<!doctype html>
<html>
<head>
<meta charset="UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<div>
<span style="font-size: 13pt;">Dear All,</span>
</div>
<div class="default-style">
</div>
<div class="default-style">
<span style="font-size: 13pt;">1. Because of the frequency with which the phrase "some of my best friends" has been used, it is conceivable that a machine could identify its original horrendous context. However, I doubt that a machine could define the meaning it had and still has for many people. </span>
</div>
<div class="default-style">
<span style="font-size: 13pt;"> </span>
</div>
<div class="default-style">
<span style="font-size: 13pt;">2. Wu Kun has defined the sets of all the information processes associated with an individual human being - past present and future - as an "informosome". I do not believe that machines can operate with informosomes that include, among other things, the meanings and feelings of the first paragraph above.</span>
</div>
<div class="default-style">
</div>
<div class="default-style">
<span style="font-size: 13pt;">3. I conclude that it is an open question whether mind and machines can be talked about in the same "breath", where breath is to be understood in its Chinese and other Eastern sense, that includes formlessness and non-being. </span>
</div>
<div class="default-style">
</div>
<div class="default-style">
<span style="font-size: 13pt;">4. Machines and machine thinking are powerful enough. There is no need for their handlers to try to explain everything with them.</span>
</div>
<div class="default-style">
<span style="font-size: 13pt;">Having reached the summit of power, Trump still had to expose again his nullity by attacking Biden and claiming his election in 2020 was rigged.</span>
</div>
<div class="default-style">
</div>
<div class="default-style">
<span style="font-size: 13pt;">Thank you.</span>
</div>
<div class="default-style">
<span style="font-size: 13pt;">Joseph</span>
</div>
<div class="default-style">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
Le 14.05.2025 11:01 CEST, Louis Kauffman <loukau@gmail.com> a écrit :
</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
</div> Well… the spiral for us is always open in a way that does not occur for machines or algorithms. But algorithms do spiral.
<div class="">
For example consider how we find prime numbers. We start with 2 and strike out all of its multiples then we strike out all multiples of 3 and so on.
</div>
<div class="">
If we strike out e.g. all multiples of 2,3 and 5 then the numbers that are left < 25 are all the primes less than 5^2 = 25. But now we know a lot of primes:
</div>
<div class="">
2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23, And if we strike with these we get all the primes less than 23^2 = 529. Knowing these … So finding the primes, spirals in this way.
</div>
<div class="">
</div>
<div class="">
We stand back and appreciate, think about, ask questions of this spiraling process. The fact that in principle we can always stand back is key.
</div>
<div class="">
</div>
<div class="">
This is probably why some of our best friends are machines.
</div>
<div class="">
</div>
<div class="">
Penrose likes to use a diagram of a chess position to point out the difference between humans and machines. In the position, a human can see at once from the distinction made by the pawn structure that the game is a draw. No calculation needed, just an understanding of structure. A nearsighted robot only calculating moves would not see it. A better programming might see it, but the point about how understanding trumps calculation is important. And a machine structure following rules only “does not have understanding”. Ha! Maybe this is wrong. Go speak to ChatGPT about it.
</div>
<div class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<br class="">
<div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="">
On May 14, 2025, at 2:43 AM, <a class="" href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> wrote:
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<span class="" style="font-size: 13pt;">Dear Lou and All,</span>
</div>
<div class="default-style" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
</div>
<div class="default-style" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<span class="" style="font-size: 13pt;">This is my idea of a good question. Another is what is the distinction, if not mind, between</span><span class="" style="font-size: 13pt;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>human life and machines. The systems we call human beings instantiate lots of machines: pumps, levers, on-off switches and so on. However, their recursive behavior, to use Lou's term is for me solely circular or "cyclic", not "spiral".</span>
</div>
<div class="default-style" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
</div>
<div class="default-style" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<span class="" style="font-size: 13pt;">We have here, I think, a case for simplexity in the acceptation of A. Berthoz (<em class="">La Simplexité</em><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(Jacob, Paris, 2009). M</span><span class="" style="font-size: 13pt;">achines operate<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><em class="">with</em><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>information; human minds operate<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><em class="">on<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></em>information. </span>
</div>
<div class="default-style" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
</div>
<div class="default-style" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<span class="" style="font-size: 13pt;">With apologies to the American humorist Will Rogers (1879 - 1935): "I never met a machine I didn't like!"</span>
</div>
<div class="default-style" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
</div>
<div class="default-style" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<span class="" style="font-size: 13pt;">Thank you and best wishes,</span>
</div>
<div class="default-style" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<span class="" style="font-size: 13pt;">Joseph</span>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="">
Le 13.05.2025 20:53 CEST, Louis Kauffman <<a class="" href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com">loukau@gmail.com</a>> a écrit :
</div>
<div class="">
</div>
<div class="">
</div>
<div class="">
Dear Folks,
</div> A key question for this discussion is: What is a machine?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<div class="">
One working definition of a machine is that it is an instantiation in physical processes of a specified system of rules and procedures.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<div class="">
In other words a machine is a realization of a formal system in the sense of mathematical logic. Thus realized Turing machines are machines in this sense.
