<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Dear Folks,</div>A good specific example of Eric’s phenomenon of <div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><ul class=""><li class="">There are more possibilities in most situations than there is space in the universe to contain them,</li><li class="">Possibilities are real.</li></ul></div></blockquote><div class="">is the well-known “Tower of Hanoi Puzzle” </div><div class=""><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Hanoi__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TVZqTJ-viirX14HM07-8ioqgsILpFP5YeWMctmgtmVWKTFLw2Zr5Q3nh8yMd8Pygo-Z7E4u0J0GsnmVc$" class="">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Hanoi</a></div><div class="">In which there are three vertical rods attached to a base, and a number of disks of different diameters with holes at their centers so they can be threaded onto the rods. The puzzle begins with the disks arranged (always smaller disk on top of larger disk) on one of the rods. A move in the game is to take the top disk from one rod and place it on another rod with the caveat that the disk must be placed either on a larger disk or on the base of the rods. The object of the game is to move all the disks from the first rod to the third rod, following these rules. It is a fact that with n disks, 2^{n} -1 moves are required to complete this task. Each move creates one of the possibilities of stacking the disks (smaller above larger) on the rods. It would not be hard to make such a puzzle with 100 disks, but the number of moves and the number of states exceeds the direct materiality of our particle based universe. Nevertheless the possible ways to stack the disks on the rods are all equally real in the space of possibilities. Unless the physical universe is vastly larger than we know it to be it is not possible to make 2^{100}-1 copies of the puzzle and thereby exhibit its full solution. And yet this solution exists (in the space of possibilities).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Since I am a convinced mathematician I could point to infinities, but I have only here pointed to large finite structures that transcend our physical universe.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Since I am a mathematician, I do point out to you that nowhere in physical reality is the number two. There are many instances of pairs, but the number itself is a concept and is not a physical entity. Of course you will say, but concepts occur in brains and brains are physical. Sorry, the concept of two that occurs in a brain is a instance of that concept. The concept is independent of its instances and is not restricted to any one brain. If that were not the case, then we could never understand one another.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">And you will say, but Herr Tegmark says that mathematics and physical reality are identical.</div><div class="">And I say, balderdash.</div><div class=""><img apple-inline="yes" id="88ED6A20-B45A-490B-B21A-4DEB7FCE01B8" width="625" height="86" src="cid:E4FCF6EB-7989-41B4-933A-35956B155A13" class=""></div><div class="">Best,</div><div class="">Lou</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Mar 12, 2025, at 5:57 AM, Eric Werner <<a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" class="">eric.werner@oarf.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta charset="UTF-8" class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">Dear Materialists,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="ltr" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><div class=""><h1 class="">Reality of possibilities far exceeds material reality<br class=""></h1></div><ul class=""><li class="">There are more possibilities in most situations than there is space in the universe to contain them,</li><li class="">Possibilities are real.<br class=""></li><li class="">Therefore, not all reality is physical or in physical space time.</li><li class="">In quantum mechanics there are more possibilities than space in the universe to contain them.</li><li class="">Therefore, there must be one or more extra dimensions to contain them.</li><li class="">The consciousness and cloning problem shows the consciousness must be in another dimension beyond our four dimensional space time</li><li class="">The soul if it exists may be partly in our four dimensional space-time and partly in other dimensions of reality.<br class=""></li><li class="">Materialism is just one aspect of reality.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></li><li class="">Reality is not just material it also contains the immaterial which by far exceeds the material.<br class=""></li></ul></div><p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""></p><div class="moz-cite-prefix" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">At least those are my thoughts this morning on a rainy day.</div><div class="moz-cite-prefix" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br class=""></div><div class="moz-cite-prefix" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">-Eric<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></div><div class="moz-cite-prefix" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br class=""></div><div class="moz-cite-prefix" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">On 3/11/25 8:35 PM, Peter Erdi wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:BY5PR12MB3985E461C445B21099538463F3D12@BY5PR12MB3985.namprd12.prod.outlook.com" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">I am supporting Gordana's arguments and suggest this well-cited paper</div><div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br class=""></div><div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://psu-psychology.github.io/psy-511-scan-fdns-2018/lectures/pdf/The_neural_bases_of_emotion_re.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!X8l0cGXYnCDoWwpQdAKdeXofWqb9cy_mWyKiqDJK2ExjYcnj70EhtVRKY6IcHZLG6A96uAXbqawoFIm68LZD_HH9$" id="LPlnk787643" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">https://psu-psychology.github.io/psy-511-scan-fdns-2018/lectures/pdf/The_neural_bases_of_emotion_re.pdf</a></div><div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br class=""></div><div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">All the best,</div><div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Peter</div><div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><br class=""></div><hr style="display: inline-block; width: 675.21875px;" class=""><div dir="ltr" id="divRplyFwdMsg" class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""><b class="">From:</b> Fis<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>on behalf of Gordana Dodig Crnkovic<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se"><gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se></a><br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 11, 2025 1:41 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b> Eric Werner<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>; Katherine Peil<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com"><ktpeil@outlook.com></a>; Howard Bloom<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com"><howlbloom@aol.com></a>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion?