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<p>Hi Daniel and Dear Materialists,</p>
<p>Your ideas relate to my notion of the independence of information
at different levels of ontology, namely, that at a higher level of
ontology information can exist that is not reducible to the lower
level.</p>
Some more thoughts I had this and last week: <br>
<ul class="ul1"
style="list-style-type: disc; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">
<h1
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font: 28px Times; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0); white-space: normal; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; margin: 0px 0px 16.1px;"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><b>Reality of
possibilities</b></span></h1>
<ul class="ul1"
style="list-style-type: disc; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">There are more
possibilities in most situations than there is space in the
universe to contain them</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Therefore, not all
reality is physical or in physical space time</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">The quantum mechanics
there are more possibilities than space in the universe to
contain them</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Therefore, there must
be one or more extra dimensions to contain them</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">The consciousness and
cloning problem shows the consciousness must be in another
dimension beyond our four dimensional space time</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Possibilities defined
as states</span></li>
<ul class="ul2" style="list-style-type: circle;">
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">States are defined
by their dimensions</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">The values of the
variables of the dimensions</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">States are normally
seen as being complete or every value is defined with a
specific value</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">A partial state
defines a set of possible states that complete the state</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">There are sets of
possible states that cannot be defined as partial states</span></li>
</ul>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">In quantum mechanics,
the wave function defines the set of possible states</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">A quantum state
before a measurement is viewed as a set of possible states
that may occur after the measurement</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Wave functions in
quantum mechanics can interact leading to complex quantum
states</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">What is the role of
dimensions in quantum mechanics?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">What is the role of
classical information state in quantum mechanics?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Can possibilities
interact in quantum mechanics?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Can higher
dimensional, quantum states or states in general interact
with other dimensional spaces?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Is mass determined by
a set of possible states?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Do possibilities have
mass?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Do possibilities take
up space?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">If a system is in a
set of possible states, do those possible states take up
space and have mass?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Is the mass of a
system determined in part by its possible states?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">How is this related
to it from bit?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Can binary reduction
define quantum possibilities?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">What is the role of
definitions in possibility concepts in quantum mechanics and
classical views of the world?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">For the subject when
considering possibilities, each possibility takes up space
in the neural network to even be realized and considered.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Probabilities avoid
the formalization of each particular state. Or do they?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Does quantum
computation assume the existence of quantum possible states?</span></li>
<ul class="ul2" style="list-style-type: circle;">
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Do they take up
space</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Do they have mass?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Do they take up or
use energy?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Are there inherent
limits the quantum computing because of the limits on the
representations of possible states?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">This would also
apply to human thought processes, if the human brain uses
quantum processes and it’s thinking.</span></li>
</ul>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Behind these
questions was a thought this morning: What is the role of
definitions in mathematics and more generally in physics and
conceptual systems?</span></li>
<ul class="ul2" style="list-style-type: circle;">
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">They seem to be
more than just shorthand</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">They are creative
constructions that lead to different possibility thought
spaces.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Undefinability in
terms of one system of another</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Binary reductionism
may actually be assuming properties of possible states and
quantum mechanics.</span></li>
<ul class="ul3" style="list-style-type: square;">
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2"
style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Viewing binary
reductionism as it procedural definitional process</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2"
style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">It may lead to a
restricted view of what quantum possibilities are</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2"
style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">In this sense, it
restricts the phase space of quantum mechanics</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2"
style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Recall there are
at least two types of quantum mechanical states, the
wave state versus the possible states that the wave
state defines</span></li>
</ul>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Ontological status
of possibilities</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Probability
compress possibilities real rational integers fraction
mapping fit or not</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Quantum qbit how
real are its possible states?</span></li>
<ul class="ul3" style="list-style-type: square;">
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2"
style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">If real then in
what sense?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2"
style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Do they have
mass?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2"
style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Energy?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2"
style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Take up space?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2"
style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Extension?</span></li>
<ul class="ul3" style="list-style-type: square;">
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2"
style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">In what
dimensions?</span></li>
<ul class="ul3" style="list-style-type: square;">
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2"
style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Space time?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2"
style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Imaginary
dimensions-numbers</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2"
style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Mixture of
both</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2"
style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Do imaginary
and real interact?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2"
style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">They may or
must if quantum computing is to have an effect</span></li>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Can quantum
possible states be represented by imaginary numbers?</span></li>
<ul class="ul3" style="list-style-type: square;">
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2"
style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Complete cover?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2"
style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Consistent</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2"
style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">How do they
interact with other variables and dimensions?</span></li>
</ul>
</ul>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">What is more real
Hilbert space or space-time?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">What is more real
matter or potentiality and possibility?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">The Newton-Einstein
