<p dir="ltr">Jason : would "begin our explorations" not begin with</p>
<p dir="ltr">"so, let us see what the numbers say."</p>
<p dir="ltr">Remember, if it doesn't add up, it is evidently false.<br>
If we have a valid theory of <whatever>, it will definitely add up.</p>
<p dir="ltr">So, one of the methods is to massage the numbers until one finds a relation that can be translated into human speech, referring to concepts made by humans.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Give the numbers a chance.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Best<br>
Karl<br>
</p>
<br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Jason Hu <<a href="mailto:jasonthegoodman@gmail.com">jasonthegoodman@gmail.com</a>> schrieb am Di., 11. März 2025, 17:13:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Dear Krassimir and deal all,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Whether or not something in the conceptual territory is erroneous or not, depends on if consensus about it exists or not - and if yes, consensus among whom - how large is the community holding that consensus. Unfortunately, in human history and in the evolution of civilization, things are always less ideal. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Perhaps due to my poor English, I used the word "something"(some thing) in the Beethoven story not accurately. A better word if existing, should be "someform." (some form). Some "form" from Beethoven's head managed to pass a long chain of transformations (carried by many different type of "things") but successfully landed in your brain "unchanged" - that all people who heard Beethoven agree. I was trying to highlight the concept of isomorphy, which is a foundational concept for all system sciences/cybernetics/informatics.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Indeed, Shannon didn't talk about "inthingation", but "in-form-ation" because it is not a thing but a form. Lou must be delighted because he has been discussing Law of Form for a long time. Not matter, not energy, but only pure form. Not Lou's ropes, but the abstract "knots."<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Recently at Club of Remy a group effort about developing a curriculum has refocused from "cybernetics 101" to "SCI 101", where SCI stands for Systemics-Cybernetics-Informatics. The three sister fields can do better unifying together - one cannot just do one without mentioning the other two anyway. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Note "SCI" happens to be (less than) half of the word "Science," the rest "ENCE" can stand for Experimentation, Naming hypothesis, Communicate-Converse-Consensus-Coordination-Creation, & Engineering-Embodiment-Empowerment. So my guess is your concern is for these later elements, but we can also focus on Systems, Cybernetics, and Information to begin our explorations.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Best regards - Jason</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"> </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Mar 10, 2025 at 3:54 PM Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">itheaiss@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><font size="4">Dear Jason,<br><br>Your letter is interesting, but it contains two erroneous assumptions.<br><br>1. The clergy are the bearers of certain cultural mental models that govern the organization of the masses of people, maintaining the homeostasis of society. They govern a large part of the population and thus influence the existence of ethnicities. They follow models that are not subject to verification, and therefore there is no reason to enter into discussions with them or other scientific interactions! And, of course, there is no need to dismiss them!<br><br>2. The assumption that something is transmitted during information interaction is deeply erroneous, but thanks to Shannon it is widely accepted. This is also evident from your letter. Apparently, superficial reading prevents understanding what is happening.</font><div><font size="4">The answer to your question “In the above 10 steps, what on earth is this “something” that is transmitted from one form to another... material or immaterial, or both, or neither?”<br>The answer is “neither!”<br>Pencho Slaveykov, a Bulgarian poet from the early 20th century, said:<br>“The speaker does not convey his thought to the listener, but his sounds and performances provoke the listener’s thought.<br>Between them, a process takes place like the lighting of a candle, where the flame of the first candle does not transmit to another flame, but only provokes it.”<br>A more extensive explanation of this will be given in my speech “The Key Role of Information Interaction” at the IS4SI 2025 Summit in June.</font></div><div><font size="4"><br>This is my second post this week, so I will continue in 7 days.<br>With respect,<br>Krassimir</font><br></div></div><div id="m_4352087730501822149m_-9120208648173515539DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br><table style="border-top:1px solid rgb(211,212,222)"><tbody><tr><td style="width:55px;padding-top:13px"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TD8ZFlyWiE6DRHfRBCltmM2s1A6rS40Gdor_ydJM9Cd15LBia_zYxe9rMgt4osPAjrXFeblt862JaLEkC51p3zqFeteK$" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><img src="https://s-install.avcdn.net/ipm/preview/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width:46px;height:29px"></a></td><td style="width:470px;padding-top:12px;color:rgb(65,66,78);font-size:13px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:18px">Virus-free.