</span><div class=""> </div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Dear Eric, Kate, Howard, and All,<br class=""><br class=""></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Being a physicist, and reading recent discussions, I would like to argue that there is no such thing as immaterial emotions.</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">At the core, emotions are material phenomena.</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Likewise,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">relations</i> are fundamentally material. There is no information without physical implementation, as Landauer famously argued.</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Below are my five arguments on embodyment of emotional contagion.</span></div><p style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span></p><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class=""><b class="">1. Emotional Contagion is a Biological Process</b></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Emotional contagion occurs through bodily interactions—facial expressions, gestures, tone of voice, posture, and even subtle physiological signals (heart rate, breathing patterns). When one person smiles, it activates mirror neurons in the observer’s brain, prompting similar facial muscles to contract, causing measurable physical changes and subsequent shifts in emotional state.</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class=""><b class="">2. Emotional Contagion is Chemically Mediated</b></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Emotional states are directly connected to biochemical substances like oxytocin, cortisol, dopamine, and serotonin. When emotional contagion happens, it does so through these material biochemical mediators.</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class=""><b class="">3. Emotional Contagion Based on Embodiment of Emotion</b></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Emotions are not "floating" entities—they are communicated via bodily presence. The presence of a physical body expressing emotion is essential for contagion. Without physical embodiment (special facial expressions, sound, rhythm, smell, touch, posture, movements), emotional contagion does not occur. Emotions transmitted through screens (video calls) are weaker compared to face-to-face interactions precisely because physical embodiment.</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class=""><b class="">4. Manipulability of Emotional Contagion</b></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Emotional contagion can be modified or dampened pharmacologically (e.g., through anxiety-reducing drugs). If emotions were immaterial, medications wouldn't alter emotional responses. Beta-blockers reduce physical symptoms of anxiety (heartbeat, shaking), weakening emotional contagion (e.g., stage fright contagion). Antidepressants directly alter emotional contagion by stabilizing neurotransmitters.</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class=""><b class="">5. Neuroscientific Evidence of Embodied Resonance</b></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Neuroimaging clearly demonstrates activation of specific physical brain areas (mirror neuron systems, limbic system, amygdala) during emotional reactions. This direct neural activity is material. Seeing someone in pain activates similar pain circuits in the observer's brain—physically embodying the emotion in neural tissue.</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class=""><b class=""> </b></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class=""><b class="">How this counters the immaterial perspective?</b></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Those who argue emotions are "immaterial" claim emotions are disconnected from the body. However, emotional contagion’s dependence on observable, biological, chemical, and neurological mechanisms refute this clearly. If emotions were immaterial, contagion wouldn’t require physical presence with related physiological processes involving chemical, or neuronal pathways.</span></div><p style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span></p><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">All the best,</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Gordana</span></div><p style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span></p><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">PS</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">My arguments are the result of a long discussion with GPT-4.5, which produced 20 pages of text. These were the prompts I used:</span></div><ol start="1" style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0cm;" class=""><li style="font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; margin: 0cm;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Can you please explain emotional contagion to me?</span></li><li style="font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; margin: 0cm;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Do you see a connection to the resonance phenomena in physics?*</span></li><li style="font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; margin: 0cm;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">What are the main differences between physical resonance and emotional contagion?<br class="">(At this point, GPT-4.5 began to explain the view that emotions, like consciousness, are subjective and therefore immaterial, while physical resonance is a material phenomenon. I argued that it confused "subjective" with "immaterial." Subjective experience is necessarily embodied and thus has a material substrate. GPT-4.5 accepted my arguments.)</span></li><li style="font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; margin: 0cm;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Can you summarize this discussion?</span></li></ol><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Finally, I edited the summary, shortening it.</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">I wrote this mail and asked GPT-4.5 to check my English.</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">What was my contribution?<br class="">A physicist's view on emotional contagion.