<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>Dear Materialists,</p>
<p>Some time ago in my distant past while teaching philosophy and
logic in Africa at the University of Ibadan, John Curran and I
held weekly meetings to discuss the foundations of physics. John's
central question was "What is matter?" I took the role of logician
and he the physical chemist. We had a great time of it. But never
a definite answer. I also held weekly meetings with a linguist
where I taught her Montague grammar. And weekly meetings with Tom
Tobias a neuroscientist on the nature of intention and its
realization in the brain (of monkeys and humans). Still no
definite answers but certainly not crude materialism. <br>
</p>
<p>Matter may just be generated by possibility spaces, whether or
not an observer. </p>
<p>Stu Kaufman and I have some ideas on the lack of definite phase
spaces and its relation to information. There is a lot to explore
there and that may have implications for the of physics and the
nature of matter. <br>
</p>
<p>Possibilities make up more of reality than existing matter.</p>
<p>-Eric<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/12/25 12:26 PM, Gordana Dodig
Crnkovic wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:FEAB7427-5356-4112-86FF-084E09CDB688@chalmers.se">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<meta name="Generator"
content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]-->
<style>@font-face
{font-family:Wingdings;
panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}@font-face
{font-family:Verdana;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}@font-face
{font-family:Aptos;
panose-1:2 11 0 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}@font-face
{font-family:"Apple Color Emoji";
panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}@font-face
{font-family:"Avenir Book";
panose-1:2 0 5 3 2 0 0 2 0 3;}@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}@font-face
{font-family:Avenir;
panose-1:2 0 5 3 2 0 0 2 0 3;}@font-face
{font-family:"Helvetica Neue";
panose-1:2 0 5 3 0 0 0 2 0 4;}p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;}h1
{mso-style-priority:9;
mso-style-link:"Heading 1 Char";
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:24.0pt;
font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;
font-weight:bold;}a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char";
margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}span.Heading1Char
{mso-style-name:"Heading 1 Char";
mso-style-priority:9;
mso-style-link:"Heading 1";
font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;
color:#2F5496;}span.HTMLPreformattedChar
{mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
font-family:Consolas;}span.EmailStyle22
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;
mso-ligatures:none;}div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}ol
{margin-bottom:0cm;}ul
{margin-bottom:0cm;}</style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
<div class="WordSection1">
<p><strong><span lang="SV"
style="font-family:"Avenir Book";font-weight:normal"><o:p> </o:p></span></strong></p>
<p><strong><span lang="SV"
style="font-family:"Avenir Book";font-weight:normal"><o:p> </o:p></span></strong></p>
<p><strong><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book";font-weight:normal">Dear
Dualists/Platonists/Spiritualists/Immaterialists,</span></strong><strong><span
lang="EN-US"
style="font-family:"Avenir Book";font-weight:normal"><o:p></o:p></span></strong></p>
<p><b><span lang="EN-US"
style="font-family:"Avenir Book""><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">At the very
bottom of all the mentioned phenomena lies matter.<br>
Yet, at the bottom of matter itself—when you open those
boxes of elementary particles, each containing yet more
boxes of more elementary particles, and so forth—at the very
bottom lies nothingness (for us).<br>
Thus, the opposition between materiality and immateriality
is less definitive than it might seem.</span><span lang="SV"
style="font-family:"Avenir Book""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV"
style="font-family:"Avenir Book""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">Crucially,
everything depends on the "observer" (actor): possibilities
(potential information), quantum mechanics, consciousness,
including “soul” in its various disguises. For Aristotle
“soul” was synonymous with life which is a very reasonable
view.</span><span lang="SV"
style="font-family:"Avenir Book""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="SV" style="font-family:"Avenir Book""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p><b><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">Without
“materiality” there is no “reality”</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book""> for an
observer/actor/agent in the world.</span><span lang="SV"
style="font-family:"Avenir Book""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="SV" style="font-family:"Avenir Book""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">Best
regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">Gordana<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">My second
message this week.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Eric
Werner <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a><br>
<b>Organisation: </b>OARF.org<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, 12 March 2025 at 11:58<br>
<b>To: </b>Peter Erdi <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu"><Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu></a>,
Gordana CHALMERS
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se"><gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se></a>, Katherine Peil
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com"><ktpeil@outlook.com></a>, Howard Bloom
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com"><howlbloom@aol.com></a>, <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">"fis@listas.unizar.es"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion? -The
