<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Alas you are but a figment of my imagination.<div class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Mar 14, 2025, at 9:42 AM, Jason Hu <<a href="mailto:jasonthegoodman@gmail.com" class="">jasonthegoodman@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">I second Gordana here.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">JJH said: "Possibilities are NOT real unless you ACT to REALise (one instance of) it."</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">S's Cat is NOT real unless you OPEN the box, only a dead cat or a live cat is real, NOT S's Cat. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">S's Cat is an Imagination, not Reality. Imagination=illusion=fiction=(possibility+impossibility).</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Intellectual products can be Realizable or Unrealizable. The former could be made into useful tools to benefit civilization. The latter is only self-entertainment. Nobody except fools really spent his whole life time trying to play Tower of Hanoi. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">For me (as an engineer), if there is no human hand (motor neurons) involved, it is not real. Talk is not real, walk is. For an artist, imagination is not real; a piece of her work on the wall is. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">So, all of your lectures, papers, and books are just semi-real until someone starts to DO things accordingly. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">More precisely, the publication of your book is 1/4 real; when someone buys it, 1/2 real; when this person actually reads through it, 3/4 real; when s/he ACTS according to the book, then 100% real!</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Heinz von Foerster talked about "the dream of reality." I want to change that narrative to "the creation of reality," inviting all colleagues to consider how you create (better) reality beyond your books.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Cheers, and act to get real! - Jason</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br class=""></div></div><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 14, 2025 at 3:21 AM Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <<a href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se" class="">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg2525707307446854722">
<div lang="en-SE" style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class="">
<div class="m_623496559308245313WordSection1"><p class=""><strong class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;font-weight:normal" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></strong></p><p class=""><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">Dear Lou,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">Y</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">our message
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">is </span>
<span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">showing that mathematical structures and combinatorial possibilities can vastly exceed the capacity
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">of </span>
<span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">physical universe to instantiate them. I agree. However, I see a distinction between
<strong class=""><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;font-weight:normal" class="">existence as abstraction</span></strong> and
<strong class=""><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;font-weight:normal" class="">existence as independent reality</span></strong>.</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">
<span lang="EN-US" class="">They have different implementations in the physical world.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></span></p><p class=""><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">The fact that a mathematical space (such as the Tower of Hanoi’s solution space) has more possible states than physical instantiations does not necessarily imply the need for an independent immaterial
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">world</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">. These structures exist as
<strong class=""><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;font-weight:normal" class="">conceptual entities</span></strong>, encoded in human cognition and shared through symbolic systems (languages), without requiring an external ontological status beyond their formal
definition</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">/relational nature</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class=""><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">The number <strong class=""><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;font-weight:normal" class="">two</span></strong> is not a physical entity but a
<strong class=""><i class=""><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;font-weight:normal" class="">relational concept</span></i></strong>—it does not need an independent existence to be meaningful. It is instantiated in human cognition and communicat</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">ed</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">by</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class=""> language. Even though these concepts transcend individual brains through shared cognitive and cultural structures, this does
not imply an immaterial universe but rather the power of <strong class=""><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif;font-weight:normal" class="">abstraction and representation</span></strong> within the physical world.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class=""><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">There is </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">extensive
</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">literature showing how this works in practice (see below).<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class=""><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">I appreciate </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">very much
</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">the stimulating discussion</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class=""><span style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">Best regards,</span><span lang="SV" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">Gordana<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">PS.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">W</span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">orks
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">describing
</span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">how mathematical concepts are processed in the brain.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0cm" start="1" type="1" class="">
<li class="m_623496559308245313MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">Dehaene, S.<i class=""> (</i>1997)
<i class="">The number sense.</i> New York: Oxford University Press, 1997; Cambridge (UK): Penguin press,.
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kKlqnw1G$" title="ISBN (identifier)" target="_blank" class="">
ISBN</a> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0-19-511004-8__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kF9RIgRG$" title="Special:BookSources/0-19-511004-8" target="_blank" class="">
0-19-511004-8</a>. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></li><li class="m_623496559308245313MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">Brian Butterworth (1999) The Mathematical Brain. London: Macmillan.
