for an epistemic critique - those of Jason Hu and
Paul Suni. I was surprised to learn that the last 200
years of thought have produced concepts of vitalism and
mechanism that are not fraught with errors and omissions
and are desperately in need of new approaches.
Systemics, cybernetics and informatics still reflect
predominantly Western concepts and their standard
bivalent logics. Uncertainty is safely quarantined in
the quantum domain. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> I am, also, perfectly aware that the FIS Group is
not a venue for debate on political issues. However, to
ignore completely the recent socio-political regressions
would in my opinion trivialize our discussion. Note that
I did not use the common fig leaf of "risk"
trivializing. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> I used the word Trump, as I hoped and still hope
that most of you will understand, as shorthand for the
almost unbearable attacks being made on the democratic
system in the United States based on perversions, to
begin with, of ordinary capitalism. We then are
confronted by the attempts at thought control by a
so-called "extreme right-wing" using totalitarian
techniques, augmented by AI. "Trump" means a society
whose power-structure is white, male and, again, Western
despite the inevitable "fellow-travelers" in all
categories. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Apart from my role in it, I think the discussion, a
couple of years ago, of disinformation was a good one.
In the interim, it has become so prevalent as to be
unremarkable. Note also the cases of pseudo-information
as in the recent discussion of Trump’s rule as an
“hypnocracy”. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> I am generally sympathetic to Thomas' analysis: "In
humans, this change means that there are no mental
processes without a more or less clearly recognizable
emotional involvement. The inextricable link between
information processing—and, in more highly developed
organisms, the psyche—and the body is what distinguishes
living beings." However, his sentence: "In living
beings, the main task of information processing is to
optimize options for action.", while correct, falls back
into a kind of moral neutrality when applied to humans.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div> I thus conclude that a discussion of "minds" and
machines should take into account the existence, as in
the work of the biologist E. O. Wilson, of two kinds of
minds, with tendencies to selfishness and altruism
respectively. Are information processes the same in
both? Perhaps there are some differences in the way
information and context (background) are processed by
"Trump" and by us that deserve attention? </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Although it conflicts somewhat with what I
have written, I think that John Torday's interpretation
in terms of energy is valid and very worthwhile. Further
analysis might show that an interpretation of
information_as_energy and the reverse are both valid. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Thank you, </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Joseph </div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> Le 17.05.2025 23:25 CEST, Mark Johnson <<a
href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>>
a écrit : </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"> Dear Bill, Mike and John
<div> </div>
<div> First of all thank you to Bill and Mike for
continuing the very stimulating discussion that
began in the video call a few weeks ago. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> There are, as is often the case on FIS, a
number of ontological assertions flying around
which make navigating this space rather
difficult. Mike does his best to address this
head-on in his identification of two fundamental
problems: "First, the belief that we can
objectively and uniquely nail down what
something is. And second, that our formal models
of life, computers or materials tell the entire
story of their capabilities and limitations." </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Channelling Warren McCulloch, and perhaps in
response to those who ask "what is a machine?",
I would like to ask "What is a machine that we
might know it, and what are we that we might
know a machine?" </div>
<div> </div>
<div> What follows from the formulation such a
question (whether you ask about number,
distinction, etc), is that any determination of
"what a machine is" - the "it" of a machine - is
both contingent and necessary. It is contingent
because it must depend on the determination by
the observer (Maturana). It is necessary because
without any determination of what a machine is,
we would have no machines, no science, no
institutions, no coordination - the world would
not be like the world we experience. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Our arguments about ontology are an
expression of the contingency of definition. The
fact that we keep on going at it is indicative
of the necessity of definition. We perhaps
should be mindful that alongside contingency, is
paraconsistency in definition: it is not x OR y,
information OR energy. It is probably x AND y.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div> This gives rise to something that doesn't
often come up on this list, which I have been
reflecting on, which is dialectic. If you take
necessity and contingency together, you get a
dialectical process. This is political. I know
(I'm sure he won't mind me saying this) that
behind John's passionate emphasis on energy is a
personal story about the pathology of humankind,
and a fear that misapprehending the underlying
mechanism of evolutionary development will lead
to the kind of terrible consequences we saw in
the middle of the last century. Personally, I
very swayed by his arguments - they run very
deep. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Indeed, behind much of the anxiety of AI are
political feelings, which are not properly
inspected. As scientists, we are often rather
too buttoned-up, pretending this is all
completely rational. Well, we know it isn't.
