<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear Karl,<div class="">I agree with Alex. We see that, as Penrose pointed out, that a consideration of Goedel’s results shows that non-conscious entities equipped to act by some explicit set of rules are either inconsistent or incomplete if they are rich enough to have arithmetic.</div><div class="">Hey! Listen! I did not do any fancy argument beyond Goedel here.</div><div class="">A formal system or Turing machine is by definition a non-conscious entity equipped to act by some explicit set of rules.</div><div class="">Goedel proved that such formal systems, if rich enough to handle arithmetic, are either inconsistent or incomplete.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">As for you, maybe you are inconsistent. But if you are consistent then you can’t be just a Turing machine because you can be conscious of proving the </div><div class="">Goedel Theorem. Whatever consciousness, the ability to reason and comprehend, is, it is not a production of Turing machines. It is not a production of non-conscious entities equipped to act by some explicit set of rules.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">But its ok you know. </div><div class="">Try it out for yourself. </div><div class="">Maybe you are just a bundle of rules. </div><div class="">Maybe the words you say when you refer to yourself, are just indicational symbols like my indicative shift.</div><div class="">A —> B</div><div class="">Shifts to </div><div class="">#A —> AB</div><div class="">So if</div><div class="">M —> #</div><div class="">Then</div><div class="">#M —> #M.</div><div class="">Saying I is just a pointer.</div><div class="">Getting to see the Pythagorean theorem as true is just a collection of pointers that obtain an “agreement symbol” from the computational system.</div><div class="">You see. </div><div class="">You are nothing but a bundle of rules acting on each other.</div><div class="">And how do “know” that?</div><div class="">How do you know?</div><div class="">How?</div><div class="">Where is your knowledge built?</div><div class="">From something?</div><div class="">Really?</div><div class="">There is nothing to hold that knowledge.</div><div class="">There is nothing.</div><div class="">Not one thing.</div><div class="">Consciousness is not an epiphenomenon of non-conscious things.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">But I did not intend to get on a soapbox.</div><div class="">The point is to keep looking at every single item that occurs in your “consciousness” and particularly to look at how things work and how they are built.</div><div class="">And you have to see that we just do not know anything.</div><div class="">Just look.</div><div class=""><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tumblr.com/the-wolf-and-moon/773473627065729024/m104-sombrero-galaxy?redirect_to=*the-wolf-and-moon*773473627065729024*m104-sombrero-galaxy&source=blog_view_login_wall__;Ly8v!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RN-AkUcUBytK8rPPqgsYoZvJiEHMkCr9HRl5oyz31-CCq-egXdSKyLiYEU6-MMv7w3OE1AF4XWz8t9dL$" class="">https://www.tumblr.com/the-wolf-and-moon/773473627065729024/m104-sombrero-galaxy?redirect_to=%2Fthe-wolf-and-moon%2F773473627065729024%2Fm104-sombrero-galaxy&source=blog_view_login_wall</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Best,</div><div class="">Lou</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 27, 2025, at 11:25 PM, Alex Hankey <<a href="mailto:alexhankey@gmail.com" class="">alexhankey@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta charset="UTF-8" class=""><div dir="ltr" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: "times new roman", serif; font-size: large; color: rgb(11, 83, 148);">Karl,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: "times new roman", serif; font-size: large; color: rgb(11, 83, 148);">I am simply astonished that an intellectual of your quality<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: "times new roman", serif; font-size: large; color: rgb(11, 83, 148);">is capable of such a statement. You do not flatter yourself </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: "times new roman", serif; font-size: large; color: rgb(11, 83, 148);">by being flippant about a subject, on which you are </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: "times new roman", serif; font-size: large; color: rgb(11, 83, 148);">obviously as blithely ignorant as, say, Daniel Dennett.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: "times new roman", serif; font-size: large; color: rgb(11, 83, 148);">I suggest that you consider:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: "times new roman", serif; font-size: large; color: rgb(11, 83, 148);">1. The depth of knowledge in the ancient Indian Sciences<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: "times new roman", serif; font-size: large; color: rgb(11, 83, 148);">and their astonishing accuracy in many subject areas.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: "times new roman", serif; font-size: large; color: rgb(11, 83, 148);">2. The centrality of 'consciousness-qua-consciousness' to </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: "times new roman", serif; font-size: large; color: rgb(11, 83, 148);">their whole system, and the brilliant, penetrating statements<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: "times new roman", serif; font-size: large; color: rgb(11, 83, 148);">that they made concerning it in their various </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: "times new roman", serif; font-size: large; color: rgb(11, 83, 148);">'Systems of Philosophy'.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: "times new roman", serif; font-size: large; color: rgb(11, 83, 148);">Respectfully,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: "times new roman", serif; font-size: large; color: rgb(11, 83, 148);">Alex Hankey<br class=""></div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 28 Jan 2025 at 09:27, Karl Javorszky <<a href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" class="">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">Well, it depends on one's fascination by food, birds, cats, paintings, poetry or dancing, or any other personal preference, what is "important" in one's eyes.