geometry of space needs to be replaced with a possibility
space.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">It may be that the
very possibility generate matter rather than the other way
around</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">If matter is created
by possibility spaces then gravity is definable by
possibility space structures</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Entangled states an
example of possibility spaces that interact</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">In measurement or
observation and entangled states interact with four
dimensional space time</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">The double split
experiment shows the reality of the possibility space</span></li>
<ul class="ul2" style="list-style-type: circle;">
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Individual
particles travel one of the routes in that space</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">It is ontologically
real, but the form of its existence may be different than
matter</span></li>
</ul>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Probabilities are one
way of compressing possibility spaces</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Human understanding
involves operators on pragmatic and informational
possibility spaces</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">QEB Quantum Energy
Barrier</span></li>
<ul class="ul2" style="list-style-type: circle;">
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Exponential in
number of qubits</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Precision is
directly related to energy<br>
</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Limits of quantum
computing</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Possibly affects
energy in space and time</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Possibilities have
real effects</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Space is
possibilities</span></li>
</ul>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Logical Foundations
of DAI</span></li>
<ul class="ul2" style="list-style-type: circle;">
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Faux possibility
(where a possibility is purely epistemic due to the lack
of information of the subject)<br>
</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Real possibility
abilities capabilities</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Intentions</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Entanglement</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Cooperative Society</span></li>
</ul>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Levels of ontology
and autonomy of information</span></li>
<li class="li3"
style="margin: 0px; font: 30px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s3"
style="font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><b><font size="4">Reply
to Thomas Goernitz</font></b></span></li>
<li class="li4"
style="margin: 0px; font: 18px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Assumes binary
reductionism</span></li>
<li class="li4"
style="margin: 0px; font: 18px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Assumes that
epistemological operators can discover real quantum
possibilities</span></li>
<li class="li4"
style="margin: 0px; font: 18px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Has an
epistemological focus</span></li>
<li class="li4"
style="margin: 0px; font: 18px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Epistemological
operators generate abilities, which generate possible
strategies which generate possible intentions, which
generate possible cooperative action</span></li>
<li class="li4"
style="margin: 0px; font: 18px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">All this is missing
in Goernitz theory</span></li>
<li class="li4"
style="margin: 0px; font: 18px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s2" style="-webkit-text-stroke: 0px rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">It is a reductionist
theory of consciousness, missing the unity of consciousness
and its relationship to human action</span></li>
<li class="li5" style="margin: 0px; font: 18px Times;"><br>
</li>
<li class="li8"
style="margin: 0px; text-align: center; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"></span><br>
</li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><b><font size="5">Claude
Sonnet Chat: A Chat I had this morning 19th March 2025:</font></b></span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><b><font size="5"><br>
</font></b></span></li>
<li class="li8"
style="margin: 0px; text-align: center; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><b><font size="4">Possibility
Spaces and the Geometry of Gravity</font></b></span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Eric
Werner:</li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">One can view 3D space
itself as a possibility space of all possible paths over
time taken by an agent or particle. Then Hilbert space and
3D space may relate and interact as pure possibility spaces.
This would contradict Eintein's geometric interpretation of
gravity.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></li>
<li class="li8"
style="margin: 0px; text-align: center; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"></span><br>
</li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Claude:</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">This is an intriguing
perspective on the relationship between physical space and
possibility spaces. Let me explore this idea with you.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Viewing 3D space as a
possibility space of all potential paths is reminiscent of
path integral formulations in physics, where the trajectory
of a particle emerges from summing over all possible paths.
However, there are some important distinctions to consider
between physical space and mathematical possibility spaces
like Hilbert space.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">In quantum mechanics,
Hilbert space is indeed a mathematical space of
possibilities - it contains all possible quantum states of a
system. The wave function represents probability amplitudes
in this abstract space, which then manifest as probabilities
of finding particles at specific locations in physical
space.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">The relationship
between these spaces is subtle. While 3D space contains all
possible positions an object could occupy, Hilbert space
contains all possible quantum states (which include
position, momentum, spin, and other properties). They serve
different functions in our physical theories.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Regarding Einstein's
geometric interpretation of gravity, this view would indeed
present a challenge. General relativity interprets gravity
not as a force in the traditional sense, but as the
curvature of spacetime caused by mass and energy. This
geometric interpretation has been extensively tested and
verified through numerous experiments.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">If we were to view 3D
space primarily as a possibility space rather than a
physical entity that can be curved, we would need to
reinterpret the empirical success of general relativity. The
question becomes: how would gravitational effects emerge
from this alternative framework?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">This kind of
reinterpretation might share some conceptual similarities
with quantum gravity approaches that try to understand
spacetime as emerging from more fundamental structures.
However, any viable alternative would need to reproduce the
predictions of general relativity in appropriate limits.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">What aspects of this
perspective do you find most compelling or worth exploring
further?</span></li>
<li class="li8"
style="margin: 0px; text-align: center; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"></span><br>
</li>
<li class="li8"
style="margin: 0px; text-align: center; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"></span><br>
</li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Eric
Werner:</li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">it goes to the
question of the reality of possibilities in quantum
mechanics and the dimentional interaction between Hilbert
Space possibilites the wave function and space time</span></li>
<li class="li8"
style="margin: 0px; text-align: center; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"></span><br>
</li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Claude:</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">You're touching on a
profound question in the foundations of quantum mechanics -
the ontological status of quantum possibilities and how they
relate to our physical reality.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">The wave function in
quantum mechanics exists in Hilbert space, which has vastly
more dimensions than our familiar 3D space (plus time). This
raises fascinating questions about the nature of reality:</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Are quantum
possibilities "real" in some sense before measurement? The
wave function represents all possible states simultaneously,
but we only observe one outcome.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">How does the
high-dimensional mathematical structure of Hilbert space
"collapse" or project onto our 4D spacetime during
measurement?</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">This dimensional
interaction is at the heart of quantum measurement problem.