There are feasible dystopias and infeasible
dystopias, and equally infeasible utopias. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> The politics comes from the dialectics which
comes from the contingency and necessity of
definition of what a machine is. This is not to
say that there cannot be coordinated stability
through science. But it fundamentally requires
trust and humility, and acceptance of
contingency and paraconsistency. As Von Foerster
pointed out many years ago, the word "truth" has
the same root as the word "trust" (see <a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/Mc6YFUoPWSI?feature=shared__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SOPq9poc-3vl-7SlVOj3yLI-dqYIjO9xvO16b4Q48lrtaRtB6K2fa2Uhx7dQtpM-i1tLaT5hg8TRQv5nhrKJK3Q$"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://youtu.be/Mc6YFUoPWSI?feature=shared</a>)
</div>
<div> </div>
<div> Trust appears to be some kind of
physiological process. Do machines help us to
trust each other? Well, what do you think?
You're in a machine right now. Do you trust me?
If this wasn't email, what might we do to
engender trust between us better? Could a
machine help? How? </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Best wishes, </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Mark </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr"> On Wed, 14 May
2025 at 22:02, JOHN TORDAY <<a
href="mailto:jtorday@ucla.edu" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jtorday@ucla.edu</a>>
wrote: </div>
<blockquote>
<div dir="ltr">
<div> <span style="font-size:large">Dear
Pedro, Bill and fis,with all due respect,
I have attached my replies to Bill's </span><strong><span
style="font-size:large">Information in a
cellular framework – abstract for
discussion</span></strong> </div>
<strong><span style="font-size:large">William
B. Miller, Jr.</span></strong>
<div> <span style="font-size:large"><strong><br>
</strong></span>
<div>
<div class="gmail_signature" dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div> John S. Torday </div>
<div dir="ltr"> Professor of
Pediatrics
<div> Obstetrics and Gynecology </div>
<div> Evolutionary Medicine </div>
<div> UCLA </div>
<div> </div>
<div> <em>Fellow, The European
Academy of Science and Arts</em>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">
---------- Forwarded message --------- <br>
From: <strong class="gmail_sendername"
dir="auto">JOHN TORDAY</strong> <span
dir="auto"><<a
href="mailto:jtorday@ucla.edu"
rel="noopener" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jtorday@ucla.edu</a>></span>
<br>
Date: Wed, May 14, 2025 at 4:56 PM <br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Bill Miller's
contribution <br>
To: Pedro C. Marijuán <<a
href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" rel="noopener" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div> Dear Pedro and Bill and fis, I
have attached my responses to Bill's
"Information in a Cellular
Framework"..... </div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_signature" dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div> John S. Torday </div>
<div dir="ltr"> Professor of
Pediatrics
<div> Obstetrics and
Gynecology </div>
<div> Evolutionary Medicine </div>
<div> UCLA </div>
<div> </div>
<div> <em>Fellow, The
European Academy of
Science and Arts</em> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr"> On
Wed, May 14, 2025 at 3:45 PM Pedro C.
Marijuán <<a
href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" rel="noopener" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>>
wrote: </div>
<blockquote>
<div> Given the archive difficulties
with attached files, systematically
scrubbed by the server, I am posting
Bill's text as a regular message
(today I finally could do that!). <br>
It is an angle pretty different from
the mechanism/non mechanism
one... Regards --Pedro <br>
-------------------------------------------------
<p><strong><span
style="font-size:large">Information
in a cellular framework –
abstract for discussion<br>
William B. Miller, Jr.</span></strong></p>
<p>A long-standing presumption among
many physicists and mathematicians
is<br>
that biology is a descriptive
endeavor and any deep
understanding of the<br>
living frame must issue from their
more rigorous disciplines.
Nonetheless,<br>
neither physics nor mathematics
has explained the non-equilibrium
living<br>
state in which intelligent
self-referential cells deploy
problem-solving<br>
competencies to sustain themselves
across living scales.
