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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hallo everyone<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Having not yet found a way to prevent FIS mail ending in spam, I usually only realise that a wonderful discussion like this is taking place after
the ship has sailed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">This one, maybe, I caught just in time!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">On the discussion of the reality of the immaterial (not just the possible) you may be interested in my (as yet not widely known) Emergent Information
Theory as briefly reviewed in this <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://researchoutreach.org/articles/introduction-information-dimension/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TRehJbcRcQIG4q2VRhKlvpmrqOmm_jVcItVI5IlO2dj_8c6K4H8J6FsUA5q-0LkS8xAyY0o6cA-Pxr5N84NE8ITx$">
https://researchoutreach.org/articles/introduction-information-dimension/</a> article.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">To state my position: I am a very literal substance dualist. This in the sense that I consider that there is ample evidence that the function of biological
and technological information systems requires and is based on the existence of non-material entities and processes. No need to go all the way down to quantum level and all its complexities: this originates at the macroscopic level of machines and living organisms.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">A non-material entity is something that is real and yet cannot be detected by any imaginable physical device for the simple reason that it is not
made of matter and energy and therefore cannot interact with matter and energy. As such there is of course a problem with empirical proof: how can you confirm the existence of something that cannot be detected?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The most obvious evidence, which has been with us for millennia, is consciousness. Qualia cannot be detected. You can’t crack open a skull and measure,
feel, see or smell the rose that most definitely exists in some way in association with the brain. And yet to classify the rose as ‘unreal’ on this basis is not just emotionally objectionable: it is also irrational. Firstly because there is no fundamental
reason why reality should be limited to the material. More importantly because we can observe the effects of such conceptual entities and processes on expressed behaviour.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Consciousness, however, is only the tip of the iceberg. Living organisms have long used this type of non-detectable information as the basis for adaptive
responses. The information about blood sugar levels associated with the insulin molecule is also undetectable, but the insulin receptor in the liver knows to respond to this information when the molecule docks onto it. The physical molecule itself is arbitrary:
it could be replaced with any other molecule as long as the system has evolved in such a way as to use it as a representative of the information which determines the response.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">In such examples involving only a single information entity associated with a single physical state we can consider the state as
<i>being</i> the information without getting into too much trouble. Where this changes is in neural networks in which large numbers of these fundamental units of information are combined to create higher level informational entities, structures and processes.
This is where the ‘emergence’ in the name of the theory comes in. As in physical hierarchically organised systems, each level of organisation has its own properties that do not exist at the underlying level. The difference in neural networks is that these
levels of organisation are not based on physical interactions between physical components, but informational interactions between the informational entities associated with the physical substrate. At some high level within this stratified, non-physical reality
we find phenomenal consciousness. It is then obvious why qualia are undetectable: they are built from non-physical components.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Biology is messy. Furthermore, the only emergent information phenomena we can observe, even in our own brains, are those accessible to consciousness.
The rest, literally and absolutely, is in the dark. So where’s the evidence of the entire family of non-physical phenomena proposed by this theory?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Actually, it’s hiding in plain sight: in the machines we have built to help us with informational tasks: computers. The binary value associated with
a bit state is just as undetectable as the information associated with the insulin molecule, a neuronal state or indeed conscious qualia. Given only the physical state, without knowing how the computer has been designed to associate it with binary values and
the cause of the current state of the bit, there is no way to know whether it is associated with a 0 or a 1. Yet it is these binary values that we combine and recombine to create the required functions. Here too we see multiple levels of organisation, each
with its own emergent properties that do not exist at the underlying level, each created through informational interaction and combination. Bits combine to bytes, bytes to machine-level operations, operations to instructions a the level of a programming language,
instructions into code lines, code lines into subroutines, subroutines into modules and modules into programs. None of this structure is physically detectable. We only know that they exist because we have designed other parts of the computer to translate this
content into a form that can be projected onto a screen in a visual form. And yet it would be patently absurd to classify as ‘unreal’ since it is the very reason we build computers. So while we may see a computer as a physical device, it is actually only an
interface to the information dimension in which it actually does its work. <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Artificial neural networks form an explanatory bridge to biological nervous systems. While far simpler, they also develop functionality by tuning
connectivity networks to combine elementary information entities associated with node states into higher level emergent functions. The difference by nature between these functions from anything that can be performed by individual connections is comparable
to that between bits and programs in programmed computers, allowing us to conclude that they too are most likely the product of several layers of informational organisation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Importantly, this approach provides a escape from physical determinism in thought, decision making and free will. All we need to do is add top-down
causation of the type that is also seen in strongly emergent physical systems where the whole determines the behaviour of the parts. In the case of the brain this ‘whole’ consists of high level informational processes that operate on the basis of informational,
not physical laws. The simple informational entities at the bottom level of this stack are therefore required to behave in ways that support these high level informational processes. Just as muscle cells in the heart behave in coordination to create its pumping
function, the low level informational entities of the brain (and consequently the neural states they are associated with) are required to behave in such ways that they support the high level mental functions of the brain. It is in this way that the mind controls
the actions of the body.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">In conclusion, programmed computers work on the basis of designed emergent information; brains and artificial neural networks work on the basis of