Different interpretations of quantum mechanics handle this
differently:</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">In the Copenhagen
interpretation, the wave function is viewed as a
mathematical tool describing probabilities, not a physical
entity.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">In Many-Worlds, all
possibilities are realized in different branches of reality.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">In Bohmian mechanics,
there's a real wave function guiding real particles.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">In QBism and some
information-theoretic approaches, the wave function
represents knowledge or information rather than physical
reality.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">What makes this
particularly challenging is that these different ontological
views are empirically equivalent - they make the same
predictions. The question of how abstract possibilities in
Hilbert space interact with concrete reality in spacetime
might be fundamentally philosophical rather than empirically
decidable.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">This tension becomes
even more acute when we consider how to reconcile quantum
mechanics with general relativity, where spacetime itself is
dynamic. If possibilities are real in some sense, how do
they interact with curved spacetime? This remains one of the
deepest puzzles in theoretical physics.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Do you find any
particular approach to this dimensional interaction more
compelling?</span></li>
<li class="li8"
style="margin: 0px; text-align: center; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"></span><br>
</li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Eric
Werner:</li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">This curved space
time is a weakness of Einstein's theory. We need to replace
it with dimensional interactions of possibility spaces</span></li>
<li class="li8"
style="margin: 0px; text-align: center; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"></span><br>
</li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Claude:</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">That's an interesting
perspective. The idea of replacing curved spacetime with
interactions between possibility spaces would indeed
represent a fundamental shift in how we conceptualize
gravity and quantum mechanics.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Einstein's geometric
interpretation of gravity has been remarkably successful
empirically - it accurately predicts orbital precessions,
gravitational lensing, gravitational waves, and black holes.
However, it does face challenges at the quantum scale, which
is where your approach might offer new insights.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">In a framework based
on possibility spaces, we might conceptualize fundamental
physics differently:</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Rather than spacetime
curvature causing gravity, perhaps gravity emerges from how
quantum possibilities interact across dimensions</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">The apparent
curvature of spacetime might be a macroscopic approximation
of more fundamental interactions between possibility spaces</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">The measurement
problem in quantum mechanics might be reframed as a
dimensional interaction between Hilbert space and physical
space</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">This approach shares
some conceptual similarities with certain quantum gravity
proposals. For instance, causal set theory, loop quantum
gravity, and some string theory approaches all suggest that
spacetime emerges from more fundamental structures.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">The challenge would
be developing this into a mathematical framework that:</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Reproduces general
relativity's successful predictions in appropriate limits</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Resolves the tensions
between quantum mechanics and gravity</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Makes new, testable
predictions</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">What specific
mechanisms would you propose for how these possibility
spaces interact? And how might we test such a theory
experimentally?</span></li>
<li class="li8"
style="margin: 0px; text-align: center; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"></span><br>
</li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Eric
Werner:</li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">One approach is to
remove the speed of light limitation considering that
entangled state interact instantaneously</span></li>
<li class="li8"
style="margin: 0px; text-align: center; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"></span><br>
</li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Claude:</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">That's a
thought-provoking suggestion. Quantum entanglement does
indeed present intriguing challenges to our conventional
understanding of spacetime.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">When we observe that
entangled particles show correlated measurements regardless
of separation distance, it seems to suggest some form of
"instantaneous" connection that transcends the speed of
light limitation in relativity. This apparent tension
between quantum non-locality and relativistic causality is
precisely what makes this area so fascinating.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">If we were to develop
a framework based on interacting possibility spaces that
accommodates this instantaneous connection, we might need to
consider:</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">A deeper structure
underlying both spacetime and quantum states where
"distance" works differently than in conventional spacetime</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">A formalism where
correlation between possibilities doesn't require
propagation through physical space</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">A mechanism by which
these non-local connections in possibility space manifest as
apparently local interactions in physical space</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">This approach shares
some conceptual similarities with certain interpretations of
quantum mechanics. For example:</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">In relational quantum
mechanics, physical properties exist only relative to
specific reference systems</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Some quantum gravity
approaches suggest that spacetime itself emerges from more
fundamental quantum structures</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">The holographic
principle proposes that information in a volume of space can
be represented on its boundary</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">The challenge becomes
reconciling the apparent non-locality of quantum mechanics
with the locality of general relativity in a coherent
mathematical framework. John Bell's inequalities and
