<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Well… the spiral for us is always open in a way that does not occur for machines or algorithms. But algorithms do spiral.<div class="">For example consider how we find prime numbers. We start with 2 and strike out all of its multiples then we strike out all multiples of 3 and so on.</div><div class="">If we strike out e.g. all multiples of 2,3 and 5 then the numbers that are left < 25 are all the primes less than 5^2 = 25. But now we know a lot of primes:</div><div class="">2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23, And if we strike with these we get all the primes less than 23^2 = 529. Knowing these … So finding the primes, spirals in this way.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">We stand back and appreciate, think about, ask questions of this spiraling process. The fact that in principle we can always stand back is key.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This is probably why some of our best friends are machines.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Penrose likes to use a diagram of a chess position to point out the difference between humans and machines. In the position, a human can see at once from the distinction made by the pawn structure that the game is a draw. No calculation needed, just an understanding of structure. A nearsighted robot only calculating moves would not see it. A better programming might see it, but the point about how understanding trumps calculation is important. And a machine structure following rules only “does not have understanding”. Ha! Maybe this is wrong. Go speak to ChatGPT about it.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On May 14, 2025, at 2:43 AM, <a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" class="">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta charset="UTF-8" class=""><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13pt;" class="">Dear Lou and All,</span></div><div class="default-style" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"> </div><div class="default-style" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="font-size: 13pt;" class="">This is my idea of a good question. Another is what is the distinction, if not mind, between</span><span style="font-size: 13pt;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>human life and machines. The systems we call human beings instantiate lots of machines: pumps, levers, on-off switches and so on. However, their recursive behavior, to use Lou's term is for me solely circular or "cyclic", not "spiral".</span></div><div class="default-style" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"> </div><div class="default-style" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="font-size: 13pt;" class="">We have here, I think, a case for simplexity in the acceptation of A. Berthoz (<em class="">La Simplexité</em><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(Jacob, Paris, 2009). M</span><span style="font-size: 13pt;" class="">achines operate<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><em class="">with</em><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>information; human minds operate<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><em class="">on<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></em>information. </span></div><div class="default-style" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"> </div><div class="default-style" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="font-size: 13pt;" class="">With apologies to the American humorist Will Rogers (1879 - 1935): "I never met a machine I didn't like!"</span></div><div class="default-style" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"> </div><div class="default-style" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="font-size: 13pt;" class="">Thank you and best wishes,</span></div><div class="default-style" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="font-size: 13pt;" class="">Joseph</span></div><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><div class="">Le 13.05.2025 20:53 CEST, Louis Kauffman <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" class="">loukau@gmail.com</a>> a écrit :</div><div class=""> </div><div class=""> </div><div class="">Dear Folks,</div>A key question for this discussion is: What is a machine?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><div class="">One working definition of a machine is that it is an instantiation in physical processes of a specified system of rules and procedures.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><div class="">In other words a machine is a realization of a formal system in the sense of mathematical logic. Thus realized Turing machines are machines in this sense.</div><div class="">Note that behaviors of such machines, happening recursively, are not mathematically predictable in general. Machine behaviours go beyond the possibilities of mathematical prediction to processes unfolding in time.</div><div class=""> </div><div class="">One may want to extend this definition to at least machines that are<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="font-size: 13pt;" class="">self-modifyinDeg</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>in terms of their own rules and procedures, and one may want to discuss the extent to which a biological organism's behaviours can be “captured” by such a set of rules, and how our finding such rules is a reflection of our interaction/observation leading to knowledge of the organism.