</span></div><p style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span></p><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">* Resonance occurs when an external force or<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">driving frequency matches the natural frequency of a system</i>, causing the system to oscillate with greatly increased amplitude.</span></div><p style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span></p><div style="padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223);" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Fis<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>on behalf of Eric Werner<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a><br class=""><b class="">Organisation:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://oarf.org/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TVZqTJ-viirX14HM07-8ioqgsILpFP5YeWMctmgtmVWKTFLw2Zr5Q3nh8yMd8Pygo-Z7E4u0J21mAaQN$" class="">OARF.org</a><br class=""><b class="">Date:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Tuesday, 11 March 2025 at 16:24<br class=""><b class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Howard Bloom<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com"><howlbloom@aol.com></a>,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">"fis@listas.unizar.es"</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>, Katherine Peil<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com"><ktpeil@outlook.com></a><br class=""><b class="">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion?</span></div></div><p style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> </p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">Dear Kate, Howard and All,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">I have had highs in concerts and deep experiences with the Aborigines in the heart of Australia. These experiences seem to have little to do with each other. </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">The insight given to me by my experience in Australia evoked the thought "They are crazy over there". Where "over there" was European and American industrialized societies, their wrong path and lack of genuine meaning. </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">The insight given to me while blowing up balloons backstage at a Rolling Stones concert was, well, seeing Mick Jagger from the back while he elicited the highs in his frontal audience. (My girlfriend and I didn't have tickets and tried to get in and lucked out being asked if we wanted to help backstage.) So I, the Ph.D. -logician-philosopher-computer AI scientist-developmental biologist-cancer theorist-(back at you Howard<span style="font-family: "Apple Color Emoji";" class="">😉</span>), worked for a time for Mick Jagger! </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">What is the point?: I learned more from my interaction with a 50,000 year old mind in Australia than from all the science and even Mick Jagger! It was emotion but it was more. Certainly not material.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">As for the Beethoven sequence (of creating, encoding, interpreting and executing the encoding, hearing the execution, encoding and experiencing}, has interesting relations to embryonic development. Such transformations are at the heart of development and communication.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">-Eric</div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="">On 3/11/25 5:48 AM, Howard Bloom wrote:</div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 18pt;" class="">kate, your question about emotional contagion and what we can call "the cloud effect" is a good one.</span></div><p style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 18pt;" class=""> </span></p><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 18pt;" class="">about this statement, with which i deeply agree:</span></div><p style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 18pt;" class=""> </span></p><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; margin-left: 15pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 8pt; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(15, 105, 255);" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Avenir, sans-serif; font-size: 18pt;" class="">science is remiss if it fails to interrogate the nature and power of “faith”, given our embodied capacities for anomalous or “spiritual" experiences</span></div></blockquote><p style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 18pt;" class=""> </span></p><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 18pt;" class="">i'm an atheist. when science first grabbed hold of my soul when i was ten years old, its aspiration to me seemed to be omniscience.</span></div><p style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 18pt;" class=""> </span></p><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 18pt;" class="">spiritual experiences are real. they may not be manifestations of god, especially to folks like me to whom there is no god. so what the hell are they? where do they come from? how did they evolve? what do they mean? what do they tell us about the nature of the cosmos that has birthed them?</span></div><p style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 18pt;" class=""> </span></p><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 18pt;" class="">in my fieldwork in mass behavior, working with people like michael jackson and prince for 20 years, i saw collective ecstasies, what emil durkheim called "collective effervescence," ecstatic experiences at work in audiences all over north america.</span></div><p style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 18pt;" class=""> </span></p><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 18pt;" class="">in fact, one of the jobs of my entertainers was to reliably evoke these transcendent experiences. and in building the careers of people like Prince, it was my job to help deliver these ecstasies. they are real.</span></div><p style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 18pt;" class=""> </span></p><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 18pt;" class="">if science can't address the question of these experiences, it abandons the aspiration to omniscience. and it's not science.