subsequent experiments have confirmed that nature does
indeed exhibit this non-local behavior, but interpretations
vary widely.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Do you have thoughts
on how we might formalize this relationship between
possibility spaces in a way that could lead to testable
predictions?</span></li>
<li class="li8"
style="margin: 0px; text-align: center; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"></span><br>
</li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Eric
Werner:</li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Adding one dimension
can reduce far distance to next to relation, e.g., 2D paper
with two points (x1, y1) and distant form (x2, y2) but next
to each other in 3D space if we fold the 2D space (like
folding a sheet of paper)</span></li>
<li class="li8"
style="margin: 0px; text-align: center; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"></span><br>
</li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Claude:</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">That's an excellent
analogy! The concept you're describing is closely related to
ideas in both theoretical physics and mathematics.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">What you're
suggesting resembles the concept of a "wormhole" or
Einstein-Rosen bridge in relativity, where distant points in
spacetime can be connected through higher-dimensional
structures. In your paper-folding example, the 3D space
allows connection between distant 2D points without
traversing the 2D surface - creating a shortcut through the
higher dimension.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Applied to quantum
entanglement, this provides an intuitive way to
conceptualize how particles might appear "connected" across
vast distances without violating relativistic principles:</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">The particles might
be distant in our observable 3+1 dimensional spacetime</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">But they could be
"adjacent" through some higher-dimensional structure</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">The apparent
non-locality would be an artifact of our limited dimensional
perspective</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">This framework has
interesting parallels in theoretical approaches:</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Kaluza-Klein theories
and string theory, which propose extra spatial dimensions
that are typically compactified or otherwise hidden from
direct observation</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">The ER=EPR conjecture
by Susskind and Maldacena, suggesting quantum entanglement
(EPR) might be equivalent to Einstein-Rosen bridges</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Holographic
principles, where information in a volume might be encoded
on a lower-dimensional boundary</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">If we were to
formalize this approach, we might need to develop:</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">A mathematical
structure describing how our conventional spacetime embeds
within higher-dimensional possibility spaces</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Rules governing how
information or causality flows between points that are
"distant" in 3D space but "adjacent" in higher dimensions</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Testable predictions
for how these dimensional shortcuts might manifest in
observable phenomena</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">This dimensional
perspective provides an elegant conceptual framework for
reconciling quantum non-locality with relativistic
principles. Instead of abandoning the speed of light
limitation entirely, we're recontextualizing it within a
richer dimensional structure.</span></li>
<li class="li8"
style="margin: 0px; text-align: center; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"></span><br>
</li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Eric
Werner:</li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">viewing the paper
example as an analogy, space-time curvature would then just
be a higher dimensional effect in possibility spaces</span></li>
<li class="li8"
style="margin: 0px; text-align: center; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"></span><br>
</li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Claude:</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">You've made a
profound observation. This reframing would indeed transform
our understanding of spacetime curvature fundamentally.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">In your framework,
what Einstein described as curvature of spacetime would
instead be interpreted as a projection or shadow effect from
higher-dimensional interactions in possibility spaces. The
apparent bending of light around massive objects,
gravitational time dilation, and other relativistic effects
wouldn't be due to actual geometric curvature of 4D
spacetime, but rather manifestations of how these
higher-dimensional possibility spaces interact.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">This perspective
shares conceptual similarities with certain approaches to
unified theories:</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">In some brane-world
scenarios in string theory, gravity propagates through
higher dimensions, while other forces remain confined to our
4D "brane"</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">The AdS/CFT
correspondence suggests that gravitational dynamics in a
higher-dimensional space can be equivalent to
non-gravitational physics on its boundary</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Certain quantum
gravity approaches propose that spacetime itself is emergent
rather than fundamental</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Your approach offers
an elegant conceptual advantage: it potentially provides a
natural framework for understanding both quantum phenomena
and gravitational effects through the same mechanism of
dimensional interactions between possibility spaces.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">The mathematical
challenge would be formulating precisely how these
possibility spaces interact to produce the effects we
interpret as gravity. What would be particularly interesting
is whether this framework could make predictions that differ
from general relativity in certain regimes, perhaps at
quantum scales or in extreme gravitational scenarios like
the interiors of black holes.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Do you envision
specific mathematical structures that might capture these
higher-dimensional possibility space interactions?</span></li>
<li class="li8"
style="margin: 0px; text-align: center; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"></span><br>
</li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Eric
Werner:<br>
</li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">what mathematical
structures do you envision that might capture these
higher-dimensional possibility space interactions?</span></li>
<li class="li8"