self-organising stratified layers of emergent information. Both function by combining large numbers of simple informational entities which are in themselves not functionally useful into higher level emergent phenomena with the required functions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I’d be interested what you all think about (this brief description of) Emergent Information Theory. All questions and comments welcome (I’ll keep
an eye on my spam!) <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Best wishes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Daniel<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Fis <fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>joe.brenner@bluewin.ch<br>
<b>Sent:</b> woensdag 12 maart 2025 16:13<br>
<b>To:</b> Eric Werner <eric.werner@oarf.org>; Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu>; Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se>; Katherine Peil <ktpeil@outlook.com>; Howard Bloom <howlbloom@aol.com>; fis@listas.unizar.es<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion? -The Irreality of materialism<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.0pt">Dear All,</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.0pt">I find this a most interesting thread in that in touches upon the complex nature of information. I have one suggestion, however: I would rewrite the items listed below in terms of probabilities rather than
possibilities. </span> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.0pt">Possibilities are for me real only in the sense that humans can conceive of them. Probabilities have something to do - not necessary easy to define - with what actually happens or could happen - potentialities
that could be actualized.</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.0pt">Possibilities thus do not exceed material reality since they do not participate in it. Probabilities do, but their number need not be "infinite" but transfinite in the sense of totally inacessible.</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.0pt">Thank you. Joseph</span> <o:p>
</o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Le 12.03.2025 11:57 CET, Eric Werner <<a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org">eric.werner@oarf.org</a>> a écrit :
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">me real <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p>Dear Materialists,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<h1>Reality of possibilities far exceeds material reality<o:p></o:p></h1>
</div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
There are more possibilities in most situations than there is space in the universe to contain them,<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
Possibilities are real.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
Therefore, not all reality is physical or in physical space time.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
In quantum mechanics there are more possibilities than space in the universe to contain them.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
Therefore, there must be one or more extra dimensions to contain them.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
The consciousness and cloning problem shows the consciousness must be in another dimension beyond our four dimensional space time<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
The soul if it exists may be partly in our four dimensional space-time and partly in other dimensions of reality.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
Materialism is just one aspect of reality.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
Reality is not just material it also contains the immaterial which by far exceeds the material.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
</div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">At least those are my thoughts this morning on a rainy day. <o:p>
</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-Eric <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 3/11/25 8:35 PM, Peter Erdi wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">I am supporting Gordana's arguments and suggest this well-cited paper
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/psu-psychology.github.io/psy-511-scan-fdns-2018/lectures/pdf/The_neural_bases_of_emotion_re.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!X8l0cGXYnCDoWwpQdAKdeXofWqb9cy_mWyKiqDJK2ExjYcnj70EhtVRKY6IcHZLG6A96uAXbqawoFIm68LZD_HH9$">https://psu-psychology.github.io/psy-511-scan-fdns-2018/lectures/pdf/The_neural_bases_of_emotion_re.pdf</a><span style="color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">All the best, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Peter <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center">
<hr size="2" width="98%" align="center">
</div>
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> Fis
</span><a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></span></a><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> on behalf of Gordana Dodig Crnkovic
</span><a href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se></span></a><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
<strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Sent:</span></strong> Tuesday, March 11, 2025 1:41 PM<br>
<strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">To:</span></strong> Eric Werner
</span><a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><eric.werner@oarf.org></span></a><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">; Katherine Peil
</span><a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><ktpeil@outlook.com></span></a><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">; Howard Bloom
</span><a href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><howlbloom@aol.com></span></a><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">;
</span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">
</span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><fis@listas.unizar.es></span></a><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
<strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Subject:</span></strong> Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion?</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0cm">
<span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Dear Eric, Kate, Howard, and All,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Being a physicist, and reading recent discussions, I would like to argue that there is no such thing as immaterial emotions.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">At the core, emotions are material phenomena.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Likewise, <em>
<span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">relations</span></em> are fundamentally material. There is no information without physical implementation, as Landauer famously argued.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Below are my five arguments on embodyment of emotional contagion.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><strong><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">1. Emotional Contagion is a Biological Process</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Emotional contagion occurs through bodily interactions—facial expressions, gestures, tone of voice, posture, and even subtle physiological signals (heart rate, breathing patterns). When one
person smiles, it activates mirror neurons in the observer’s brain, prompting similar facial muscles to contract, causing measurable physical changes and subsequent shifts in emotional state.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><strong><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">2. Emotional Contagion is Chemically Mediated</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Emotional states are directly connected to biochemical substances like oxytocin, cortisol, dopamine, and serotonin. When emotional contagion happens, it does so through these material biochemical