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kKlqnw1G$" title="ISBN (identifier)" target="_blank" class="">
ISBN</a> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-0-333-76610-1__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kCmtuJdo$" title="Special:BookSources/978-0-333-76610-1" target="_blank" class="">
978-0-333-76610-1</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></li><li class="m_623496559308245313MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm"><i class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">Ansari, Daniel (April 2008). "Effects of development and enculturation on number representation in the brain".
Nature Reviews Neuroscience. <b class="">9</b> (4): 278–291. <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doi_(identifier)__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kIWjpKfi$" title="Doi (identifier)" target="_blank" class="">
doi</a>:<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1038*2Fnrn2334__;JQ!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kHgNFFkF$" target="_blank" class="">10.1038/nrn2334</a>. <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISSN_(identifier)__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kGvkbt7l$" title="ISSN (identifier)" target="_blank" class="">
ISSN</a> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://search.worldcat.org/issn/1471-0048__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kORd_4VP$" target="_blank" class="">1471-0048</a>. <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PMID_(identifier)__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kD4ctdT3$" title="PMID (identifier)" target="_blank" class="">
PMID</a> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18334999__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kHQrw0sG$" target="_blank" class="">18334999</a>. <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S2CID_(identifier)__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kOHLCdOs$" title="S2CID (identifier)" target="_blank" class="">
S2CID</a> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://api.semanticscholar.org/CorpusID:15766398__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kHK8Gbjx$" target="_blank" class="">15766398</a>.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></i></li><li class="m_623496559308245313MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">Cantlon, Jessica F.</span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif" class=""> </span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">
The cognitive and neural roots of mathematical knowledge. </span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif" class=""> </span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">Duke University</span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif" class=""> </span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">ProQuest
Dissertations & Theses, </span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif" class=""> </span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">2007.</span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif" class=""> </span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">3318856.
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.proquest.com/docview/304863499__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kD51QDEP$" target="_blank" class="">https://www.proquest.com/docview/304863499</a>
<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></li><li class="m_623496559308245313MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm"><i class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">Leibovich, Tali; Katzin, Naama; Harel, Maayan; Henik, Avishai (2016).
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1017*2Fs0140525x16000960__;JQ!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kIetgmvj$" target="_blank" class="">"From 'sense of number' to 'sense of magnitude' – The role of continuous magnitudes in numerical cognition"</a>. Behavioral and Brain Sciences.
<b class="">40</b>: e164. <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doi_(identifier)__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kIWjpKfi$" title="Doi (identifier)" target="_blank" class="">
doi</a>:<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1017*2Fs0140525x16000960__;JQ!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kIetgmvj$" target="_blank" class="">10.1017/s0140525x16000960</a>.
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PMID_(identifier)__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kD4ctdT3$" title="PMID (identifier)" target="_blank" class="">
PMID</a> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27530053__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kKgpmaOd$" target="_blank" class="">27530053</a>.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></i></li><li class="m_623496559308245313MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">Grabner, R.H. & Ansari, D. (2010):
<i class="">Promises and pitfalls of a 'cognitive neuroscience of mathematics learning'.</i> ZDM Mathematics Education, 42, 655–660.
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s11858-010-0283-4__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kM7I2lCH$" title="doi:10.1007/s11858-010-0283-4" target="_blank" class="">
doi:10.1007/s11858-010-0283-4</a> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></li><li class="m_623496559308245313MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class="">Grabner, R.H., Reishofer, G., Koschutnig, K. & Ebner, F. (2011):
<i class="">Brain correlates of mathematical competence in processing mathematical representations.</i> In: Frontiers in Human Neuroscience, 5.