style="margin: 0px; text-align: center; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"></span><br>
</li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Claude:</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">For mathematical
structures that could capture higher-dimensional possibility
space interactions, several approaches come to mind:</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Fiber bundles and
connection theory - These mathematical structures could
model how points in our spacetime connect to
higher-dimensional possibility spaces. The base space would
be our conventional spacetime, while the fibers would
represent the quantum possibilities at each point. Parallel
transport along these bundles could formalize how
possibilities transform and interact across spacetime.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Category theory and
topoi - These provide frameworks for describing
relationships between mathematical structures. A topos can
be thought of as a universe of mathematical discourse with
its own internal logic. This could be particularly useful
for modeling how different possibility spaces relate to each
other and how information flows between them.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Geometric algebra -
Clifford algebras provide a unified mathematical language
for describing geometric relationships across different
dimensions. They naturally incorporate both the geometric
aspects of spacetime and the algebraic structures of quantum
mechanics.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Quantum information
geometry - The Fisher information metric and related
structures from information geometry could help formalize
how quantum states in Hilbert space relate to positions in
physical space.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Sheaf theory - This
branch of mathematics deals with how locally defined
structures can be coherently glued together. It could
provide tools for understanding how local quantum
possibilities combine to form global structures across
spacetime.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Operads and higher
categories - These structures allow for the formalization of
higher-dimensional algebraic operations, which might be
suitable for describing complex interactions between
possibility spaces.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Non-commutative
geometry - This generalizes geometric concepts to cases
where coordinates don't commute, which is precisely the
situation in quantum mechanics. It might provide a natural
language for describing how quantum possibility spaces
interact with conventional spacetime.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Twistor theory -
Originally developed by Roger Penrose, this approach
represents spacetime points as higher-dimensional structures
(twistors) and might provide insights into how possibility
spaces relate to physical space.</span></li>
<li class="li2"
style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Times; -webkit-text-stroke: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span
class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">The key challenge
would be developing these mathematical structures in ways
that reproduce both quantum mechanical and relativistic
effects in appropriate limits while offering new insights
into their unification. What aspects of these approaches do
you find most promising?<br>
</span></li>
</ul>
<br>
</ul>
<p></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">So that was my discussion with Claude
this morning. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">There is more from ChatGPT on the
implications for quantum computing and its limits if anyone is
interested.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Best,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Eric<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/16/25 4:07 PM, Daniel Boyd wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DU2P194MB172665CA5DDF504A286CDA7DF5DC2@DU2P194MB1726.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM">
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hallo
everyone<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Having
not yet found a way to prevent FIS mail ending in spam, I
usually only realise that a wonderful discussion like this
is taking place after the ship has sailed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">This
one, maybe, I caught just in time!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">On
the discussion of the reality of the immaterial (not just
the possible) you may be interested in my (as yet not widely
known) Emergent Information Theory as briefly reviewed in
this <a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://researchoutreach.org/articles/introduction-information-dimension/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TRehJbcRcQIG4q2VRhKlvpmrqOmm_jVcItVI5IlO2dj_8c6K4H8J6FsUA5q-0LkS8xAyY0o6cA-Pxr5N84NE8ITx$"
moz-do-not-send="true">
https://researchoutreach.org/articles/introduction-information-dimension/</a>
article.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">To
state my position: I am a very literal substance dualist.
This in the sense that I consider that there is ample
evidence that the function of biological and technological
information systems requires and is based on the existence
of non-material entities and processes. No need to go all
the way down to quantum level and all its complexities: this
originates at the macroscopic level of machines and living
organisms.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">A
non-material entity is something that is real and yet cannot
be detected by any imaginable physical device for the simple
reason that it is not made of matter and energy and
therefore cannot interact with matter and energy. As such
there is of course a problem with empirical proof: how can
you confirm the existence of something that cannot be
detected?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The
most obvious evidence, which has been with us for
millennia, is consciousness. Qualia cannot be detected. You
can’t crack open a skull and measure, feel, see or smell the
rose that most definitely exists in some way in association
with the brain. And yet to classify the rose as ‘unreal’ on
this basis is not just emotionally objectionable: it is also
irrational. Firstly because there is no fundamental reason
why reality should be limited to the material. More
importantly because we can observe the effects of such
conceptual entities and processes on expressed behaviour.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Consciousness,
however, is only the tip of the iceberg. Living organisms
have long used this type of non-detectable information as
the basis for adaptive responses. The information about
blood sugar levels associated with the insulin molecule is
also undetectable, but the insulin receptor in the liver
knows to respond to this information when the molecule docks
onto it. The physical molecule itself is arbitrary: it could
be replaced with any other molecule as long as the system
has evolved in such a way as to use it as a representative
of the information which determines the response.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">In