<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TD8ZFlyWiE6DRHfRBCltmM2s1A6rS40Gdor_ydJM9Cd15LBia_zYxe9rMgt4osPAjrXFeblt862JaLEkC51p3zqFeteK$" style="color:rgb(68,83,234)" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">www.avast.com</a></td></tr></tbody></table><a href="#m_4352087730501822149_m_-9120208648173515539_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1" rel="noreferrer"></a></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">На пн, 10.03.2025 г. в 18:17 Jason Hu <<a href="mailto:jasonthegoodman@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">jasonthegoodman@gmail.com</a>> написа:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size:large">Dear Krassimir, </div><div style="font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-size:large">Your principle is interesing, but, are you going to fire all the priests and pastors and clergymen and preachers...and all their Bible Study Group heads? 😁😁😁 </div><div style="font-size:large">Re the topic of materiality versus immateriality, consider this scenario:</div><div style="font-size:large"><ol><li>Something emerges within the brain of Beethoven.</li><li>He grabbed his music sheets and wrote something on them.</li><li>Those sheets were sent to a publisher.</li><li>The published scores were bought by a group of musicians.</li><li>The musicians fussed around with their instruments according to those scores.</li><li>Their instruments caused the air in the hall to vibrate like crazy.</li><li>The air in the hall strikes your eardrum.</li><li>The neurons in your ear send electric pulses to your brain.</li><li>Your brain caused your skin to show some goosebumps.</li><li> And in your brain emerges a thought... ah ah, Beethoven!</li></ol><div>In the above 10 steps, what on earth is that "thing" being passed from one form to another... material or immaterial, or both, or neither?</div><div>Best - Jason</div></div><div style="font-size:large"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Mar 10, 2025 at 5:01 AM Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">itheaiss@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><font size="4">Dear Marcus,<br>Thank you for your words and your willingness to develop our ideas together. I like to work with colleagues when I have free time for this. Such collaboration usually gives good results. As an example, I can cite my collaboration with Mark Burgin, which led to the creation of a dual theory of mine, which naturally complements it by presenting a model that further develops the Theory of Reflections.<br>Unfortunately, this year is too busy for me to be able to devote time to in-depth collaboration. There are many scientific events coming up, at the center of which I am also, and this prevents me from concentrating on systematic collaboration.<br><br>Dear Howard,<br>You introduced your mental model by saying:<br>“if information and mental models are configurations of material things--neurons--then the configurations are yet another example of the material power of immaterial things.<br>The configurations are immaterial."</font><div><font size="4"><br>There are two approaches to mental models - religious and scientific. </font></div><div><font size="4">In the first, it is enough to believe in order to perceive them, while in the second, experimental data are needed. I adhere to the scientific approach.</font></div><div><font size="4"><br>If you do not have such data and/or cannot give at least an example showing the immateriality of configurations, then your model belongs to religion.<br>The colleagues on the FIS list know my principle well -<br>"Belief should be believed, not discussed!"<br>Therefore, if you do not have scientific arguments, we will have to stop there.<br><br>With respect,<br>Krassimir</font><br></div></div><div id="m_4352087730501822149m_-9120208648173515539m_-3101575389990656074m_4290274843470237242DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br><table style="border-top:1px solid rgb(211,212,222)"><tbody><tr><td style="width:55px;padding-top:13px"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WT2Fc9fFrRKjIKUeuxHJKfd0b2ywOHuYv3vtXnqgYKu1mEMFJPrqgddwC861WVXdn1a5Ync0Hbv7dFyl-cs$" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><img src="https://s-install.avcdn.net/ipm/preview/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width:46px;height:29px"></a></td><td style="width:470px;padding-top:12px;color:rgb(65,66,78);font-size:13px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:18px">Virus-free.<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WT2Fc9fFrRKjIKUeuxHJKfd0b2ywOHuYv3vtXnqgYKu1mEMFJPrqgddwC861WVXdn1a5Ync0Hbv7dFyl-cs$" style="color:rgb(68,83,234)" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">www.avast.com</a></td></tr></tbody></table><a href="#m_4352087730501822149_m_-9120208648173515539_m_-3101575389990656074_m_4290274843470237242_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1" rel="noreferrer"></a></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">На пн, 10.03.2025 г. в 1:57 Howard Bloom <<a href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">howlbloom@aol.com</a>> написа:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:24px"><div></div>
<div dir="ltr">interesting thoughts, krassimir. well worth pondering.</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">one note. if information and mental models are configurations of material things--neurons--then the configurations are yet another example of the material power of immaterial things.</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><span><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black;letter-spacing:-0.25pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"> The configurations are immaterial.</span></span><br></div><div dir="ltr"><span><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black;letter-spacing:-0.25pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><br></span></span></div><div dir="ltr"><span><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black;letter-spacing:-0.25pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span>with warmth and oomph--howard</span><br></span></span></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div><br></div>