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.3389/fnhum.2011.00130__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kMn7nPxJ$" title="doi:10.3389/fnhum.2011.00130" target="_blank" class="">
doi:10.3389/fnhum.2011.00130</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></li></ol><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm" class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:
</span></b><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Louis Kauffman <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">loukau@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Date: </b>Friday, 14 March 2025 at 06:17<br class="">
<b class="">To: </b>Eric Werner <<a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" target="_blank" class="">eric.werner@oarf.org</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Cc: </b>Peter Erdi <<a href="mailto:Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu" target="_blank" class="">Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu</a>>, Gordana CHALMERS <<a href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se" target="_blank" class="">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se</a>>, Katherine Peil <<a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com" target="_blank" class="">ktpeil@outlook.com</a>>, Howard Bloom <<a href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com" target="_blank" class="">howlbloom@aol.com</a>>, "<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>" <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Subject: </b>Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion? -The Irreality of materialism<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Dear Folks,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal">A good specific example of Eric’s phenomenon of <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<div class="">
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" class="">
<div class="">
<ul type="disc" class="">
<li class="MsoNormal">
There are more possibilities in most situations than there is space in the universe to contain them,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></li><li class="MsoNormal">
Possibilities are real.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></li></ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">is the well-known “Tower of Hanoi Puzzle” <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Hanoi__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kKMEwLyA$" target="_blank" class="">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Hanoi</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">In which there are three vertical rods attached to a base, and a number of disks of different diameters with holes at their centers so they can be threaded onto the rods. The puzzle begins with the disks arranged (always smaller disk on
top of larger disk) on one of the rods. A move in the game is to take the top disk from one rod and place it on another rod with the caveat that the disk must be placed either on a larger disk or on the base of the rods. The object of the game is to move all
the disks from the first rod to the third rod, following these rules. It is a fact that with n disks, 2^{n} -1 moves are required to complete this task. Each move creates one of the possibilities of stacking the disks (smaller above larger) on the rods. It
would not be hard to make such a puzzle with 100 disks, but the number of moves and the number of states exceeds the direct materiality of our particle based universe. Nevertheless the possible ways to stack the disks on the rods are all equally real in the
space of possibilities. Unless the physical universe is vastly larger than we know it to be it is not possible to make 2^{100}-1 copies of the puzzle and thereby exhibit its full solution. And yet this solution exists (in the space of possibilities).<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Since I am a convinced mathematician I could point to infinities, but I have only here pointed to large finite structures that transcend our physical universe.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Since I am a mathematician, I do point out to you that nowhere in physical reality is the number two. There are many instances of pairs, but the number itself is a concept and is not a physical entity. Of course you will say, but concepts
occur in brains and brains are physical. Sorry, the concept of two that occurs in a brain is a instance of that concept. The concept is independent of its instances and is not restricted to any one brain. If that were not the case, then we could never understand
one another.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">And you will say, but Herr Tegmark says that mathematics and physical reality are identical.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">And I say, balderdash.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span id="cid:ii_19594e93e5b4cff311"><image001.png></span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Best,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Lou<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><br class="">
<br class="">
<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">On Mar 12, 2025, at 5:57 AM, Eric Werner <<a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" target="_blank" class="">eric.werner@oarf.org</a>> wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
<div class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">Dear Materialists,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<h1 class=""><span style="font-family:Helvetica" class="">Reality of possibilities far exceeds material reality<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></h1>
</div>
<ul type="disc" class="">
<li class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">There are more possibilities in most situations than there is space in the universe to contain them,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></li><li class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">Possibilities are real.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></li><li class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">Therefore, not all reality is physical or in physical space time.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></li><li class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">In quantum mechanics there are more possibilities than space in the universe to contain them.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></li><li class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">Therefore, there must be one or more extra dimensions to contain them.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></li><li class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">The consciousness and cloning problem shows the consciousness must be in another dimension beyond our four dimensional space time<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></li><li class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">The soul if it exists may be partly in our four dimensional space-time and partly in other dimensions of reality.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></li><li class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">Materialism is just one aspect of reality.<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></li><li class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">Reality is not just material it also contains the immaterial which by far exceeds the material.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></li></ul>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">At least those are my thoughts this morning on a rainy day.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">-Eric<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">On 3/11/25 8:35 PM, Peter Erdi wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">I am supporting Gordana's arguments and suggest this well-cited paper<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/psu-psychology.github.io/psy-511-scan-fdns-2018/lectures/pdf/The_neural_bases_of_emotion_re.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!X8l0cGXYnCDoWwpQdAKdeXofWqb9cy_mWyKiqDJK2ExjYcnj70EhtVRKY6IcHZLG6A96uAXbqawoFIm68LZD_HH9$" target="_blank" class="">https://psu-psychology.github.io/psy-511-scan-fdns-2018/lectures/pdf/The_neural_bases_of_emotion_re.pdf</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">All the best,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Peter<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">
<hr size="2" width="675" style="width:506.4pt" align="center" class="">
</span></div>
<div id="m_623496559308245313divRplyFwdMsg" class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> Fis<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class=""><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a><span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span>on
behalf of Gordana Dodig Crnkovic<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se" target="_blank" class=""><gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se></a><br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 11, 2025 1:41 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b> Eric Werner<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" target="_blank" class=""><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>; Katherine Peil<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com" target="_blank" class=""><ktpeil@outlook.com></a>; Howard
Bloom<a href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com" target="_blank" class=""><howlbloom@aol.com></a>;<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class=""><fis@listas.unizar.es></a><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion?</span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Dear Eric, Kate, Howard, and All,</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Being a physicist, and reading recent discussions, I would like to argue that there is no such thing as immaterial emotions.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">At the core, emotions are material phenomena.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Likewise,<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">relations</i> are fundamentally material. There is no information without physical implementation, as Landauer famously argued.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Below are my five arguments on embodyment of emotional contagion.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">1. Emotional Contagion is a Biological Process</span></b><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Emotional contagion occurs through bodily interactions—facial expressions, gestures, tone of voice, posture, and even subtle physiological signals (heart rate, breathing patterns).