such examples involving only a single information entity
associated with a single physical state we can consider the
state as
<i>being</i> the information without getting into too much
trouble. Where this changes is in neural networks in which
large numbers of these fundamental units of information are
combined to create higher level informational entities,
structures and processes. This is where the ‘emergence’ in
the name of the theory comes in. As in physical
hierarchically organised systems, each level of organisation
has its own properties that do not exist at the underlying
level. The difference in neural networks is that these
levels of organisation are not based on physical
interactions between physical components, but informational
interactions between the informational entities associated
with the physical substrate. At some high level within this
stratified, non-physical reality we find phenomenal
consciousness. It is then obvious why qualia are
undetectable: they are built from non-physical components.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Biology
is messy. Furthermore, the only emergent information
phenomena we can observe, even in our own brains, are those
accessible to consciousness. The rest, literally and
absolutely, is in the dark. So where’s the evidence of the
entire family of non-physical phenomena proposed by this
theory?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Actually,
it’s hiding in plain sight: in the machines we have built to
help us with informational tasks: computers. The binary
value associated with a bit state is just as undetectable as
the information associated with the insulin molecule, a
neuronal state or indeed conscious qualia. Given only the
physical state, without knowing how the computer has been
designed to associate it with binary values and the cause of
the current state of the bit, there is no way to know
whether it is associated with a 0 or a 1. Yet it is these
binary values that we combine and recombine to create the
required functions. Here too we see multiple levels of
organisation, each with its own emergent properties that do
not exist at the underlying level, each created through
informational interaction and combination. Bits combine to
bytes, bytes to machine-level operations, operations to
instructions a the level of a programming language,
instructions into code lines, code lines into subroutines,
subroutines into modules and modules into programs. None of
this structure is physically detectable. We only know that
they exist because we have designed other parts of the
computer to translate this content into a form that can be
projected onto a screen in a visual form. And yet it would
be patently absurd to classify as ‘unreal’ since it is the
very reason we build computers. So while we may see a
computer as a physical device, it is actually only an
interface to the information dimension in which it actually
does its work. <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Artificial
neural networks form an explanatory bridge to biological
nervous systems. While far simpler, they also develop
functionality by tuning connectivity networks to combine
elementary information entities associated with node states
into higher level emergent functions. The difference by
nature between these functions from anything that can be
performed by individual connections is comparable to that
between bits and programs in programmed computers, allowing
us to conclude that they too are most likely the product of
several layers of informational organisation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Importantly,
this approach provides a escape from physical determinism in
thought, decision making and free will. All we need to do is
add top-down causation of the type that is also seen in
strongly emergent physical systems where the whole
determines the behaviour of the parts. In the case of the
brain this ‘whole’ consists of high level informational
processes that operate on the basis of informational, not
physical laws. The simple informational entities at the
bottom level of this stack are therefore required to behave
in ways that support these high level informational
processes. Just as muscle cells in the heart behave in
coordination to create its pumping function, the low level
informational entities of the brain (and consequently the
neural states they are associated with) are required to
behave in such ways that they support the high level mental
functions of the brain. It is in this way that the mind
controls the actions of the body.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">In
conclusion, programmed computers work on the basis of
designed emergent information; brains and artificial neural
networks work on the basis of self-organising stratified
layers of emergent information. Both function by combining
large numbers of simple informational entities which are in
themselves not functionally useful into higher level
emergent phenomena with the required functions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I’d
be interested what you all think about (this brief
description of) Emergent Information Theory. All questions
and comments welcome (I’ll keep an eye on my spam!) <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Best
wishes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Daniel<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US"
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
lang="EN-US"
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Fis
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> woensdag 12 maart 2025 16:13<br>
<b>To:</b> Eric Werner <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>;
Peter Erdi <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu"><Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu></a>; Gordana Dodig
Crnkovic <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se"><gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se></a>;
Katherine Peil <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com"><ktpeil@outlook.com></a>; Howard Bloom
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com"><howlbloom@aol.com></a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion? -The
Irreality of materialism<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.0pt">Dear All,</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.0pt">I find
this a most interesting thread in that in touches upon the
complex nature of information. I have one suggestion,
however: I would rewrite the items listed below in terms
of probabilities rather than possibilities. </span> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.0pt">Possibilities
are for me real only in the sense that humans can conceive
of them. Probabilities have something to do - not
necessary easy to define - with what actually happens or
could happen - potentialities that could be actualized.</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.0pt">Possibilities
thus do not exceed material reality since they do not
participate in it. Probabilities do, but their number need
not be "infinite" but transfinite in the sense of totally
inacessible.</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.0pt">Thank you.
