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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Dear All,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">One possible approach</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">, building on Mike and
Bills texts,</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> is to study the
<b>triad</b> of life, mind, and machine</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">/</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">mechanism and the</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">ir</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">
mutual dependencies</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">,
<br>
as they evolve simultaneously</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">
<span lang="EN-GB">The link is the human (as an observer and actor in relation to all three of them).
<br>
The focus in on the dynamic, changing triadic relationship.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">In design,
<i>biomimicry</i> is a</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">n</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">important</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> strategy: we learn from nature</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">,
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">especially</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">from living systems</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">,
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">to create artefacts based on
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">the same</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> principles</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">
<span lang="EN-GB">(as we understand them at a given moment)</span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">.
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""><br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Intelligent machines and robots, for instance, are products of</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">biomimetic design.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">
<span lang="EN-GB"><br>
At the same time we use our artifacts to learn about nature, as described by Lila Kari and
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/1400181.1400200__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WuJ5s4Sl0sOOKqW_T6IAPnsC7vLDPHOBOwgKG0mywYo8oP_kq-nFRcwoF-RKwJWzzNcgbzubA6ZVJ1ZKDWOw6Q7ZdyV-vQ0p$" title="Grzegorz Rozenberg">
<span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">Grzegorz Rozenberg</span></a> in the article
<i>The many facets of natural </i></span></span><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">computing</span></i><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">,
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/1400181.1400200__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WuJ5s4Sl0sOOKqW_T6IAPnsC7vLDPHOBOwgKG0mywYo8oP_kq-nFRcwoF-RKwJWzzNcgbzubA6ZVJ1ZKDWOw6Q7ZdyV-vQ0p$">https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/1400181.1400200</a><b><o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">The
</span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">triad</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">(</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">life, mind, machine</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">/</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">mechanism</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">)</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">is</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> constantly evolving.
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""><br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Our understanding of
<i>“mind”</i></span><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">(cognition) and
<i>“life”</i></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">(the organisation of
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">cellular</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> cognition) grows alongside advances in artificial intelligence</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">(AI)
and artificial life</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">(AL), even as those very concepts keep developing as we uncover more about living beings, their processes,
and their origins.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">In short, these
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">three
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">concepts are both evolving and mutually dependent.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">We can see the triad as a looping continuum</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">,
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">life</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> → </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">mind</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> → </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">machine
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">→ </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">back</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">,</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">as
a set of feedback loops. <br>
Each pair informs</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">and defines</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">the third:</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""><br>
Life</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">↔</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Mind </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">- continuum (matter-life-mind continuum realized through evolution)<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Life</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">↔</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Machine
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">- </span>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">building organisms out of hardware and code</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">, building hardware and code biomimetically</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""><br>
Mind</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">↔</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Machine</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">
-</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> from cybernetics to the extended mind</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> and back</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">All the best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Gordana<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Fis <fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es> on behalf of "Pedro C. Marijuán" <pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, 13 May 2025 at 15:31<br>
<b>To: </b>'fis' <fis@listas.unizar.es><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[Fis] Mind, Life & Machines<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p><span style="font-size:18.0pt">Mind, Life & Machines</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt">From Mike Levin: Living Things Are Not Machines (Also, They<br>