When one person smiles, it activates mirror neurons in the observer’s brain, prompting similar facial muscles to contract, causing measurable physical changes and subsequent shifts in emotional state.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">2. Emotional Contagion is Chemically Mediated</span></b><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Emotional states are directly connected to biochemical substances like oxytocin, cortisol, dopamine, and serotonin. When emotional contagion happens, it does so through these material
biochemical mediators.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">3. Emotional Contagion Based on Embodiment of Emotion</span></b><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Emotions are not "floating" entities—they are communicated via bodily presence. The presence of a physical body expressing emotion is essential for contagion. Without physical embodiment
(special facial expressions, sound, rhythm, smell, touch, posture, movements), emotional contagion does not occur. Emotions transmitted through screens (video calls) are weaker compared to face-to-face interactions precisely because physical embodiment.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">4. Manipulability of Emotional Contagion</span></b><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Emotional contagion can be modified or dampened pharmacologically (e.g., through anxiety-reducing drugs). If emotions were immaterial, medications wouldn't alter emotional responses.
Beta-blockers reduce physical symptoms of anxiety (heartbeat, shaking), weakening emotional contagion (e.g., stage fright contagion). Antidepressants directly alter emotional contagion by stabilizing neurotransmitters.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">5. Neuroscientific Evidence of Embodied Resonance</span></b><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Neuroimaging clearly demonstrates activation of specific physical brain areas (mirror neuron systems, limbic system, amygdala) during emotional reactions. This direct neural activity
is material. Seeing someone in pain activates similar pain circuits in the observer's brain—physically embodying the emotion in neural tissue.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class=""> </span></b><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">How this counters the immaterial perspective?</span></b><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Those who argue emotions are "immaterial" claim emotions are disconnected from the body. However, emotional contagion’s dependence on observable, biological, chemical, and neurological
mechanisms refute this clearly. If emotions were immaterial, contagion wouldn’t require physical presence with related physiological processes involving chemical, or neuronal pathways.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">All the best,</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Gordana</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">PS</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">My arguments are the result of a long discussion with GPT-4.5, which produced 20 pages of text. These were the prompts I used:</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<ol style="margin-top:0cm" start="1" type="1" class="">
<li class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Can you please explain emotional contagion to me?</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></li><li class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Do you see a connection to the resonance phenomena in physics?*</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></li><li class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">What are the main differences between physical resonance and emotional contagion?<br class="">
(At this point, GPT-4.5 began to explain the view that emotions, like consciousness, are subjective and therefore immaterial, while physical resonance is a material phenomenon. I argued that it confused "subjective" with "immaterial." Subjective experience
is necessarily embodied and thus has a material substrate. GPT-4.5 accepted my arguments.)</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></li><li class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Can you summarize this discussion?</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></li></ol>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Finally, I edited the summary, shortening it.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">I wrote this mail and asked GPT-4.5 to check my English.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">What was my contribution?<br class="">
A physicist's view on emotional contagion.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">* Resonance occurs when an external force or<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">driving frequency matches the natural frequency of a system</i>, causing the system to oscillate
with greatly increased amplitude.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">From:<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Fis<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class=""><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a><span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span>on
behalf of Eric Werner<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" target="_blank" class=""><eric.werner@oarf.org></a><br class="">
<b class="">Organisation:<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span></b><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://oarf.org/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWjEzI2YDZ4IafpKtcWx2GPa1tmrc46Rm3ikRNAPkfRSGjt728gAgNUNJi6rebtGMpSQwZ9_nWY2-L8EHuTURZi_kA9Jc7Zj$" target="_blank" class="">OARF.org</a><br class="">
<b class="">Date:<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Tuesday, 11 March 2025 at 16:24<br class="">