Irreality of materialism<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p>Dear Materialists,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<h1>Reality of possibilities far exceeds material reality<o:p></o:p></h1>
</div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
There are more possibilities in most situations than there
is space in the universe to contain them,<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
Possibilities are real.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
Therefore, not all reality is physical or in physical
space time.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
In quantum mechanics there are more possibilities than
space in the universe to contain them.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
Therefore, there must be one or more extra dimensions to
contain them.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
The consciousness and cloning problem shows the
consciousness must be in another dimension beyond our four
dimensional space time<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
The soul if it exists may be partly in our four
dimensional space-time and partly in other dimensions of
reality.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
Materialism is just one aspect of reality. <o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
Reality is not just material it also contains the
immaterial which by far exceeds the material.<o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">At least those are my thoughts this
morning on a rainy day.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-Eric <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 3/11/25 8:35 PM, Peter Erdi wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">I am
supporting Gordana's arguments and suggest this
well-cited paper<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/psu-psychology.github.io/psy-511-scan-fdns-2018/lectures/pdf/The_neural_bases_of_emotion_re.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!X8l0cGXYnCDoWwpQdAKdeXofWqb9cy_mWyKiqDJK2ExjYcnj70EhtVRKY6IcHZLG6A96uAXbqawoFIm68LZD_HH9$"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://psu-psychology.github.io/psy-511-scan-fdns-2018/lectures/pdf/The_neural_bases_of_emotion_re.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">All the best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center"
style="text-align:center">
<hr size="0" width="100%" align="center">
</div>
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> Fis
<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a>
on behalf of Gordana Dodig Crnkovic
<a href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se"
moz-do-not-send="true"><gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 11, 2025 1:41 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Eric Werner <a
href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>;
Katherine Peil
<a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><ktpeil@outlook.com></a>;
Howard Bloom <a href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<howlbloom@aol.com></a>; <a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion?</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Dear Eric,
Kate, Howard, and All,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Being a
physicist, and reading recent discussions, I would like to
argue that there is no such thing as immaterial emotions.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">At the
core, emotions are material phenomena.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Likewise, <i>relations</i> are
fundamentally material. There is no information without
physical implementation, as Landauer famously argued.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Below are
my five arguments on embodyment of emotional contagion.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">1.
Emotional Contagion is a Biological Process</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Emotional
contagion occurs through bodily interactions—facial
expressions, gestures, tone of voice, posture, and even
subtle physiological signals (heart rate, breathing
patterns). When one person smiles, it activates mirror
neurons in the observer’s brain, prompting similar facial
muscles to contract, causing measurable physical changes
and subsequent shifts in emotional state.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">2.
Emotional Contagion is Chemically Mediated</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Emotional
states are directly connected to biochemical substances
like oxytocin, cortisol, dopamine, and serotonin. When
emotional contagion happens, it does so through these
material biochemical mediators.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">3.
Emotional Contagion Based on Embodiment of Emotion</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Emotions
are not "floating" entities—they are communicated via
bodily presence. The presence of a physical body
expressing emotion is essential for contagion. Without
physical embodiment (special facial expressions, sound,
rhythm, smell, touch, posture, movements), emotional
contagion does not occur. Emotions transmitted through
screens (video calls) are weaker compared to face-to-face
interactions precisely because physical embodiment.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">4.
Manipulability of Emotional Contagion</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Emotional
contagion can be modified or dampened pharmacologically
(e.g., through anxiety-reducing drugs). If emotions were
immaterial, medications wouldn't alter emotional
responses. Beta-blockers reduce physical symptoms of
anxiety (heartbeat, shaking), weakening emotional
contagion (e.g., stage fright contagion). Antidepressants
directly alter emotional contagion by stabilizing
neurotransmitters.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">5.