mediators.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><strong><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">3. Emotional Contagion Based on Embodiment of Emotion</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Emotions are not "floating" entities—they are communicated via bodily presence. The presence of a physical body expressing emotion is essential for contagion. Without physical embodiment (special
facial expressions, sound, rhythm, smell, touch, posture, movements), emotional contagion does not occur. Emotions transmitted through screens (video calls) are weaker compared to face-to-face interactions precisely because physical embodiment.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><strong><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">4. Manipulability of Emotional Contagion</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Emotional contagion can be modified or dampened pharmacologically (e.g., through anxiety-reducing drugs). If emotions were immaterial, medications wouldn't alter emotional responses. Beta-blockers
reduce physical symptoms of anxiety (heartbeat, shaking), weakening emotional contagion (e.g., stage fright contagion). Antidepressants directly alter emotional contagion by stabilizing neurotransmitters.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><strong><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">5. Neuroscientific Evidence of Embodied Resonance</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Neuroimaging clearly demonstrates activation of specific physical brain areas (mirror neuron systems, limbic system, amygdala) during emotional reactions. This direct neural activity is material.
Seeing someone in pain activates similar pain circuits in the observer's brain—physically embodying the emotion in neural tissue.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><strong><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif"> </span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><strong><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">How this counters the immaterial perspective?</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Those who argue emotions are "immaterial" claim emotions are disconnected from the body. However, emotional contagion’s dependence on observable, biological, chemical, and neurological mechanisms
refute this clearly. If emotions were immaterial, contagion wouldn’t require physical presence with related physiological processes involving chemical, or neuronal pathways.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">All the best,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Gordana</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">PS</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">My arguments are the result of a long discussion with GPT-4.5, which produced 20 pages of text. These were the prompts I used:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0cm" start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo6"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Can you please explain emotional contagion to me?</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo6"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Do you see a connection to the resonance phenomena in physics?*</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo6"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">What are the main differences between physical resonance and emotional contagion?<br>
(At this point, GPT-4.5 began to explain the view that emotions, like consciousness, are subjective and therefore immaterial, while physical resonance is a material phenomenon. I argued that it confused "subjective" with "immaterial." Subjective experience
is necessarily embodied and thus has a material substrate. GPT-4.5 accepted my arguments.)</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo6"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Can you summarize this discussion?</span><o:p></o:p></li></ol>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Finally, I edited the summary, shortening it.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">I wrote this mail and asked GPT-4.5 to check my English.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">What was my contribution?<br>
A physicist's view on emotional contagion.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">* Resonance occurs when an external force or
<em><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">driving frequency matches the natural frequency of a system</span></em>, causing the system to oscillate with greatly increased amplitude.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p style="margin:0cm"><strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Fis </span>
<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></span></a><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> on behalf of Eric Werner
</span><a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><eric.werner@oarf.org></span></a><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
<strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Organisation: </span></strong>OARF.org<br>
<strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Date: </span></strong>Tuesday, 11 March 2025 at 16:24<br>
<strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">To: </span></strong>Howard Bloom
</span><a href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><howlbloom@aol.com></span></a><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">,
</span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">"fis@listas.unizar.es"</span></a><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">
</span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><fis@listas.unizar.es></span></a><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">, Katherine Peil
</span><a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><ktpeil@outlook.com></span></a><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
<strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Subject: </span></strong>Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0cm"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Dear Kate, Howard and All,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I have had highs in concerts and deep experiences with the Aborigines in the heart of Australia. These experiences seem to have little to do with each other. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The insight given to me by my experience in Australia evoked the thought "They are crazy over there". Where "over there" was European and American industrialized societies, their wrong path and lack of genuine meaning. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The insight given to me while blowing up balloons backstage at a Rolling Stones concert was, well, seeing Mick Jagger from the back while he elicited the highs in his frontal audience. (My girlfriend and I didn't have tickets and tried to get in and lucked
out being asked if we wanted to help backstage.) So I, the Ph.D. -logician-philosopher-computer AI scientist-developmental biologist-cancer theorist-(back at you Howard<span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif">😉</span>), worked for a time for Mick
Jagger! <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>What is the point?: I learned more from my interaction with a 50,000 year old mind in Australia than from all the science and even Mick Jagger! It was emotion but it was more. Certainly not material.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>As for the Beethoven sequence (of creating, encoding, interpreting and executing the encoding, hearing the execution, encoding and experiencing}, has interesting relations to embryonic development. Such transformations are at the heart of development and