Joseph</span> <o:p>
</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Le 12.03.2025 11:57 CET, Eric Werner
<<a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">eric.werner@oarf.org</a>>
a écrit :
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">me real <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p>Dear Materialists,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<h1>Reality of possibilities far exceeds material reality<o:p></o:p></h1>
</div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
There are more possibilities in most situations than
there is space in the universe to contain them,<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
Possibilities are real.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
Therefore, not all reality is physical or in physical
space time.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
In quantum mechanics there are more possibilities than
space in the universe to contain them.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
Therefore, there must be one or more extra dimensions to
contain them.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
The consciousness and cloning problem shows the
consciousness must be in another dimension beyond our
four dimensional space time<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
The soul if it exists may be partly in our four
dimensional space-time and partly in other dimensions of
reality.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
Materialism is just one aspect of reality.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
Reality is not just material it also contains the
immaterial which by far exceeds the material.<o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
</div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">At least those are my thoughts this
morning on a rainy day. <o:p>
</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-Eric <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 3/11/25 8:35 PM, Peter Erdi wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">I am
supporting Gordana's arguments and suggest this
well-cited paper
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/psu-psychology.github.io/psy-511-scan-fdns-2018/lectures/pdf/The_neural_bases_of_emotion_re.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!X8l0cGXYnCDoWwpQdAKdeXofWqb9cy_mWyKiqDJK2ExjYcnj70EhtVRKY6IcHZLG6A96uAXbqawoFIm68LZD_HH9$"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://psu-psychology.github.io/psy-511-scan-fdns-2018/lectures/pdf/The_neural_bases_of_emotion_re.pdf</a><span
style="color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">All the
best, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Peter <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center"
style="text-align:center">
<hr size="2" width="98%" align="center">
</div>
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> Fis
</span><a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></span></a><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> on
behalf of Gordana Dodig Crnkovic
</span><a
href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se></span></a><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Sent:</span></strong> Tuesday,
March 11, 2025 1:41 PM<br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">To:</span></strong> Eric
Werner
</span><a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><eric.werner@oarf.org></span></a><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">;
Katherine Peil
</span><a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><ktpeil@outlook.com></span></a><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">; Howard
Bloom
</span><a href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><howlbloom@aol.com></span></a><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">;
</span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">
</span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><fis@listas.unizar.es></span></a><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Subject:</span></strong> Re:
[Fis] Emotional Contagion?</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0cm">
<span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Dear
Eric, Kate, Howard, and All,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Being
a physicist, and reading recent discussions, I would
like to argue that there is no such thing as immaterial
emotions.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">At the
core, emotions are material phenomena.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Likewise,
<em>
<span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">relations</span></em> are
fundamentally material. There is no information without
physical implementation, as Landauer famously argued.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Below
are my five arguments on embodyment of emotional
contagion.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><strong><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">1.
Emotional Contagion is a Biological Process</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Emotional
contagion occurs through bodily interactions—facial
expressions, gestures, tone of voice, posture, and even
subtle physiological signals (heart rate, breathing
patterns). When one person smiles, it activates mirror
neurons in the observer’s brain, prompting similar
facial muscles to contract, causing measurable physical
changes and subsequent shifts in emotional state.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><strong><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">2.
Emotional Contagion is Chemically Mediated</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Emotional
states are directly connected to biochemical substances
like oxytocin, cortisol, dopamine, and serotonin. When
emotional contagion happens, it does so through these
material biochemical mediators.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><strong><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">3.
Emotional Contagion Based on Embodiment of Emotion</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Emotions
are not "floating" entities—they are communicated via
bodily presence. The presence of a physical body
expressing emotion is essential for contagion. Without
physical embodiment (special facial expressions, sound,
rhythm, smell, touch, posture, movements), emotional
contagion does not occur. Emotions transmitted through
screens (video calls) are weaker compared to
face-to-face interactions precisely because physical
embodiment.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><strong><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">4.
Manipulability of Emotional Contagion</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Emotional
contagion can be modified or dampened pharmacologically
(e.g., through anxiety-reducing drugs). If emotions were
immaterial, medications wouldn't alter emotional
responses. Beta-blockers reduce physical symptoms of
anxiety (heartbeat, shaking), weakening emotional
contagion (e.g., stage fright contagion).
Antidepressants directly alter emotional contagion by
stabilizing neurotransmitters.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><strong><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">5.
Neuroscientific Evidence of Embodied Resonance</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Neuroimaging
clearly demonstrates activation of specific physical
brain areas (mirror neuron systems, limbic system,
amygdala) during emotional reactions. This direct neural
activity is material. Seeing someone in pain activates
similar pain circuits in the observer's brain—physically
embodying the emotion in neural tissue.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><strong><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif"> </span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><strong><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">How
this counters the immaterial perspective?</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Those
who argue emotions are "immaterial" claim emotions are
disconnected from the body. However, emotional
contagion’s dependence on observable, biological,
chemical, and neurological mechanisms refute this
clearly. If emotions were immaterial, contagion wouldn’t
require physical presence with related physiological
processes involving chemical, or neuronal pathways.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">All
the best,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Gordana</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">PS</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">My
arguments are the result of a long discussion with
GPT-4.5, which produced 20 pages of text. These were the
prompts I used:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0cm" start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo6"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Can
you please explain emotional contagion to me?</span><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo6"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Do
you see a connection to the resonance phenomena in
physics?*</span><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo6"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">What
are the main differences between physical resonance
and emotional contagion?<br>
(At this point, GPT-4.5 began to explain the view that
emotions, like consciousness, are subjective and
therefore immaterial, while physical resonance is a
material phenomenon. I argued that it confused
"subjective" with "immaterial." Subjective experience
is necessarily embodied and thus has a material
substrate. GPT-4.5 accepted my arguments.)</span><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo6"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Can
you summarize this discussion?</span><o:p></o:p></li>
</ol>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Finally,
I edited the summary, shortening it.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">I
wrote this mail and asked GPT-4.5 to check my English.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">What
was my contribution?<br>
A physicist's view on emotional contagion.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">*
Resonance occurs when an external force or
<em><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">driving
frequency matches the natural frequency of a system</span></em>,
causing the system to oscillate with greatly increased
amplitude.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p style="margin:0cm"><strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Fis </span>
<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></span></a><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> on
behalf of Eric Werner
</span><a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><eric.werner@oarf.org></span></a><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Organisation:
</span></strong>OARF.org<br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Date:
</span></strong>Tuesday, 11 March 2025 at 16:24<br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">To:
</span></strong>Howard Bloom
</span><a href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><howlbloom@aol.com></span></a><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">,
</span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">"fis@listas.unizar.es"</span></a><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">
</span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><fis@listas.unizar.es></span></a><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">,
Katherine Peil
</span><a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><ktpeil@outlook.com></span></a><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Subject:
</span></strong>Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0cm"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Dear Kate, Howard and All,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I have had highs in concerts and deep experiences with
the Aborigines in the heart of Australia. These
experiences seem to have little to do with each other. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The insight given to me by my experience in Australia
evoked the thought "They are crazy over there". Where
"over there" was European and American industrialized
societies, their wrong path and lack of genuine meaning. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The insight given to me while blowing up balloons
backstage at a Rolling Stones concert was, well, seeing
Mick Jagger from the back while he elicited the highs in
his frontal audience. (My girlfriend and I didn't have
tickets and tried to get in and lucked out being asked if
we wanted to help backstage.) So I, the Ph.D.
