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<p>Oh Karl, please not the books again! <br>
</p>
<p>I am out of messages for the week. But fantasy is the bedrock of
developing new concepts and theories. Perhaps we need fantasy to
get out of the Procrustean bed of 12 books? Let's bake something
more than small rolls. <br>
</p>
<p>-Eric<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/12/25 3:06 PM, Karl Javorszky
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+nf4CUxM4t9n-mH5vo5sK3_JNar8_UtocTZf+HVZsQKMffcfA@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="auto">Eric, you have a flowering phantasy. Let us bake
smaller rolls. Let us begin with 12 books to bring in order.
Talk in terms of order.
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Dr. Eric Werner <<a
href="mailto:evwerner@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">evwerner@gmail.com</a>>
schrieb am Mi., 12. März 2025, 15:02:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">Dear Karl and all materials ,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But numbers are neutral without any implications.
Perhaps you are just projecting meaning onto numbers.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Numbers don’t necessarily imply that we know what
we’re talking about.<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>By the way, my hypothesis about possibilities
generating matter may actually explain dark matter.
Since possibilities vastly out number the reality of
matter. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The only problem is that possibilities vastly
outnumber even dark matter. So it may be that a higher
dimensional possibility space is interacting with our
lower dimensional space time. in such a case, only
some of the possibilities interact with manifest
matter.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Interesting thoughts aren’t</div>
<div>they?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Eric </div>
<div><br
id="m_-6439793129146285798lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature">
<div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Mar 12, 2025, at 13:24,
Karl Javorszky <<a
href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="auto">And a very good second message,
Gordana.
<div dir="auto"><br>
<div dir="auto">Indeed, the idea of reality is
hard to understand without taking reference
to numbers. At least, with numbers we know
what we are talking about.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Consider the whole setup under
the perspective of order. Then we have
amounts with properties and places where the
amounts can be during periodic changes. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">We quickly arrive at
logistics, seeing that a reorder is a task
expressed in [mkg]. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Which part of the composition
of distances and amounts one uses as the
explanation of the interplay, is culture
dependent. We usually find distances more
objective than amounts. So our explanation
will show amounts as a form of agglomeration
of distances. We can also explain that the
properties of amounts necessarily implicate
the existence of distances between them. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Reality is a subset of
possibilities. The rules that filter out the
alternatives that may, and such that can and
such that probably will come into existence
(aka 'reality') are numeric by Nature. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I will spare you the details,
but be assured, there is a rational way to
classify diverse types and degrees of
reality.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">The numbers support your
material concepts</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Respectfully </div>
<div dir="auto">Karl </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Gordana Dodig
Crnkovic <<a
href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se" target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se</a>>
schrieb am Mi., 12. März 2025, 12:27:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="en-SE" link="blue" vlink="purple"
style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div>
<p><strong><span lang="SV"
style="font-family:"Avenir Book";font-weight:normal"> </span></strong></p>
<p><strong><span lang="SV"
style="font-family:"Avenir Book";font-weight:normal"> </span></strong></p>
<p><strong><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book";font-weight:normal">Dear
Dualists/Platonists/Spiritualists/Immaterialists,</span></strong><strong><span
lang="EN-US"
style="font-family:"Avenir Book";font-weight:normal"></span></strong></p>
<p><b><span lang="EN-US"
style="font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">At the very bottom of all
the mentioned phenomena lies matter.<br>
Yet, at the bottom of matter
itself—when you open those boxes of
elementary particles, each containing
yet more boxes of more elementary
particles, and so forth—at the very
bottom lies nothingness (for us).<br>
Thus, the opposition between
materiality and immateriality is less
definitive than it might seem.</span><span
lang="SV"
style="font-family:"Avenir Book""></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV"
style="font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">Crucially, everything
depends on the "observer" (actor):
possibilities (potential information),
quantum mechanics, consciousness,
including “soul” in its various
disguises. For Aristotle “soul” was
synonymous with life which is a very
reasonable view.</span><span lang="SV"
style="font-family:"Avenir Book""></span></p>
<p><span lang="SV"
style="font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></p>