Consequently, some<br>
scientists argue that the reverse
may be correct: biology might
productively<br>
inform physics and mathematics,
offering insights into how natural
laws<br>
might extend beyond known physical
and mathematical principles.<br>
In the same spirit, examining the
specific attributes of biological<br>
information processing and living
information management as
specifically<br>
exemplified by cells might provide
a productive further thrust to the<br>
fundamental action-logic of those
theoretical information systems
formulated<br>
by visionary information
theorists.</p>
<p>To stimulate that initiative, it
is proposed that information
theorists might<br>
direct their attention to the
specific informational
characteristics of intelligent,<br>
measuring cells, which represent
the basal strata of our living
planetary<br>
system.</p>
<p>Several specific attributes of
biological information have been<br>
empirically verified at the
cellular level, thereby defining
the informational<br>
conditions of our living system:</p>
<p>--All cells are cognitive,
problem-solving agents.</p>
<p>--Their living context is the
ambiguity of information.</p>
<p>--The uncertain validity of
environmental stimuli governs the
cellular<br>
reception, analysis, and
deployment of all cellular
resources.</p>
<p>--Imperfect information requires
cells to internally measure their<br>
received information.</p>
<p>--Accordingly, all cellular
information is a product of
infoautopoiesis,<br>
entailing that all the information
that any cell has about its
external<br>
environment is exclusive,
self-referential, and
self-produced.</p>
<p>--Cellular infoautopiesis drives
an obligatory and little
appreciated<br>
derivative: each cell, and then we
as cellular beings, create our<br>
exclusive self-referential
representations of reality and act
upon that<br>
self-generated purview.</p>
<p>--Obliged informational
uncertainties stimulate the
collective cellular<br>
analysis of self-generated
cellular information, driving
ubiquitous<br>
planetary multicellularity as a
cellular expression of the
familiar<br>
'wisdom of crowds'.</p>
<p>--Cellular information processing
directs toward narrowing
distinctions<br>
on the adjacents to diminish their
obligatory uncertainty gap,
yielding<br>
the effective minimization of
surprisal in conformity with the
Free<br>
Energy Principle.</p>
<p>--Every cell does work to sustain
its self-directed state of
homeorhetic<br>
preferential flux.</p>
<p>--Narrowing the distinctions on
the adjacents as the effective<br>
minimization of surprisal enables
cellular predictions and<br>
anticipations.</p>
<p>--Self-referential cellular
states of homeorhetic preference
drive<br>
multicellular eukaryotic
macroorganic behaviors and
emotions.</p>
<p><strong>SOME BASIC QUESTIONS (for
the discussion)</strong></p>
<p>Information in the living frame
has been commonly defined
according to<br>
Bateson’s familiar definition as a
'difference that makes a
difference over<br>
time.' How might that definition
explain internal self reference
that governs<br>
our lives, enabling living
information management? Might
other definitions<br>
serve better?</p>
<p>How can previously formulated
information theories illuminate
the cellular<br>
living process within its
obligatory context of
informational ambiguity?<br>
How do current information
theories explain the presence of
inference,<br>
prediction, and anticipation.</p>
<p>Why do these informational cues,
which must first manifest at the
level of<br>
cells as exclusive states of
self-referential homeorhetic
preference, exert in<br>
multicellularity as nuanced
multicellular behaviors and
emotions?<br>
Recent research confirms the
remarkable competencies of diverse<br>
intelligences across living
scales. How might applying
information systems<br>
theory contribute to our debate
about any categorical distinctions
between the<br>
living frame and the abiotic
realm? If a fluid continuum is
asserted, how<br>
might that be rationalized?</p>
<p>Is our understanding of
biological systems improved by
asserting an<br>
immaterial Platonic informational
platform permitting cells to
interrogate a<br>
constrained portion of universal
informational space-time (? phase
space<br>
partition) as part of a universal
informational fabric?</p>
<p>Given the extraordinary
competencies of current AI systems
and projected<br>
future abilities, how might
information theory inform
constructive responses<br>
to inevitable social, economic,
and cultural pressures?</p>
What should govern our ethical
responses to the still-developing
organic constructs <br>
which will include synthetic
combinations of digital competencies
and living cells? <br>
If 'consciousness' is determined to
be a litmus of our ethical stance
toward <br>
other living entities, what
practical informational threshold
exists, if any? <br>
<p>------------------------------------------------------------------</p>
</div>
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<div> </div>
<span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span> <br>
<div class="gmail_signature" dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"> Dr. Mark William Johnson <br>
<div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">
Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health </div>
<div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">
University of Manchester </div>
<div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"> Department of
Science Education </div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"> University of
Copenhagen </div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"> Department of
Eye and Vision Science (honorary) </div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"> University of
Liverpool </div>
Phone: 07786 064505 <br>
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<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
----------
</pre>
</blockquote>
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