</span></div><p style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 18pt;" class=""> </span></p><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 18pt;" class="">with warmth and oomph--howard</span></div><p style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 18pt;" class=""> </span></p><div id="x_ydp697915adyahoo_quoted_2219450409" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);" class="">On Monday, March 10, 2025 at 07:49:34 PM EDT, Katherine Peil<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt; color: blue;" class=""><u class=""><a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com" id="OWAff8756f8-163a-460e-5512-ee9e5e698bc0" class="OWAAutoLink" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><ktpeil@outlook.com></a></u></span><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);" class=""> wrote:</span></div><div style="margin-left: 6pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204);" class=""><p style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);" class=""> </span></p><p style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);" class=""> </span></p><div id="x_ydp697915adyiv8145316312" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Avenir, sans-serif; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);" class="">Hello All,</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Avenir, sans-serif; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);" class="">The discussion about<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-family: Avenir, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);" class="">“</span><span style="font-family: Avenir, sans-serif; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);" class="">nothing" or “something" being exchanged between speakers and listeners prompts this<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-family: Avenir, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);" class="">question: What about the phenomenon of "emotional contagion”? Do Mike Levin’s revelation about bioelectricity bear upon the concept of “subtle energy”?</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Avenir, sans-serif; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);" class="">Also, science is remiss if it fails to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-family: Avenir, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);" class="">interrogate</span><span style="font-family: Avenir, sans-serif; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);" class=""> the nature and power of “faith”, given our embodied capacities for anomalous or “spiritual" experiences. Pre-emptive pejoratives are not good science, but they abound.</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Avenir, sans-serif; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);" class="">Kate Kauffman</span></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);" class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Fis mailing list<br class=""></span><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt; color: blue;" class=""><u class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" id="OWA13617090-d7ee-050f-7006-8e9854c59c11" class="OWAAutoLink moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a></u></span><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);" class=""><br class=""></span><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; 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font-size: 10pt;" class="">----------</div></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm;" class=""><div style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10pt;" class="">INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL</div></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm;" class=""><div style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10pt;" class=""> </div></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm;" class=""><div style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10pt;" class="">Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.</div></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm;" class=""><div style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10pt;" class="">Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <span style="color: blue;" class=""><u class=""><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" id="OWA0722ccba-c94f-90b5-eeca-410d0092550e" class="OWAAutoLink moz-txt-link-freetext" data-auth="NotApplicable" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: blue;">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a></u></span></div></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm;" class=""><div style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10pt;" class="">Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.</div></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm;" class=""><div style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10pt; color: blue;" class=""><u class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" id="OWA0d59ae5e-3bda-49bb-8bf2-2586cb0c8fa1" class="OWAAutoLink moz-txt-link-freetext" data-auth="NotApplicable" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: blue;">http://listas.unizar.es</a></u></div></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm;" class=""><div style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10pt;" class="">----------</div></pre></blockquote><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="">--<br class=""><i class="">Dr. Eric Werner, FLS<br class="">Oxford Advanced Research Foundation<br class=""></i><span style="color: blue;" class=""><i class=""><u class=""><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QQBg5ryajaFu_Ptr3S6YxNCU_E-oidIbq4uhG4e5rAsW4uD3RDIxCECAaYK01LoFG0BFWab52U1eaiQTN6meFGA$" id="OWAdc651247-c3fc-94ed-fc90-f35af5fe541f" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">https://oarf.org</a></u></i></span><i class=""><br class=""><br class=""></i></p><br class=""><fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset><pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
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</pre></blockquote><div class="moz-signature" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><i class="">Dr. Eric Werner, FLS<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Oxford Advanced Research Foundation<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SpZVVwbbI_sburJFrfYKguycoEAhY98EDf4U51Soe8svXnUuvRpDRsbJIa4hAG92EBBLm2YIJVnHM-3h-4zY72s$">https://oarf.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""></i></div><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; 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float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">----------</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">INFORMACI�N SOBRE PROTECCI�N DE DATOS DE CAR�CTER PERSONAL</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Puede encontrar toda la informaci�n sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Recuerde que si est� suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicaci�n en el momento en que lo desee.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">----------</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>