<p><b><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">Without “materiality” there
is no “reality”</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book""> for an observer/actor/agent
in the world.</span><span lang="SV"
style="font-family:"Avenir Book""></span></p>
<p><span lang="SV"
style="font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">Best regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">Gordana</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">My second message this week.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Eric
Werner <<a
href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">eric.werner@oarf.org</a>><br>
<b>Organisation: </b>OARF.org<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, 12 March
2025 at 11:58<br>
<b>To: </b>Peter Erdi <<a
href="mailto:Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu</a>>,
Gordana CHALMERS <<a
href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se</a>>,
Katherine Peil <<a
href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">ktpeil@outlook.com</a>>,
Howard Bloom <<a
href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">howlbloom@aol.com</a>>,
"<a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>"
<<a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Fis] Emotional
Contagion? -The Irreality of
materialism</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p>Dear Materialists,</p>
<p> </p>
<div>
<div>
<h1>Reality of possibilities far
exceeds material reality</h1>
</div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal">
There are more possibilities in most
situations than there is space in
the universe to contain them,</li>
<li class="MsoNormal">
Possibilities are real.</li>
<li class="MsoNormal">
Therefore, not all reality is
physical or in physical space time.</li>
<li class="MsoNormal">
In quantum mechanics there are more
possibilities than space in the
universe to contain them.</li>
<li class="MsoNormal">
Therefore, there must be one or more
extra dimensions to contain them.</li>
<li class="MsoNormal">
The consciousness and cloning
problem shows the consciousness must
be in another dimension beyond our
four dimensional space time</li>
<li class="MsoNormal">
The soul if it exists may be partly
in our four dimensional space-time
and partly in other dimensions of
reality.</li>
<li class="MsoNormal">
Materialism is just one aspect of
reality. </li>
<li class="MsoNormal">
Reality is not just material it also
contains the immaterial which by far
exceeds the material.</li>
</ul>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">At least those are
my thoughts this morning on a rainy
day.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-Eric </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 3/11/25 8:35 PM,
Peter Erdi wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black">I am
supporting Gordana's arguments and
suggest this well-cited paper</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black"><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/psu-psychology.github.io/psy-511-scan-fdns-2018/lectures/pdf/The_neural_bases_of_emotion_re.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!X8l0cGXYnCDoWwpQdAKdeXofWqb9cy_mWyKiqDJK2ExjYcnj70EhtVRKY6IcHZLG6A96uAXbqawoFIm68LZD_HH9$"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://psu-psychology.github.io/psy-511-scan-fdns-2018/lectures/pdf/The_neural_bases_of_emotion_re.pdf</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black">All the best,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black">Peter</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center"
style="text-align:center">
<hr size="0" width="100%"
align="center">
</div>
<div
id="m_-6439793129146285798m_-5850970400598797596divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> Fis
<a
href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a>
on behalf of Gordana Dodig
Crnkovic
<a
href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 11,
2025 1:41 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Eric Werner <a
href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>;
Katherine Peil
<a
href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><ktpeil@outlook.com></a>;
Howard Bloom <a
href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<howlbloom@aol.com></a>; <a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis]
Emotional Contagion?</span> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Dear Eric,
Kate, Howard, and All,</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Being a
physicist, and reading recent
discussions, I would like to
argue that there is no such thing as
immaterial emotions.</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">At the
core, emotions are material
phenomena.</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Likewise, <i>relations</i> are
fundamentally material. There is no
information without physical
implementation, as Landauer famously
argued.</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Below are
my five arguments on embodyment of
emotional contagion.</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></p>
<p><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">1.
Emotional Contagion is a
Biological Process</span></b></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Emotional
contagion occurs through bodily
interactions—facial expressions,
gestures, tone of voice, posture,
and even subtle physiological
signals (heart rate, breathing
patterns). When one person smiles,
it activates mirror neurons in the
observer’s brain, prompting similar
facial muscles to contract, causing
measurable physical changes and
subsequent shifts in emotional
state.</span></p>
<p><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">2.