</div><div class="">Best,</div><div class="">Lou Kauffman</div><div class=""> </div><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On May 13, 2025, at 8:27 AM, Pedro C. Marijuán <<a class="" href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><div class=""><div class=""><p class=""><span class="" style="font-size: x-large;">Mind, Life & Machines</span></p><p class=""><strong class=""><span class="" style="font-size: large;">From Mike Levin: Living Things Are Not Machines (Also, They<br class="">Totally Are)</span></strong></p><p class="">To start with, different contexts require us to adopt diverse perspectives as to<br class="">how much mind, or mechanism, is before us. The continuing battle over whether<br class="">living beings are or are not machines is based on two mistaken but pervasive<br class="">beliefs. First, the belief that we can objectively and uniquely nail down what<br class="">something is. And second, that our formal models of life, computers or materials<br class="">tell the entire story of their capabilities and limitations.</p><p class="">Despite the continued expansion and mainstream prominence of molecular<br class="">biology, and its reductionist machine metaphors, or likely because of it, there has<br class="">been an increasing upsurge of papers and science social media posts arguing that<br class="">“living things are not machines” (LTNM). There are thoughtful, informative,<br class="">nuanced pieces exploring this direction, such as this exploration of “new post-<br class="">genomic biology” and others, masterfully reviewed and analyzed by cognitive<br class="">scientist and historian Ann-Sophie Barwich and historian Matthew James<br class="">Rodriguez at Indiana University Bloomington. (A non-exhaustive list includes<br class="">engineer Perry Marshall’s look at how biology transcends the limits of<br class="">computation, computer scientist Alexander Ororbia’s discussion of “mortal<br class="">computation,” biologist Stuart Kauffman and computer scientist Andrea Roli’s<br class="">look at the evolution of the biosphere, and the works of philosophers like Daniel<br class="">Nicholson, George Kampis and Günther Witzani.)</p><p class="">Many others, however, use the siren song of biological exceptionalism and<br class="">outdated or poorly defined notions of “machines” to push a view that misleads lay<br class="">readers and stalls progress in fields such as evolution, cell biology, biomedicine,<br class="">cognitive science (and basal cognition), computer science, bioengineering,<br class="">philosophy and more. All of these fields are held back by hidden assumptions<br class="">within the LTNM-lens that are better shed in favor of a more fundamental framework.</p>In arguing against LTNM, I use cognitive science-based <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">approaches to understand and manipulate biological substrates.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">I have claimed that cognition goes all the way down to the molecular level; after all,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">we find memory and learning in small networks of mutually interacting<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">chemicals, and studies show that molecular circuits can act as agential materials.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">I take the existence of goals, preferences, problem-solving skills, attention,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">memories, etc., in biological substrates such as cells and tissues so seriously that<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">I’ve staked my entire laboratory career on this approach.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">Some molecular biology colleagues consider my views — that bottom-up<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">molecular approaches simply won’t suffice, and must be augmented with the tools<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">and concepts of cognitive science — to be an extreme form of animism. Thus, my<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">quarrel with LTNM is not coming from a place of sympathy with molecular<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">reductionism; I consider myself squarely within the organicist tradition of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">theoretical biologists like Denis Noble, Brian Goodwin, Robert Rosen, Francisco<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Varela and Humberto Maturana, whose works all focus on the irreducible,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">creative, agential quality of life; however, I want to push this view further than<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">many of its adherents might.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">LTNM must go, but we should not replace this concept with its opposite, <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">the dreaded presumption that living things are machines;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">that is equally wrong and also holds back progress.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Still, it is easy to see why the LTNM-lens persists. The LTNM framing gives the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">feeling that one has said something powerful — cut nature at its joints with<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">respect to the most important thing there is, life and mind, by establishing a<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">fundamental category that separates life from the rest of the cold, inanimate<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">universe. It feels as if it forestalls the constant, pernicious efforts to reduce the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">majesty of life to predictable mechanisms with no ability to drive consideration or<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">the first-person experiences that make life worth living.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">“Many use the siren song of biological exceptionalism and outdated<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">or poorly defined notions of ‘machines’ to push a view that misleads<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">lay readers and stalls progress.”