<b class="">To:<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Howard Bloom<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com" target="_blank" class=""><howlbloom@aol.com></a>,<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">"fis@listas.unizar.es"</a><span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class=""><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>,
Katherine Peil<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com" target="_blank" class=""><ktpeil@outlook.com></a><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion?</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">Dear Kate, Howard and All,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">I have had highs in concerts and deep experiences with the Aborigines in the heart of Australia. These experiences seem to have little to do with each other. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">The insight given to me by my experience in Australia evoked the thought "They are crazy over there". Where "over there" was European and American industrialized societies, their wrong
path and lack of genuine meaning. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">The insight given to me while blowing up balloons backstage at a Rolling Stones concert was, well, seeing Mick Jagger from the back while he elicited the highs in his frontal audience.
(My girlfriend and I didn't have tickets and tried to get in and lucked out being asked if we wanted to help backstage.) So I, the Ph.D. -logician-philosopher-computer AI scientist-developmental biologist-cancer theorist-(back at you Howard</span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Apple Color Emoji"" class="">😉</span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">),
worked for a time for Mick Jagger! <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">What is the point?: I learned more from my interaction with a 50,000 year old mind in Australia than from all the science and even Mick Jagger! It was emotion but it was more. Certainly
not material.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">As for the Beethoven sequence (of creating, encoding, interpreting and executing the encoding, hearing the execution, encoding and experiencing}, has interesting relations to embryonic
development. Such transformations are at the heart of development and communication.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">-Eric<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">On 3/11/25 5:48 AM, Howard Bloom wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class="">kate, your question about emotional contagion and what we can call "the cloud effect" is a good one.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class="">about this statement, with which i deeply agree:</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1.5pt solid rgb(15,105,255);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8pt;margin-left:15pt;margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Avenir,sans-serif" class="">science is remiss if it fails to interrogate the nature and power of “faith”, given our embodied capacities for anomalous or “spiritual" experiences</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class="">i'm an atheist. when science first grabbed hold of my soul when i was ten years old, its aspiration to me seemed to be omniscience.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class="">spiritual experiences are real. they may not be manifestations of god, especially to folks like me to whom there is no god. so what the hell are they? where do they come
from? how did they evolve? what do they mean? what do they tell us about the nature of the cosmos that has birthed them?</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class="">in my fieldwork in mass behavior, working with people like michael jackson and prince for 20 years, i saw collective ecstasies, what emil durkheim called "collective effervescence,"
ecstatic experiences at work in audiences all over north america.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class="">in fact, one of the jobs of my entertainers was to reliably evoke these transcendent experiences. and in building the careers of people like Prince, it was my job to help
deliver these ecstasies. they are real.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class="">if science can't address the question of these experiences, it abandons the aspiration to omniscience. and it's not science.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class="">with warmth and oomph--howard</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<div id="m_623496559308245313x_ydp697915adyahoo_quoted_2219450409" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:rgb(38,40,42)" class="">On Monday, March 10, 2025 at 07:49:34 PM EDT, Katherine Peil<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span></span><u class=""><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:blue" class=""><a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com" target="_blank" class=""><ktpeil@outlook.com></a></span></u><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:rgb(38,40,42)" class=""> wrote:</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:6pt" class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:rgb(38,40,42)" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:rgb(38,40,42)" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<div id="m_623496559308245313x_ydp697915adyiv8145316312" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Avenir,sans-serif;color:rgb(38,40,42)" class="">Hello All,</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Avenir,sans-serif;color:rgb(38,40,42)" class="">The discussion about<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Avenir,sans-serif;color:rgb(38,40,42)" class="">“</span><span style="font-family:Avenir,sans-serif;color:rgb(38,40,42)" class="">nothing"
or “something" being exchanged between speakers and listeners prompts this<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Avenir,sans-serif;color:rgb(38,40,42)" class="">question: What about the phenomenon of "emotional contagion”?
