<html><head></head><body><div class="ydp72232f46yahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:24px;" dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Jason, your beethoven riff is brilliant.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Krassimir, we disagree. </div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">clouds are collections of material things, h2o molecules. but the molecules collect in droplets--groups with an identity any child can see. and that immaterial form of identity recurs all over the planet. the form of the drop. </div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">some societies of droplets are clouds. and they, too, have a group identity. a distinct identity you can see. they are separate from each other. and each has its own outline, though that outline shifts from minute to minute, it still delineates a distinct cloud.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">group identities exist as well in the cells that make up the personalities and beliefs of you and me.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">those group identities persist despite the fact that you and I are replacing billions of cells every day. and despite the fact that we've changed dramatically from babies to toddlers to children to adolescents to adults and now to senior citizens. the matter changes but the identity stays.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">what then is a group identity? is it material or immaterial? it's constituents change, but the identity retains its reality. and its causal power.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">here's something to chew on:</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div></div><blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div class="ydp72232f46yahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:24px;"><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><div><div>called causal emergence. Emergence refers to the appearance of overall behavior in a complex system of many parts that can’t be predicted or understood by focusing just on what those parts themselves are like. That such phenomena occur is beyond doubt. You’ll never fully understand the flocking behavior—called a murmuration—of starlings by probing the workings of the avian mind at the neuronal level, nor will a detailed analysis of car mechanics enable you to decipher how traffic jams form (fig. 5.9).</div><div><br></div><div>Ball, Philip. How Life Works: A User’s Guide to the New Biology (p. 214). University of Chicago Press. Kindle Edition. </div></div><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><div><div>Using a measure called “effective information” to quantify causation, the researchers searched for “informative macroscales” in the networks—situations where a group or cluster of protein-protein interactions could be replaced by a single “macro-node” in the network that does the same job as the collective. Such macro-nodes can be considered autonomous units in producing the observed outcome at the level of the phenotype. It’s a bit like dividing up a population geographically into cities and towns: these are not just arbitrary groupings, but “real things” with discrete and identifiable influences. These macro-nodes will function reliably even if there’s some variability or noise among their component parts. They become genuine causal entities that operate at a higher level of organization: agents of causal emergence.</div><div><br></div><div>Ball, Philip. How Life Works: A User’s Guide to the New Biology (pp. 218-219). University of Chicago Press. Kindle Edition. </div></div><br></div></div></blockquote><br><div class="ydp72232f46yahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:24px;"><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span>with warmth and oomph--howard</span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br><blockquote style="padding-left:10px;border-left:2px solid #0f69ff;margin-left:20px"><div style="font-size:large;" class="ydp72232f46yiv8448363184gmail_default">Dear Krassimir, </div><div style="font-size:large;" class="ydp72232f46yiv8448363184gmail_default"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-size:large;" class="ydp72232f46yiv8448363184gmail_default">Your principle is interesing, but, are you going to fire all the priests and pastors and clergymen and preachers...and all their Bible Study Group heads? 😁😁😁 </div><div style="font-size:large;" class="ydp72232f46yiv8448363184gmail_default">Re the topic of materiality versus immateriality, consider this scenario:</div><div style="font-size:large;" class="ydp72232f46yiv8448363184gmail_default"><ol><li>Something emerges within the brain of Beethoven.</li><li>He grabbed his music sheets and wrote something on them.</li><li>Those sheets were sent to a publisher.</li><li>The published scores were bought by a group of musicians.</li><li>The musicians fussed around with their instruments according to those scores.</li><li>Their instruments caused the air in the hall to vibrate like crazy.</li><li>The air in the hall strikes your eardrum.</li><li>The neurons in your ear send electric pulses to your brain.</li><li>Your brain caused your skin to show some goosebumps.</li><li> And in your brain emerges a thought... ah ah, Beethoven!</li></ol><div>In the above 10 steps, what on earth is that "thing" being passed from one form to another... material or immaterial, or both, or neither?</div><div>Best - Jason</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div></div>
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On Monday, March 10, 2025 at 12:18:00 PM EDT, Jason Hu <jasonthegoodman@gmail.com> wrote:
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<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><div id="ydp647d5d6yiv8448363184"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size:large;" class="ydp647d5d6yiv8448363184gmail_default">Dear Krassimir, </div><div style="font-size:large;" class="ydp647d5d6yiv8448363184gmail_default"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-size:large;" class="ydp647d5d6yiv8448363184gmail_default">Your principle is interesing, but, are you going to fire all the priests and pastors and clergymen and preachers...and all their Bible Study Group heads? 😁😁😁 </div><div style="font-size:large;" class="ydp647d5d6yiv8448363184gmail_default">Re the topic of materiality versus immateriality, consider this scenario:</div><div style="font-size:large;" class="ydp647d5d6yiv8448363184gmail_default"><ol><li>Something emerges within the brain of Beethoven.</li><li>He grabbed his music sheets and wrote something on them.</li><li>Those sheets were sent to a publisher.</li><li>The published scores were bought by a group of musicians.</li><li>The musicians fussed around with their instruments according to those scores.</li><li>Their instruments caused the air in the hall to vibrate like crazy.</li><li>The air in the hall strikes your eardrum.