communication.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>-Eric<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm">On 3/11/25 5:48 AM, Howard Bloom wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">kate, your question about emotional contagion and what we can call "the cloud effect" is a good one.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">about this statement, with which i deeply agree:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">science is remiss if it fails to interrogate the nature and power of “faith”, given our embodied capacities for anomalous or “spiritual" experiences</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">i'm an atheist. when science first grabbed hold of my soul when i was ten years old, its aspiration to me seemed to be omniscience.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">spiritual experiences are real. they may not be manifestations of god, especially to folks like me to whom there is no god. so what the hell are they? where do they come
from? how did they evolve? what do they mean? what do they tell us about the nature of the cosmos that has birthed them?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">in my fieldwork in mass behavior, working with people like michael jackson and prince for 20 years, i saw collective ecstasies, what emil durkheim called "collective effervescence,"
ecstatic experiences at work in audiences all over north america.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">in fact, one of the jobs of my entertainers was to reliably evoke these transcendent experiences. and in building the careers of people like Prince, it was my job to help
deliver these ecstasies. they are real.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">if science can't address the question of these experiences, it abandons the aspiration to omniscience. and it's not science.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">with warmth and oomph--howard</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div id="x_ydp697915adyahoo_quoted_2219450409">
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#26282A">On Monday, March 10, 2025 at 07:49:34 PM EDT, Katherine Peil
</span><a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif"><ktpeil@outlook.com></span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#26282A"> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:6.0pt">
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#26282A"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#26282A"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div id="x_ydp697915adyiv8145316312">
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#26282A">Hello All,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#26282A">The discussion about
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#26282A">“</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#26282A">nothing" or “something" being exchanged between speakers and listeners prompts this
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#26282A">question: What about the phenomenon of "emotional contagion”? Do Mike Levin’s revelation about bioelectricity bear upon the concept of “subtle energy”?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#26282A">Also, science is remiss if it fails to
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#26282A">interrogate</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#26282A"> the nature and power of “faith”, given our embodied capacities for anomalous or “spiritual" experiences.
Pre-emptive pejoratives are not good science, but they abound.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span lang="ES" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#26282A">Kate Kauffman</span><span lang="ES"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#26282A">_______________________________________________<br>
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</span><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif">Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#26282A"><br>
</span><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></a><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#26282A"><br>
----------<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:
</span><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</span></a><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#26282A"><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
</span><a href="http://listas.unizar.es"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif">http://listas.unizar.es</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#26282A"><br>
----------</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0cm">
<o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">_______________________________________________
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Fis mailing list
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:blue">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:blue">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">----------
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:
</span><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<span lang="ES"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://listas.unizar.es"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">http://listas.unizar.es</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:blue">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">----------
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0cm">
--<br>
<em><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Dr. Eric Werner, FLS</span></em><i><br>
<em><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Oxford Advanced Research Foundation</span></em><br>
</i><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QQBg5ryajaFu_Ptr3S6YxNCU_E-oidIbq4uhG4e5rAsW4uD3RDIxCECAaYK01LoFG0BFWab52U1eaiQTN6meFGA$"><i>https://oarf.org</i></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Fis mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang="ES">----------<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="ES">INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="ES"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="ES">Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="ES">Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: </span><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"><span lang="ES">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</span></a><span lang="ES"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="ES">Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><a href="http://listas.unizar.es">http://listas.unizar.es</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>----------<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">-- <br>
<em><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Dr. Eric Werner, FLS </span></em><i><br>
<em><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
</span></em><br>
</i><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SpZVVwbbI_sburJFrfYKguycoEAhY98EDf4U51Soe8svXnUuvRpDRsbJIa4hAG92EBBLm2YIJVnHM-3h-4zY72s$"><i>https://oarf.org</i></a><em><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">
</span></em><i><br>
<br>
</i><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES">_______________________________________________
<br>
Fis mailing list <br>
</span><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"><span lang="ES">Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a><span lang="ES">
<br>
</span><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"><span lang="ES">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></a><span lang="ES">
<br>
---------- <br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL <br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:
</span><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"><span lang="ES">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</span></a><span lang="ES">
<br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<br>
</span><a href="http://listas.unizar.es">http://listas.unizar.es</a> <br>
---------- <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</body>
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