<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">But this is all smoke and mirrors, from an idea that took hold as a bulwark against<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">reductionism and mechanism; it refuses to go away even though we have<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">outgrown it. The approach I am advocating for is anchored by the principles of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">pluralism and pragmatism: no system definitively is our formal model of it, but if<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">we move beyond expecting everything to be a nail for one particular favorite<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">hammer, we are freed up to do the important work of actually characterizing the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">sets of tools that may open new frontiers.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">As scientists and philosophers, we owe everyone realistic stories of scaling and<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">gradual metamorphosis along a continuum — not of magical and sharp<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">transitions — and a description of the tools we propose to use to interact with a<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">wide range of systems, along with a commitment to empirical evaluation of those<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">tools. We must battle our innate mind-blindness with new theories in the field of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Diverse Intelligence and the facilitating technology it enables, much as a theory<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">and apparatus for electromagnetism enabled access to an enormous, unifying<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">spectrum of phenomena of which we had previously had only narrow, disparate-<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">seeming glimpses. We must resist the urge to see the limits of reality in the limits<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">of our formal models. Everything, even things that look simple to us, are a lot<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">more than we think they are because we, too, are finite observers — wondrous<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">embodied minds with limited perspectives but massive potential and the moral<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">responsibility to get this (at least somewhat) right.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><em class=""><br class=""></em><br class=""><em class="">See an enlarged version of this text at:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></em><br class=""><p class=""><em class=""><span class="" dir="ltr" role="presentation" style="left: 4.320000171661377%; top: 97.04000091552734%; font-size: calc(var(--scale-factor)*8px); font-family: serif; transform: scaleX(0.914424);"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.noemamag.com/living-things-are-not-machines-also-they-totally-are/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TuRf27kMqxXb6vn61GDuY5SQFOpW-2bJsv9g_xjpV95LAvd4KXEvjSvlYJyKOCwm5VRzNhHx_qeJdN1pix7IJbKTwFLX$">https://www.noemamag.com/living-things-are-not-machines-also-they-totally-are/</a></span></em></p><p class=""><em class=""><span class="" dir="ltr" role="presentation" style="left: 4.320000171661377%; top: 97.04000091552734%; font-size: calc(var(--scale-factor)*8px); font-family: serif; transform: scaleX(0.914424);">-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br class=""></span><span class="" dir="ltr" role="presentation" style="left: 47.290000915527344%; top: 97.04000091552734%; font-size: calc(var(--scale-factor)*8px); font-family: serif;"></span></em></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify;"><span class=""><span class="" style="font-size: large;"><strong class=""> From William B. Miller, Jr. :<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></strong></span></span><span class="" style="font-size: large;"><strong class=""><span class="">Information in a cellular framework</span></strong><span class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>– abstract for discussion</span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify;"><span class="" style="font-size: large;"><span class="">See in the accompanying attached file (for technical reasons)<br class=""></span></span></p><div class="" align="left"><blockquote class=""><div class="" style="text-align: center;"><span class="" style="font-size: x-large;"><span class=""> </span></span></div></blockquote></div><br class=""><div class="" style="text-align: justify;"><span class=""> </span></div><div class="" style="text-align: justify;"><span class=""> </span></div><span class="" dir="ltr" role="presentation" style="left: 47.290000915527344%; top: 97.04000091552734%; font-size: calc(var(--scale-factor)*8px); font-family: serif;"></span></div><span id="cid:47CD06F7-FD49-44BD-88F5-6D7C30D846B1" class=""><Information in a cellular framework - FIS.doc></span>_______________________________________________<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Fis mailing list<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><a class="" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">----------<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">INFORMACI�N SOBRE PROTECCI�N DE DATOS DE CAR�CTER PERSONAL<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Puede encontrar toda la informaci�n sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Recuerde que si est� suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicaci�n en el momento en que lo desee.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" class="">http://listas.unizar.es</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">----------</div></blockquote></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Fis mailing list<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">----------<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" class="">http://listas.unizar.es</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">----------</blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>