Neuroscientific Evidence of Embodied Resonance</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Neuroimaging
clearly demonstrates activation of specific physical brain
areas (mirror neuron systems, limbic system, amygdala)
during emotional reactions. This direct neural activity is
material. Seeing someone in pain activates similar pain
circuits in the observer's brain—physically embodying the
emotion in neural tissue.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">How this
counters the immaterial perspective?</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Those who
argue emotions are "immaterial" claim emotions are
disconnected from the body. However, emotional contagion’s
dependence on observable, biological, chemical, and
neurological mechanisms refute this clearly. If emotions
were immaterial, contagion wouldn’t require physical
presence with related physiological processes involving
chemical, or neuronal pathways.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">All the
best,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Gordana</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">PS</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">My
arguments are the result of a long discussion with
GPT-4.5, which produced 20 pages of text. These were the
prompts I used:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0cm" start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Can you
please explain emotional contagion to me?</span><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Do you see
a connection to the resonance phenomena in physics?*</span><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">What are
the main differences between physical resonance and
emotional contagion?<br>
(At this point, GPT-4.5 began to explain the view that
emotions, like consciousness, are subjective and
therefore immaterial, while physical resonance is a
material phenomenon. I argued that it confused
"subjective" with "immaterial." Subjective experience is
necessarily embodied and thus has a material substrate.
GPT-4.5 accepted my arguments.)</span><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Can you
summarize this discussion?</span><o:p></o:p></li>
</ol>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Finally, I
edited the summary, shortening it.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">I wrote
this mail and asked GPT-4.5 to check my English.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">What was my
contribution?<br>
A physicist's view on emotional contagion.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">* Resonance
occurs when an external force or
<i>driving frequency matches the natural frequency of a
system</i>, causing the system to oscillate with greatly
increased amplitude.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p><b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From: </span></b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Fis
<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a>
on behalf of Eric Werner
<a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a><br>
<b>Organisation: </b>OARF.org<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, 11 March 2025 at 16:24<br>
<b>To: </b>Howard Bloom <a
href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><howlbloom@aol.com></a>,
<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true">"fis@listas.unizar.es"</a> <a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<fis@listas.unizar.es></a>, Katherine Peil <a
href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><ktpeil@outlook.com></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Dear Kate, Howard and All,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I have had highs in concerts and deep experiences with the
Aborigines in the heart of Australia. These experiences seem
to have little to do with each other. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The insight given to me by my experience in Australia
evoked the thought "They are crazy over there". Where "over
there" was European and American industrialized societies,
their wrong path and lack of genuine meaning. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The insight given to me while blowing up balloons backstage
at a Rolling Stones concert was, well, seeing Mick Jagger
from the back while he elicited the highs in his frontal
audience. (My girlfriend and I didn't have tickets and tried
to get in and lucked out being asked if we wanted to help
backstage.) So I, the Ph.D. -logician-philosopher-computer
AI scientist-developmental biologist-cancer theorist-(back
at you Howard<span
style="font-family:"Apple Color Emoji"">😉</span>),
worked for a time for Mick Jagger! <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>What is the point?: I learned more from my interaction with
a 50,000 year old mind in Australia than from all the
science and even Mick Jagger! It was emotion but it was
more. Certainly not material.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>As for the Beethoven sequence (of creating, encoding,
interpreting and executing the encoding, hearing the
execution, encoding and experiencing}, has interesting
relations to embryonic development. Such transformations are
at the heart of development and communication.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>-Eric<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>On 3/11/25 5:48 AM, Howard Bloom wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">kate,
your question about emotional contagion and what we can
call "the cloud effect" is a good one.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">about
this statement, with which i deeply agree:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #0F69FF 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8.0pt;margin-left:15.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Avenir",sans-serif">science
is remiss if it fails to interrogate the nature and
power of “faith”, given our embodied capacities
for anomalous or “spiritual" experiences</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">i'm
an atheist. when science first grabbed hold of my soul
when i was ten years old, its aspiration to me seemed to
be omniscience.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">spiritual
experiences are real. they may not be manifestations of
god, especially to folks like me to whom there is no
god. so what the hell are they? where do they come
from? how did they evolve? what do they mean? what do
they tell us about the nature of the cosmos that has
birthed them?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">in
my fieldwork in mass behavior, working with people like
michael jackson and prince for 20 years, i saw