</li><li>The neurons in your ear send electric pulses to your brain.</li><li>Your brain caused your skin to show some goosebumps.</li><li> And in your brain emerges a thought... ah ah, Beethoven!</li></ol><div>In the above 10 steps, what on earth is that "thing" being passed from one form to another... material or immaterial, or both, or neither?</div><div>Best - Jason</div></div><div style="font-size:large;" class="ydp647d5d6yiv8448363184gmail_default"><br clear="none"></div></div><br clear="none"><div class="ydp647d5d6yiv8448363184gmail_quote ydp647d5d6yiv8448363184gmail_quote_container"><div id="ydp647d5d6yiv8448363184yqtfd51482" class="ydp647d5d6yiv8448363184yqt0724557137"><div dir="ltr" class="ydp647d5d6yiv8448363184gmail_attr">On Mon, Mar 10, 2025 at 5:01 AM Krassimir Markov <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">itheaiss@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;" class="ydp647d5d6yiv8448363184gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr"><font size="4">Dear Marcus,<br clear="none">Thank you for your words and your willingness to develop our ideas together. I like to work with colleagues when I have free time for this. Such collaboration usually gives good results. As an example, I can cite my collaboration with Mark Burgin, which led to the creation of a dual theory of mine, which naturally complements it by presenting a model that further develops the Theory of Reflections.<br clear="none">Unfortunately, this year is too busy for me to be able to devote time to in-depth collaboration. There are many scientific events coming up, at the center of which I am also, and this prevents me from concentrating on systematic collaboration.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Dear Howard,<br clear="none">You introduced your mental model by saying:<br clear="none">“if information and mental models are configurations of material things--neurons--then the configurations are yet another example of the material power of immaterial things.<br clear="none">The configurations are immaterial."</font><div><font size="4"><br clear="none">There are two approaches to mental models - religious and scientific. </font></div><div><font size="4">In the first, it is enough to believe in order to perceive them, while in the second, experimental data are needed. I adhere to the scientific approach.</font></div><div><font size="4"><br clear="none">If you do not have such data and/or cannot give at least an example showing the immateriality of configurations, then your model belongs to religion.<br clear="none">The colleagues on the FIS list know my principle well -<br clear="none">"Belief should be believed, not discussed!"<br clear="none">Therefore, if you do not have scientific arguments, we will have to stop there.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">With respect,<br clear="none">Krassimir</font><br clear="none"></div></div><div id="ydp647d5d6yiv8448363184m_4290274843470237242DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br clear="none"><table style="border-top:1px solid rgb(211,212,222);"><tbody><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" style="width:55px;padding-top:13px;"><a shape="rect" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WT2Fc9fFrRKjIKUeuxHJKfd0b2ywOHuYv3vtXnqgYKu1mEMFJPrqgddwC861WVXdn1a5Ync0Hbv7dFyl-cs$" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"><img src="https://s-install.avcdn.net/ipm/preview/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width:46px;min-height:29px;" data-inlineimagemanipulating="true"></a></td><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" style="width:470px;padding-top:12px;color:rgb(65,66,78);font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;line-height:18px;">Virus-free.<a shape="rect" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WT2Fc9fFrRKjIKUeuxHJKfd0b2ywOHuYv3vtXnqgYKu1mEMFJPrqgddwC861WVXdn1a5Ync0Hbv7dFyl-cs$" style="color:rgb(68,83,234);" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">www.avast.com</a></td></tr></tbody></table><a shape="rect" href="#m_4290274843470237242_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a></div><br clear="none"><div class="ydp647d5d6yiv8448363184gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="ydp647d5d6yiv8448363184gmail_attr">На пн, 10.03.2025 г. в 1:57 Howard Bloom <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">howlbloom@aol.com</a>> написа:<br clear="none"></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;" class="ydp647d5d6yiv8448363184gmail_quote"><div><div style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:24px;"><div></div>
<div dir="ltr">interesting thoughts, krassimir. well worth pondering.</div><div dir="ltr"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr">one note. if information and mental models are configurations of material things--neurons--then the configurations are yet another example of the material power of immaterial things.</div><div dir="ltr"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"><span><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif;color:black;letter-spacing:-0.25pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;"> The configurations are immaterial.</span></span><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"><span><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif;color:black;letter-spacing:-0.25pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;"><br clear="none"></span></span></div><div dir="ltr"><span><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Verdana, sans-serif;color:black;letter-spacing:-0.25pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;"><span>with warmth and oomph--howard</span><br clear="none"></span></span></div><div dir="ltr"><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div>
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On Sunday, March 9, 2025 at 05:04:16 AM EDT, Krassimir Markov <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">itheaiss@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
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<p><span style="font-size:14pt;"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">Dear Howard,</span><span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">You wrote:</span><span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">"... but I’m curious to hear your reason for not using information
as the term for all immaterial mysteries."</span><span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">Here is my answer:</span><span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;"> </span><span></span></p><p><b><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">The Information definition as it is in the General
Information Theory (GIT)</span></b><span></span></p><p><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">We
perceive </span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">(reflect) <b>reality</b></span><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;"> through our sensors, after which </span><b><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">reflections