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On Sunday, March 9, 2025 at 05:04:16 AM EDT, Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">itheaiss@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
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<div><div id="m_4352087730501822149m_-9120208648173515539m_-3101575389990656074m_4290274843470237242m_-4117154438458659205ydpf62f003byiv6256278337"><div dir="ltr"><p><br></p>
<p><span style="font-size:14pt"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">Dear Howard,</span><span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">You wrote:</span><span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">"... but I’m curious to hear your reason for not using information
as the term for all immaterial mysteries."</span><span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">Here is my answer:</span><span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%"> </span><span></span></p><p><b><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">The Information definition as it is in the General
Information Theory (GIT)</span></b><span></span></p><p><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">We
perceive </span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">(reflect) <b>reality</b></span><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%"> through our sensors, after which </span><b><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">reflections
(data) </span></b><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">pass
through the sensory memory and enter the temporary memory of the brain. It is
here that our consciousness has already prepared a corresponding mental model</span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%"> loaded
from long term memory (Information Expectation,” IE”)</span><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">, through which we will recognize the
data. Only after </span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">data is</span><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%"> recognized and connected to </span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">the
information expectation</span><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">, the data, together with the part of the </span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">IE </span><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">with which </span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">it is</span><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%"> connected (<b>meaning</b>!),
are perceived as information. That is, only at this stage</span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">, </span><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">we will have </span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">mental model,
which is </span><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">“information”.</span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%"> In
other words, <b>information is</b> <b>data with meaning</b>. The
information may be stored in the long term memory as a new mental model
(usually called “<b>knowledge</b>”).</span><span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">If data is equal to the IE no new mental model is created (it is already
“known” data).</span><span></span></p><p><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">If
there is no mental model to </span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">be </span><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">use</span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">d</span><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%"> for IE, the consciousness tries
to create a new one (a new concept!) or remember the data as unrecognized, for
example, as is the case with UFOs.</span><span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">The same process may exist based on internal (self-) reflection. I.e.
some mental models may be compared to another and as result a new mental model
(<b>subjective information</b>, <b>a new idea</b>!) may be created and
stored in the long term (<b>semantic</b>, “knowledge”) memory of the brain.</span><span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">Finally, the immaterial is just a subjective mental model(s). From the
empty Universe through the scientific constructions, like the mathematical
“ideal” objects, up to the God, all are mental models in the </span><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">consciousness</span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">, which may
be externalized using corresponding languages.</span><span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">The mental models are absolutely material, they are neurons’
configurations and when the brain dies they are destroyed. </span><span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%"> </span><span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">With respect,</span><span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%">Krassimir</span><span></span></p><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;line-height:normal">
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<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>
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