Emotional Contagion is Chemically
Mediated</span></b></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Emotional
states are directly connected to
biochemical substances like
oxytocin, cortisol, dopamine, and
serotonin. When emotional contagion
happens, it does so through these
material biochemical mediators.</span></p>
<p><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">3.
Emotional Contagion Based on
Embodiment of Emotion</span></b></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Emotions
are not "floating" entities—they are
communicated via bodily presence.
The presence of a physical body
expressing emotion is essential for
contagion. Without physical
embodiment (special facial
expressions, sound, rhythm, smell,
touch, posture, movements),
emotional contagion does not occur.
Emotions transmitted through screens
(video calls) are weaker compared to
face-to-face interactions precisely
because physical embodiment.</span></p>
<p><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">4.
Manipulability of Emotional
Contagion</span></b></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Emotional
contagion can be modified or
dampened pharmacologically (e.g.,
through anxiety-reducing drugs). If
emotions were immaterial,
medications wouldn't alter emotional
responses. Beta-blockers reduce
physical symptoms of anxiety
(heartbeat, shaking), weakening
emotional contagion (e.g., stage
fright contagion). Antidepressants
directly alter emotional contagion
by stabilizing neurotransmitters.</span></p>
<p><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">5.
Neuroscientific Evidence of
Embodied Resonance</span></b></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Neuroimaging
clearly demonstrates activation of
specific physical brain areas
(mirror neuron systems, limbic
system, amygdala) during emotional
reactions. This direct neural
activity is material. Seeing someone
in pain activates similar pain
circuits in the observer's
brain—physically embodying the
emotion in neural tissue.</span></p>
<p><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></b></p>
<p><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">How this
counters the immaterial
perspective?</span></b></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Those who
argue emotions are "immaterial"
claim emotions are disconnected from
the body. However, emotional
contagion’s dependence on
observable, biological, chemical,
and neurological mechanisms refute
this clearly. If emotions were
immaterial, contagion wouldn’t
require physical presence with
related physiological processes
involving chemical, or neuronal
pathways.</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">All the
best,</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Gordana</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">PS</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">My
arguments are the result of a long
discussion with GPT-4.5, which
produced 20 pages of text. These
were the prompts I used:</span></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0cm" start="1"
type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Can you
please explain emotional contagion
to me?</span></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Do you see
a connection to the resonance
phenomena in physics?*</span></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">What are
the main differences between
physical resonance and emotional
contagion?<br>
(At this point, GPT-4.5 began to
explain the view that emotions,
like consciousness, are subjective
and therefore immaterial, while
physical resonance is a material
phenomenon. I argued that it
confused "subjective" with
"immaterial." Subjective
experience is necessarily embodied
and thus has a material substrate.
GPT-4.5 accepted my arguments.)</span></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Can you
summarize this discussion?</span></li>
</ol>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Finally, I
edited the summary, shortening it.</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">I wrote
this mail and asked GPT-4.5 to check
my English.</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">What was my
contribution?<br>
A physicist's view on emotional
contagion.</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">* Resonance
occurs when an external force or
<i>driving frequency matches the
natural frequency of a system</i>,
causing the system to oscillate with
greatly increased amplitude.</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p><b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From: </span></b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Fis
<a
href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a>
on behalf of Eric Werner
<a
href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a><br>
<b>Organisation: </b>OARF.org<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, 11 March
2025 at 16:24<br>
<b>To: </b>Howard Bloom <a
href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><howlbloom@aol.com></a>,
<a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">"fis@listas.unizar.es"</a>
<a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<fis@listas.unizar.es></a>,
Katherine Peil <a
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rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
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<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Fis]
Emotional Contagion?</span></p>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p>Dear Kate, Howard and All,</p>
<p>I have had highs in concerts and deep
experiences with the Aborigines in the
heart of Australia. These experiences
seem to have little to do with each
other. </p>
<p>The insight given to me by my
experience in Australia evoked the
thought "They are crazy over there".