<div dir="auto" class="">Your opinion is </div><div dir="auto" class=""><span style="font-size: 12.8px;" class=""> the far more interesting question is, "What self-referencing procedure produces consciousness??" </span></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div></div>In your opinion, consciousness is a subject that raises your engagement. For others, it is sex, speaking dirty, desecration of holy items or simply being irreverent against authority or something else, that is far more interesting than consciousness. <div dir="auto" class="">What makes you eroticized about consciousness? (was it an additional thrill that Mme Pelicot was unconscious while being raped?) </div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">What is the difference between an unconscious and an alert person? Specifically in terms of physics or data processing, is it of interest whether the janitor in the building where the database is working, is drunk, high or sober like a judge of peace? </div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Please elaborate on your feelings for unconscious, as opposed to conscious things, machines, natural phenomena or cybernetic dependencies. </div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Karl </div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Alex Hankey <<a href="mailto:alexhankey@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">alexhankey@gmail.com</a>> schrieb am Di., 28. Jän. 2025, 02:48:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir="auto" class="">But Karl, the far more interesting question is, "What self-referencing procedure produces consciousness??" <div dir="auto" class="">It is not achievable by any procedure that involves classical physics, and your procedures (and von Neumann's, as far as I can tell) only require classical physics for their implementation. </div><div dir="auto" class="">Best wishes to all, </div><div dir="auto" class="">Alex </div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 27 Jan, 2025, 15:11 Karl Javorszky, <<a href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir="auto" class="">Dear Lou,<div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">You assert:</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><span style="font-size: 12.8px;" class="">"If you wish to have an actual self-referential entity such as yourself, there is at present no schema the can be filled in to produce it."<br class=""></span><br class="">The task of creating a self-referential entity can be solved by using the collection of all forms of the sentence <div dir="auto" class=""><i class="">a + b = c</i>, with<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">a, b <= 16, a <= b</i>. This is called the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">etalon collection<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>and is 136 elements strong. </div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">If the collection is in order alfabeta, a change into order gammadelta is a self-referencing procedure. </div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">One needs only to reorder 12 books from author - title into title - author orders (these are the alfabeta resp gammadelta orders). </div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">The existence or not of an observer, and whether the observer is alive or clairvoyant, is irrelevant. </div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">The self-referencing quality of assemblies of which the members are related to each other is a logical consequence of the elements being related to each other. This is why the phenomenon can't be present on assemblies of more than 136 integer, or equivalent to that, 137.03.... as a non-integer value of consistency of the assembly. </div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">The self-referencing quality of members of groups is available for us in the form of a numeric table, in which the value of belonging to a group or not, is a numeric constant. The sentence<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">a + b = c</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>implicates many rules about self-referencing in closed groups. The cross-section of time can be agreed to be less than infinite in extent, leaving diplomatically the question unanswered, whether anything in Nature can be of an infinite extent. The "now" is within the Eddington habitat and is a closed collection. The system of self-referencing rules is what we call Nature. </div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Karl </div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=""><span class="gmail_signature_prefix"><br class=""></span></div><div class=""><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><span style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse;" class=""><span style="font-family: "times new roman", serif; font-size: large; color: rgb(11, 83, 148);" class=""></span>Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD</span><span style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(M.I.T.) DSc. (Hon Causa) </span><span style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse;" class="">Professor Emeritus of Biology,</span><div class=""><span style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse;" class="">MIT World Peace University, </span></div><div class=""><span style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse;" class="">124 Paud Road, Pune, MA 411038 </span></div><div class=""><span style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse;" class="">Mobile (Intn'l): +44 7710 534195 </span><span style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse;" class=""></span><div class=""><span style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse;" class="">Mobile (India) +91 900 800 8789 </span></div><div class=""><span style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse;" class="">WhatsApp: as for Mobile, India</span></div><div class=""><span style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse;" class=""><div style="font-size: 12.8px;" class="">_________________________</div></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>