collective ecstasies, what emil durkheim called
"collective effervescence," ecstatic experiences at
work in audiences all over north america.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">in
fact, one of the jobs of my entertainers was to reliably
evoke these transcendent experiences. and in building
the careers of people like Prince, it was my job to help
deliver these ecstasies. they are real.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">if
science can't address the question of these experiences,
it abandons the aspiration to omniscience. and it's not
science.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">with
warmth and oomph--howard</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div id="x_ydp697915adyahoo_quoted_2219450409">
<p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:#26282A">On
Monday, March 10, 2025 at 07:49:34 PM EDT, Katherine
Peil
</span><u><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:blue"><a
href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><ktpeil@outlook.com></a></span></u><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:#26282A"> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:6.0pt">
<p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:#26282A"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:#26282A"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div id="x_ydp697915adyiv8145316312">
<p><span
style="font-family:"Avenir",sans-serif;color:#26282A">Hello
All,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Avenir",sans-serif;color:#26282A">The
discussion about
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Avenir",sans-serif;color:#26282A">“</span><span
style="font-family:"Avenir",sans-serif;color:#26282A">nothing"
or “something" being exchanged between speakers
and listeners prompts this
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Avenir",sans-serif;color:#26282A">question:
What about the phenomenon of "emotional
contagion”? Do Mike Levin’s
revelation about bioelectricity bear upon the
concept of “subtle energy”?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Avenir",sans-serif;color:#26282A">Also,
science is remiss if it fails to
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Avenir",sans-serif;color:#26282A">interrogate</span><span
style="font-family:"Avenir",sans-serif;color:#26282A"> the
nature and power of “faith”, given our embodied
capacities for anomalous or
“spiritual" experiences. Pre-emptive pejoratives
are not good science, but they abound.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Avenir",sans-serif;color:#26282A">Kate
Kauffman</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:#26282A">_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
</span><u><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:blue"><a
href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a></span></u><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:#26282A"><br>
</span><u><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:blue"><a
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a></span></u><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:#26282A"><br>
----------<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER
PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de
correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como
tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:
</span><u><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:blue"><a
href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a></span></u><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:#26282A"><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria
Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación
en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
</span><u><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:blue"><a
href="http://listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es</a></span></u><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:#26282A"><br>
----------</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre>Fis mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre><u><span style="color:blue"><a
href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a></span></u><span
style="color:blue"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre><u><span style="color:blue"><a
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a></span></u><span
style="color:blue"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre>----------<o:p></o:p></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre>INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<o:p></o:p></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre>Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre>Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <u><span
style="color:blue"><a
href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a></span></u><o:p></o:p></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre>Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre><u><span style="color:blue"><a
href="http://listas.unizar.es" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es</a></span></u><span
style="color:blue"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre>----------<o:p></o:p></pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">--<br>
<i>Dr. Eric Werner, FLS<br>
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation<br>
<u><span style="color:blue"><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QQBg5ryajaFu_Ptr3S6YxNCU_E-oidIbq4uhG4e5rAsW4uD3RDIxCECAaYK01LoFG0BFWab52U1eaiQTN6meFGA$"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://oarf.org</a></span></u></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Fis mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>----------<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a
href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://listas.unizar.es" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>----------<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">-- <br>
<i>Dr. Eric Werner, FLS <br>
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br>
<a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Qpq9pR0oB2_jaAWNg2L_R7UCvTWySkxmXXpPS8Q9htI65zoWGhJwHibzSgB9P9W3DsVt3lCxPq9l-r5N3Zidhpa-E4MYun93$"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://oarf.org</a> <br>
<br>
</i><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
----------
</pre>
</blockquote>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<i>
Dr. Eric Werner, FLS <br>
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!U9Czzt1x3euX6nKUqjyhUSww1lFo1B2wOyUhAmLjiDhWoezR3qmHkeNyM6qCMrHGgQC85OVLNYj-_QsdxSJWoAE$">https://oarf.org</a> <br>
<br>
<br>
</i></div>
</body>
</html>