</div>
<div class="">
Note that behaviors of such machines, happening recursively, are not mathematically predictable in general. Machine behaviours go beyond the possibilities of mathematical prediction to processes unfolding in time.
</div>
<div class="">
</div>
<div class="">
One may want to extend this definition to at least machines that are<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="" style="font-size: 13pt;">self-modifyinDeg</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>in terms of their own rules and procedures, and one may want to discuss the extent to which a biological organism's behaviours can be “captured” by such a set of rules, and how our finding such rules is a reflection of our interaction/observation leading to knowledge of the organism.
</div>
<div class="">
Best,
</div>
<div class="">
Lou Kauffman
</div>
<div class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="">
On May 13, 2025, at 8:27 AM, Pedro C. Marijuán <<a class="" href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class=""><span class="" style="font-size: x-large;">Mind, Life & Machines</span></p>
<p class=""><strong class=""><span class="" style="font-size: large;">From Mike Levin: Living Things Are Not Machines (Also, They<br class="">
Totally Are)</span></strong></p>
<p class="">To start with, different contexts require us to adopt diverse perspectives as to<br class="">
how much mind, or mechanism, is before us. The continuing battle over whether<br class="">
living beings are or are not machines is based on two mistaken but pervasive<br class="">
beliefs. First, the belief that we can objectively and uniquely nail down what<br class="">
something is. And second, that our formal models of life, computers or materials<br class="">
tell the entire story of their capabilities and limitations.</p>
<p class="">Despite the continued expansion and mainstream prominence of molecular<br class="">
biology, and its reductionist machine metaphors, or likely because of it, there has<br class="">
been an increasing upsurge of papers and science social media posts arguing that<br class="">
“living things are not machines” (LTNM). There are thoughtful, informative,<br class="">
nuanced pieces exploring this direction, such as this exploration of “new post-<br class="">
genomic biology” and others, masterfully reviewed and analyzed by cognitive<br class="">
scientist and historian Ann-Sophie Barwich and historian Matthew James<br class="">
Rodriguez at Indiana University Bloomington. (A non-exhaustive list includes<br class="">
engineer Perry Marshall’s look at how biology transcends the limits of<br class="">
computation, computer scientist Alexander Ororbia’s discussion of “mortal<br class="">
computation,” biologist Stuart Kauffman and computer scientist Andrea Roli’s<br class="">
look at the evolution of the biosphere, and the works of philosophers like Daniel<br class="">
Nicholson, George Kampis and Günther Witzani.)</p>
<p class="">Many others, however, use the siren song of biological exceptionalism and<br class="">
outdated or poorly defined notions of “machines” to push a view that misleads lay<br class="">
readers and stalls progress in fields such as evolution, cell biology, biomedicine,<br class="">
cognitive science (and basal cognition), computer science, bioengineering,<br class="">
philosophy and more. All of these fields are held back by hidden assumptions<br class="">
within the LTNM-lens that are better shed in favor of a more fundamental framework.</p> In arguing against LTNM, I use cognitive science-based <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
approaches to understand and manipulate biological substrates.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
I have claimed that cognition goes all the way down to the molecular level; after all,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
we find memory and learning in small networks of mutually interacting<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
chemicals, and studies show that molecular circuits can act as agential materials.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
I take the existence of goals, preferences, problem-solving skills, attention,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
memories, etc., in biological substrates such as cells and tissues so seriously that<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
I’ve staked my entire laboratory career on this approach.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
<br class="">
Some molecular biology colleagues consider my views — that bottom-up<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
molecular approaches simply won’t suffice, and must be augmented with the tools<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
and concepts of cognitive science — to be an extreme form of animism. Thus, my<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
quarrel with LTNM is not coming from a place of sympathy with molecular<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
reductionism; I consider myself squarely within the organicist tradition of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
theoretical biologists like Denis Noble, Brian Goodwin, Robert Rosen, Francisco<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
Varela and Humberto Maturana, whose works all focus on the irreducible,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
creative, agential quality of life; however, I want to push this view further than<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
many of its adherents might.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
<br class="">
LTNM must go, but we should not replace this concept with its opposite, <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
the dreaded presumption that living things are machines;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
that is equally wrong and also holds back progress.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
Still, it is easy to see why the LTNM-lens persists. The LTNM framing gives the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
feeling that one has said something powerful — cut nature at its joints with<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
respect to the most important thing there is, life and mind, by establishing a<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
fundamental category that separates life from the rest of the cold, inanimate<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
universe. It feels as if it forestalls the constant, pernicious efforts to reduce the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
majesty of life to predictable mechanisms with no ability to drive consideration or<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
the first-person experiences that make life worth living.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
“Many use the siren song of biological exceptionalism and outdated<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