Do Mike Levin’s revelation about bioelectricity bear upon the concept of “subtle energy”?</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Avenir,sans-serif;color:rgb(38,40,42)" class="">Also, science is remiss if it fails to<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Avenir,sans-serif;color:rgb(38,40,42)" class="">interrogate</span><span style="font-family:Avenir,sans-serif;color:rgb(38,40,42)" class=""> the
nature and power of “faith”, given our embodied capacities for anomalous or “spiritual" experiences. Pre-emptive pejoratives are not good science, but they abound.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Avenir,sans-serif;color:rgb(38,40,42)" class="">Kate Kauffman</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:rgb(38,40,42)" class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">
Fis mailing list<br class="">
</span><u class=""><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:blue" class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a></span></u><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:rgb(38,40,42)" class=""><br class="">
</span><u class=""><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:blue" class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a></span></u><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:rgb(38,40,42)" class=""><br class="">
----------<br class="">
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br class="">
<br class="">
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br class="">
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:</span><u class=""><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:blue" class=""><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a></span></u><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:rgb(38,40,42)" class=""><br class="">
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br class="">
</span><u class=""><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:blue" class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es</a></span></u><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:rgb(38,40,42)" class=""><br class="">
----------</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<pre class="">_______________________________________________<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
</div>
<div class="">
<pre class="">Fis mailing list<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
</div>
<div class="">
<pre class=""><u class=""><span style="color:blue" class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a></span></u><span style="color:blue" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></pre>
</div>
<div class="">
<pre class=""><u class=""><span style="color:blue" class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a></span></u><span style="color:blue" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></pre>
</div>
<div class="">
<pre class="">----------<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
</div>
<div class="">
<pre class="">INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
</div>
<div class="">
<pre class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
</div>
<div class="">
<pre class="">Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
</div>
<div class="">
<pre class="">Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <u class=""><span style="color:blue" class=""><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a></span></u><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
</div>
<div class="">
<pre class="">Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
</div>
<div class="">
<pre class=""><u class=""><span style="color:blue" class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es</a></span></u><span style="color:blue" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></pre>
</div>
<div class="">
<pre class="">----------<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
</div>
</blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">--<br class="">
<i class="">Dr. Eric Werner, FLS<br class="">
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation<br class="">
<u class=""><span style="color:blue" class=""><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QQBg5ryajaFu_Ptr3S6YxNCU_E-oidIbq4uhG4e5rAsW4uD3RDIxCECAaYK01LoFG0BFWab52U1eaiQTN6meFGA$" target="_blank" class="">https://oarf.org</a></span></u></i><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
<pre class="">_______________________________________________<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class="">Fis mailing list<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class="">----------<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class="">INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class="">Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class="">Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class="">Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class="">----------<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">--<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<i class="">Dr. Eric Werner, FLS<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SpZVVwbbI_sburJFrfYKguycoEAhY98EDf4U51Soe8svXnUuvRpDRsbJIa4hAG92EBBLm2YIJVnHM-3h-4zY72s$" target="_blank" class="">https://oarf.org</a><span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<br class="">
</i><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">
Fis mailing list<br class="">
</span><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class=""><br class="">
</span><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></a><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class=""><br class="">
----------<br class="">
INFORMACI�N SOBRE PROTECCI�N DE DATOS DE CAR�CTER PERSONAL<br class="">
<br class="">
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br class="">
Puede encontrar toda la informaci�n sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:<span class="m_623496559308245313apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</span></a><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class=""><br class="">
Recuerde que si est� suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicaci�n en el momento en que lo desee.<br class="">
</span><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">http://listas.unizar.es</span></a><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class=""><br class="">
----------</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br class="">
Fis mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class="">
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br class="">
----------<br class="">
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br class="">
<br class="">
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br class="">
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br class="">
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br class="">
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br class="">
----------<br class="">
</div></blockquote></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>