-logician-philosopher-computer AI scientist-developmental
biologist-cancer theorist-(back at you Howard<span
style="font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif">😉</span>),
worked for a time for Mick Jagger! <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>What is the point?: I learned more from my interaction
with a 50,000 year old mind in Australia than from all the
science and even Mick Jagger! It was emotion but it was
more. Certainly not material.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>As for the Beethoven sequence (of creating, encoding,
interpreting and executing the encoding, hearing the
execution, encoding and experiencing}, has interesting
relations to embryonic development. Such transformations
are at the heart of development and communication.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>-Eric<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm">On 3/11/25 5:48 AM, Howard Bloom
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">kate,
your question about emotional contagion and what we
can call "the cloud effect" is a good one.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">about
this statement, with which i deeply agree:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">science
is remiss if it fails to interrogate the nature and
power of “faith”, given our embodied capacities
for anomalous or “spiritual" experiences</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">i'm
an atheist. when science first grabbed hold of my
soul when i was ten years old, its aspiration to me
seemed to be omniscience.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">spiritual
experiences are real. they may not be manifestations
of god, especially to folks like me to whom there is
no god. so what the hell are they? where do they
come from? how did they evolve? what do they mean?
what do they tell us about the nature of the cosmos
that has birthed them?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">in
my fieldwork in mass behavior, working with people
like michael jackson and prince for 20 years, i saw
collective ecstasies, what emil durkheim called
"collective effervescence," ecstatic experiences at
work in audiences all over north america.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">in
fact, one of the jobs of my entertainers was to
reliably evoke these transcendent experiences. and in
building the careers of people like Prince, it was my
job to help deliver these ecstasies. they are real.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">if
science can't address the question of these
experiences, it abandons the aspiration to
omniscience. and it's not science.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">with
warmth and oomph--howard</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div id="x_ydp697915adyahoo_quoted_2219450409">
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#26282A">On
Monday, March 10, 2025 at 07:49:34 PM EDT, Katherine
Peil
</span><a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif"><ktpeil@outlook.com></span></a><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#26282A"> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:6.0pt">
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#26282A"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#26282A"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div id="x_ydp697915adyiv8145316312">
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#26282A">Hello
All,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#26282A">The
discussion about
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#26282A">“</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#26282A">nothing"
or “something" being exchanged between speakers
and listeners prompts this
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#26282A">question:
What about the phenomenon of "emotional
contagion”? Do Mike Levin’s
revelation about bioelectricity bear upon the
concept of “subtle energy”?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#26282A">Also,
science is remiss if it fails to
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#26282A">interrogate</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#26282A"> the
nature and power of “faith”, given our embodied
capacities for anomalous or
“spiritual" experiences. Pre-emptive pejoratives
are not good science, but they abound.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span lang="ES"
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#26282A">Kate
Kauffman</span><span lang="ES"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span lang="ES"
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#26282A">_______________________________________________<br>
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<o:p> </o:p></p>
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</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES"
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">INFORMACIÓN
SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES"
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<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES"
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Ud. recibe
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<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">----------
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0cm">
--<br>
<em><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Dr.
Eric Werner, FLS</span></em><i><br>
<em><span
style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Oxford
Advanced Research Foundation</span></em><br>
</i><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QQBg5ryajaFu_Ptr3S6YxNCU_E-oidIbq4uhG4e5rAsW4uD3RDIxCECAaYK01LoFG0BFWab52U1eaiQTN6meFGA$"
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
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</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">-- <br>
<em><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Dr.
Eric Werner, FLS </span></em><i><br>
<em><span
style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Oxford
Advanced Research Foundation
</span></em><br>
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
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<i>
Dr. Eric Werner, FLS <br>
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RhPK_Etf56EzmEIb3-Jy8Qz1DuqWIh8h_IMwTfEEORdOqABZNlgFeywI4HGgLNfg-7k1ytOmb57ZMxMH949I140$">https://oarf.org</a> <br>
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