or poorly defined notions of ‘machines’ to push a view that misleads<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
lay readers and stalls progress.”<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
<br class="">
But this is all smoke and mirrors, from an idea that took hold as a bulwark against<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
reductionism and mechanism; it refuses to go away even though we have<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
outgrown it. The approach I am advocating for is anchored by the principles of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
pluralism and pragmatism: no system definitively is our formal model of it, but if<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
we move beyond expecting everything to be a nail for one particular favorite<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
hammer, we are freed up to do the important work of actually characterizing the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
sets of tools that may open new frontiers.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
<br class="">
As scientists and philosophers, we owe everyone realistic stories of scaling and<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
gradual metamorphosis along a continuum — not of magical and sharp<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
transitions — and a description of the tools we propose to use to interact with a<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
wide range of systems, along with a commitment to empirical evaluation of those<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
tools. We must battle our innate mind-blindness with new theories in the field of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
Diverse Intelligence and the facilitating technology it enables, much as a theory<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
and apparatus for electromagnetism enabled access to an enormous, unifying<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
spectrum of phenomena of which we had previously had only narrow, disparate-<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
seeming glimpses. We must resist the urge to see the limits of reality in the limits<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
of our formal models. Everything, even things that look simple to us, are a lot<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
more than we think they are because we, too, are finite observers — wondrous<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
embodied minds with limited perspectives but massive potential and the moral<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
responsibility to get this (at least somewhat) right.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class=""><em class=""><br class=""></em>
<br class=""><em class="">See an enlarged version of this text at:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></em>
<br class="">
<p class=""><em class=""><span class="" dir="ltr" style="left: 4.320000171661377%; top: 97.04000091552734%; font-size: calc(var(--scale-factor)*8px); font-family: serif; transform: scaleX(0.914424);" role="presentation"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.noemamag.com/living-things-are-not-machines-also-they-totally-are/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TuRf27kMqxXb6vn61GDuY5SQFOpW-2bJsv9g_xjpV95LAvd4KXEvjSvlYJyKOCwm5VRzNhHx_qeJdN1pix7IJbKTwFLX$">https://www.noemamag.com/living-things-are-not-machines-also-they-totally-are/</a></span></em></p>
<p class=""><em class=""><span class="" dir="ltr" style="left: 4.320000171661377%; top: 97.04000091552734%; font-size: calc(var(--scale-factor)*8px); font-family: serif; transform: scaleX(0.914424);" role="presentation">-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br class=""></span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify;"><span class=""><span class="" style="font-size: large;"><strong class=""> From William B. Miller, Jr. :<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></strong></span></span><span class="" style="font-size: large;"><strong class=""><span class="">Information in a cellular framework</span></strong><span class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>– abstract for discussion</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify;"><span class="" style="font-size: large;"><span class="">See in the accompanying attached file (for technical reasons)<br class=""></span></span></p>
<div class="" align="left">
<blockquote>
<div class="" style="text-align: center;">
<span class="" style="font-size: x-large;"><span class=""> </span></span>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="" style="text-align: justify;">
<span class=""> </span>
</div>
<div class="" style="text-align: justify;">
<span class=""> </span>
</div>
</div><span id="cid:47CD06F7-FD49-44BD-88F5-6D7C30D846B1" class=""><Information in a cellular framework - FIS.doc></span>_______________________________________________<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
Fis mailing list<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class=""><a class="" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class=""><a class="" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
----------<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
INFORMACI�N SOBRE PROTECCI�N DE DATOS DE CAR�CTER PERSONAL<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
<br class="">
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
Puede encontrar toda la informaci�n sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
Recuerde que si est� suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicaci�n en el momento en que lo desee.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class=""><a class="" href="http://listas.unizar.es/">http://listas.unizar.es</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
----------
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div> _______________________________________________<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
Fis mailing list<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class=""><a class="" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class=""><a class="" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
----------<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
<br class="">
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class=""><a class="" href="http://listas.unizar.es/">http://listas.unizar.es</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br class="">
----------
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div> _______________________________________________
<br>
Fis mailing list
<br>
Fis@listas.unizar.es
<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
<br>
----------
<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
<br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
<br>
----------
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>