(data) </span></b><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">pass
through the sensory memory and enter the temporary memory of the brain. It is
here that our consciousness has already prepared a corresponding mental model</span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;"> loaded
from long term memory (Information Expectation,” IE”)</span><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">, through which we will recognize the
data. Only after </span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">data is</span><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;"> recognized and connected to </span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">the
information expectation</span><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">, the data, together with the part of the </span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">IE </span><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">with which </span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">it is</span><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;"> connected (<b>meaning</b>!),
are perceived as information. That is, only at this stage</span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">, </span><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">we will have </span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">mental model,
which is </span><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">“information”.</span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;"> In
other words, <b>information is</b> <b>data with meaning</b>. The
information may be stored in the long term memory as a new mental model
(usually called “<b>knowledge</b>”).</span><span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">If data is equal to the IE no new mental model is created (it is already
“known” data).</span><span></span></p><p><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">If
there is no mental model to </span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">be </span><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">use</span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">d</span><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;"> for IE, the consciousness tries
to create a new one (a new concept!) or remember the data as unrecognized, for
example, as is the case with UFOs.</span><span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">The same process may exist based on internal (self-) reflection. I.e.
some mental models may be compared to another and as result a new mental model
(<b>subjective information</b>, <b>a new idea</b>!) may be created and
stored in the long term (<b>semantic</b>, “knowledge”) memory of the brain.</span><span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">Finally, the immaterial is just a subjective mental model(s). From the
empty Universe through the scientific constructions, like the mathematical
“ideal” objects, up to the God, all are mental models in the </span><span lang="BG" style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">consciousness</span><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">, which may
be externalized using corresponding languages.</span><span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">The mental models are absolutely material, they are neurons’
configurations and when the brain dies they are destroyed. </span><span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;"> </span><span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">With respect,</span><span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:115%;">Krassimir</span><span></span></p><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;">
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</div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>Fis mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>----------<br>INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br><br>Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br><a href="http://listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>----------<div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>__________________________</div><div>Howard Bloom</div><div>The Howard Bloom Institute</div><div><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://howardbloom.institute__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QoVUuAXt7PT8Ji82pl2Dia1ltzesquKnSmgS3rqNdoaANWYyONUA8rRn12CF1RpdTo3Won4DeXbetJM93A$">https://howardbloom.institute</a></div><div>Author of: The Case of the Sexual Cosmos: Everything You Know About Nature is Wrong, coming March, 2025 ("A massive achievement, WOW!" Richard Foreman, MacArthur Genius Award Winner, Officer of the Order of Arts & Letters, France)</div><div>Previous books: The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of History ("mesmerizing"-The Washington Post), </div><div>Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From The Big Bang to the 21st Century ("reassuring and sobering"-The New Yorker),</div><div>The Genius of the Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of Capitalism ("A tremendously enjoyable book." James Fallows, National Correspondent, The Atlantic), </div><div>The God Problem: How A Godless Cosmos Creates ("Bloom's argument will rock your world." Barbara Ehrenreich),</div><div>How I Accidentally Started the Sixties (“Wow! Whew! Wild! Wonderful!” Timothy Leary),</div><div>The Mohammed Code (“A terrifying book…the best book I’ve read on Islam.” David Swindle, PJ Media),</div><div>Einstein, Michael Jackson & Me: a Search for Soul in the Power Pits of Rock & Roll ("Amazing. The writing is revelatory." Freddy DeMann, manager of Michael Jackson and Madonna), Best Book of 2020, New York Weekly Times </div><div><br></div><div>A Quartz Magazine Pro</div><div>Professor of Practice, Kepler Space University </div><div>Co-founder, The Asian Space Technology Summit</div><div>Former Visiting Scholar, Graduate Psychology Department, New York University, Former Core Faculty Member, The Graduate Institute; </div><div>Founder: International Paleopsychology Project. Founder, Space Development Steering Committee. Member Of Board Of Governors, National Space Society. Founding Board Member: Epic of Evolution Society. Founding Board Member, The Darwin Project.</div><div><br></div><div>BRIC-TV's 66-minute film, The Grand Unified Theory of Howard Bloom, <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atYmiEZ6YDU__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QoVUuAXt7PT8Ji82pl2Dia1ltzesquKnSmgS3rqNdoaANWYyONUA8rRn12CF1RpdTo3Won4DeXYK1fPeOQ$">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atYmiEZ6YDU</a></div><div>Best Picture, Science Design Film Festival. Best Documentary Feature, Not Film Festival, Italy. Available on Apple TV, Amazon, Google Play, Microsoft, Vimeo, Vudu, and Fandango.</div><div><br></div></div><br></div>
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