Where "over there" was European and
American industrialized societies,
their wrong path and lack of genuine
meaning. </p>
<p>The insight given to me while blowing
up balloons backstage at a Rolling
Stones concert was, well, seeing Mick
Jagger from the back while he elicited
the highs in his frontal audience. (My
girlfriend and I didn't have tickets
and tried to get in and lucked out
being asked if we wanted to help
backstage.) So I, the Ph.D.
-logician-philosopher-computer AI
scientist-developmental
biologist-cancer theorist-(back at you
Howard<span
style="font-family:"Apple Color Emoji"">😉</span>), worked for
a time for Mick Jagger! </p>
<p>What is the point?: I learned more
from my interaction with a 50,000 year
old mind in Australia than from all
the science and even Mick Jagger! It
was emotion but it was more. Certainly
not material.</p>
<p>As for the Beethoven sequence (of
creating, encoding, interpreting and
executing the encoding, hearing the
execution, encoding and experiencing},
has interesting relations to embryonic
development. Such transformations are
at the heart of development and
communication.</p>
<p>-Eric</p>
<p>On 3/11/25 5:48 AM, Howard Bloom
wrote:</p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">kate,
your question about emotional
contagion and what we can call
"the cloud effect" is a good one.</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">about
this statement, with which i
deeply agree:</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #0f69ff 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8.0pt;margin-left:15.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Avenir",sans-serif">science
is remiss if it fails
to interrogate the nature and
power of “faith”, given our
embodied capacities
for anomalous or
“spiritual" experiences</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">i'm
an atheist. when science first
grabbed hold of my soul when i was
ten years old, its aspiration to
me seemed to be omniscience.</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">spiritual
experiences are real. they may
not be manifestations of god,
especially to folks like me to
whom there is no god. so what the
hell are they? where do they come
from? how did they evolve? what
do they mean? what do they tell
us about the nature of the cosmos
that has birthed them?</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">in
my fieldwork in mass behavior,
working with people like michael
jackson and prince for 20 years, i
saw collective ecstasies, what
emil durkheim called "collective
effervescence," ecstatic
experiences at work in audiences
all over north america.</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">in
fact, one of the jobs of my
entertainers was to reliably evoke
these transcendent experiences.
and in building the careers of
people like Prince, it was my job
to help deliver these ecstasies.
they are real.</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">if
science can't address the question
of these experiences, it abandons
the aspiration to omniscience.
and it's not science.</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">with
warmth and oomph--howard</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<div
id="m_-6439793129146285798m_-5850970400598797596x_ydp697915adyahoo_quoted_2219450409">
<p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:#26282a">On
Monday, March 10, 2025 at
07:49:34 PM EDT, Katherine Peil
</span><u><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:blue"><a
href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><ktpeil@outlook.com></a></span></u><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:#26282a"> wrote:</span></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:6.0pt">
<p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:#26282a"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:#26282a"> </span></p>
<div
id="m_-6439793129146285798m_-5850970400598797596x_ydp697915adyiv8145316312">
<p><span
style="font-family:"Avenir",sans-serif;color:#26282a">Hello
All,</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Avenir",sans-serif;color:#26282a">The
discussion about
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Avenir",sans-serif;color:#26282a">“</span><span
style="font-family:"Avenir",sans-serif;color:#26282a">nothing"
or “something" being
exchanged between speakers
and listeners prompts this
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Avenir",sans-serif;color:#26282a">question:
What about the phenomenon of
"emotional contagion”? Do
Mike Levin’s
revelation about bioelectricity
bear upon the concept
of “subtle energy”?</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Avenir",sans-serif;color:#26282a">Also,
science is remiss if it
fails to
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Avenir",sans-serif;color:#26282a">interrogate</span><span
style="font-family:"Avenir",sans-serif;color:#26282a"> the
nature and power of “faith”,
given our embodied
capacities for anomalous or
“spiritual" experiences.
Pre-emptive pejoratives are
not good science, but they
abound.</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Avenir",sans-serif;color:#26282a">Kate
Kauffman</span></p>
</div>
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