Totally Are)</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>To start with, different contexts require us to adopt diverse perspectives as to<br>
how much mind, or mechanism, is before us. The continuing battle over whether<br>
living beings are or are not machines is based on two mistaken but pervasive<br>
beliefs. First, the belief that we can objectively and uniquely nail down what<br>
something is. And second, that our formal models of life, computers or materials<br>
tell the entire story of their capabilities and limitations.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Despite the continued expansion and mainstream prominence of molecular<br>
biology, and its reductionist machine metaphors, or likely because of it, there has<br>
been an increasing upsurge of papers and science social media posts arguing that<br>
“living things are not machines” (LTNM). There are thoughtful, informative,<br>
nuanced pieces exploring this direction, such as this exploration of “new post-<br>
genomic biology” and others, masterfully reviewed and analyzed by cognitive<br>
scientist and historian Ann-Sophie Barwich and historian Matthew James<br>
Rodriguez at Indiana University Bloomington. (A non-exhaustive list includes<br>
engineer Perry Marshall’s look at how biology transcends the limits of<br>
computation, computer scientist Alexander Ororbia’s discussion of “mortal<br>
computation,” biologist Stuart Kauffman and computer scientist Andrea Roli’s<br>
look at the evolution of the biosphere, and the works of philosophers like Daniel<br>
Nicholson, George Kampis and Günther Witzani.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Many others, however, use the siren song of biological exceptionalism and<br>
outdated or poorly defined notions of “machines” to push a view that misleads lay<br>
readers and stalls progress in fields such as evolution, cell biology, biomedicine,<br>
cognitive science (and basal cognition), computer science, bioengineering,<br>
philosophy and more. All of these fields are held back by hidden assumptions<br>
within the LTNM-lens that are better shed in favor of a more fundamental framework.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In arguing against LTNM, I use cognitive science-based <br>
approaches to understand and manipulate biological substrates.<br>
I have claimed that cognition goes all the way down to the molecular level; after all,<br>
we find memory and learning in small networks of mutually interacting<br>
chemicals, and studies show that molecular circuits can act as agential materials.<br>
I take the existence of goals, preferences, problem-solving skills, attention,<br>
memories, etc., in biological substrates such as cells and tissues so seriously that<br>
I’ve staked my entire laboratory career on this approach.<br>
<br>
Some molecular biology colleagues consider my views — that bottom-up<br>
molecular approaches simply won’t suffice, and must be augmented with the tools<br>
and concepts of cognitive science — to be an extreme form of animism. Thus, my<br>
quarrel with LTNM is not coming from a place of sympathy with molecular<br>
reductionism; I consider myself squarely within the organicist tradition of<br>
theoretical biologists like Denis Noble, Brian Goodwin, Robert Rosen, Francisco<br>
Varela and Humberto Maturana, whose works all focus on the irreducible,<br>
creative, agential quality of life; however, I want to push this view further than<br>
many of its adherents might.<br>
<br>
LTNM must go, but we should not replace this concept with its opposite, <br>
the dreaded presumption that living things are machines;<br>
that is equally wrong and also holds back progress.<br>
Still, it is easy to see why the LTNM-lens persists. The LTNM framing gives the<br>
feeling that one has said something powerful — cut nature at its joints with<br>
respect to the most important thing there is, life and mind, by establishing a<br>
fundamental category that separates life from the rest of the cold, inanimate<br>
universe. It feels as if it forestalls the constant, pernicious efforts to reduce the<br>
majesty of life to predictable mechanisms with no ability to drive consideration or<br>
the first-person experiences that make life worth living.<br>
“Many use the siren song of biological exceptionalism and outdated<br>
or poorly defined notions of ‘machines’ to push a view that misleads<br>
lay readers and stalls progress.”<br>
<br>
But this is all smoke and mirrors, from an idea that took hold as a bulwark against<br>
reductionism and mechanism; it refuses to go away even though we have<br>
outgrown it. The approach I am advocating for is anchored by the principles of<br>
pluralism and pragmatism: no system definitively is our formal model of it, but if<br>
we move beyond expecting everything to be a nail for one particular favorite<br>
hammer, we are freed up to do the important work of actually characterizing the<br>
sets of tools that may open new frontiers.<br>
<br>
As scientists and philosophers, we owe everyone realistic stories of scaling and<br>
gradual metamorphosis along a continuum — not of magical and sharp<br>
transitions — and a description of the tools we propose to use to interact with a<br>
wide range of systems, along with a commitment to empirical evaluation of those<br>
tools. We must battle our innate mind-blindness with new theories in the field of<br>
Diverse Intelligence and the facilitating technology it enables, much as a theory<br>
and apparatus for electromagnetism enabled access to an enormous, unifying<br>
spectrum of phenomena of which we had previously had only narrow, disparate-<br>
seeming glimpses. We must resist the urge to see the limits of reality in the limits<br>
of our formal models. Everything, even things that look simple to us, are a lot<br>
more than we think they are because we, too, are finite observers — wondrous<br>
embodied minds with limited perspectives but massive potential and the moral<br>
responsibility to get this (at least somewhat) right.<br>
<i><br>
</i><br>
<i>See an enlarged version of this text at: </i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><i><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.noemamag.com/living-things-are-not-machines-also-they-totally-are/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TuRf27kMqxXb6vn61GDuY5SQFOpW-2bJsv9g_xjpV95LAvd4KXEvjSvlYJyKOCwm5VRzNhHx_qeJdN1pix7IJbKTwFLX$">https://www.noemamag.com/living-things-are-not-machines-also-they-totally-are/</a></span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><i><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:justify">
<b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:13.5pt"> From William B. Miller, Jr. : Information in a cellular framework</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:13.5pt"> – abstract for discussion</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:justify">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:13.5pt">See in the accompanying attached file (for technical reasons)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:center">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:18.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
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