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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear FIS Colleagues,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Thanks are due to Lou for his new
inspiring comments on the "subject" problem, and to Joseph for his
supportive arguments. Thinking again on the "subject", I wonder it
might be a consequence on the way we communicate in many branches
of human thought, in science, including swaths of maths and
logics: via narratives. It may look clearer in the works of
Literature: a novel has a "narrator", someone who watches the
events and the characters, usually endowed with a variety of
mental powers even to enter into other parties' minds, to easily
travel in time and space, etc. The narrator, the "observer" was
assumed to be more and more capable as novels progressed during
last Centuries... Is this quasi-omniscient subject a necessary
constraint of "narratives", either literary or scientific? My
impression is that this observer or "subject", in our discussion,
has been progressively imbued in modern thought with those
abstract, unlimited prowesses of clean, rigorous 'distinctional'
capabilities--or whatever... Maybe it historically took off as
indirectly supporting the vaunted 'unlimited power of reason'
claimed by Enlightenment thinkers (!). I recently compiled quite a
few instance of individual and collective limitations of our
thought--better leaving them for another day.<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">If there is some cogency above, then a
condition of our narrative communication has taken a life of its
own, and contributed to system logics often quite powerful in
sci-tech fields, but somehow beyond real happenstances,
particularly of our own heads/minds real workings, bringing
endless sterile controversies. One could find this quite
reasonable (Joseph), that system logics could be arranged in
different ways without the implicit and explicit strictures of
such "rationality". For instance, dropping exactitude and
rigorously defined properties one is lead or reminded of Fuzzy
Logic (Lofti Zadeh). Am sure numerous other instances exist.<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">We are cellular creatures. Our own
"crystalline" distinctions appear after endless sensorimotor
processes that start with molecular-recognition instances in
thousands of receptor cells. We are biassed creatures, not quite
"rational agents", as economists have discovered in recent
decades. And we are biassed by our own evolutionary history of
adaptability and ontogenetic-cultural social learning. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">To conclude, I think the micro and the
macro have a connecting thread, say like the quantum and the
cosmological. And therefore, the microcognition of logic would
insensibly cascade into fields of far larger extension, into the
social, the economic, the political, and even the crisis of our
times. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Best--Pedro</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><b>MODERATION NOTE</b>: Count your
weekly messages please (2-3 posts from Early Monday to Late
Sunday, international business week). Infractions should be
discounted from next week. And do not go, please, beyond the size
limits of the server: today there was 10 messages beyond size, of
course, none was entered!!<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">-------------------------------------------------------------</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">El 25/01/2025 a las 18:03, Louis
Kauffman escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:79FF7224-2F19-49DB-96E6-5CAF2E5E5B47@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
Dear Pedro,
<div class="">I would like to speak to your question again.</div>
<div class="">You ask about the nature of the subject/person (in
the LoF dialogue and/or beyond that discussion).</div>
<div class="">Certainly that book and our discussions in language
presuppose a subject like us who can read and reason and make
distinctions as we make them. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">We also look out on our worlds and see other makers
of distinctions in a wider sense of the term - Bacteria,
Eukaryotes, Multicellulars, Mammals and their Central Nervous
System, and so on. And we are always looking at these through
our own eyes, and thinking about the autonomy of such subjects.
Indeed we think about and work with and live in our world
recognizing the autonomy of other human subjects.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">And we know that our language is a communal
construction.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Yet we each, perhaps as a construction of that
language, adhere to the notion of a personal subject.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">So the nature of “personal subject” is something
that we can each explore and possibly communally via language
and community.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In the book LoF and in the literature of cybernetics
there is talk of the “observer”, as though we knew what this
meant.</div>
<div class="">We do not know.</div>
<div class="">And not knowing, we can regard this notion as
subject (sic) for research.</div>
<div class="">To ask about the nature of the observer is the same
(I suggest) as to ask about the nature of distinction.</div>
<div class="">Best,</div>
<div class="">Lou</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jan 23, 2025, at 1:30 PM, Pedro C. Marijuán
<<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<title class="">Re: [Fis] "Percepts" and self-reference
and meaning - [chaotic issues]</title>
<div class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Lou and FIS
Colleagues,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br class="">
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Let me ask you just a
couple of questions on the subject implicit in your
distinction scheme. I assume it is human, an
enlightened logician. And this person makes use of an
unfettered system of perception --jumping then from
percepts to concepts, as you say, and achieving a
higher state of consciousness and problem solving via
emptiness and the Heart Sutra. Right? No thought
collective instances are intervening or involved, at
least directly. And no ostensible limitations are
precluding advancement of thought... And about other
possible 'distinctional' subjects, i.e. non-human
subjects --Bacteria? Eukaryotes? Multicellulars?
Mammals and their Central Nervous System?</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br class="">
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">One could state, too
succinctly, that any of these living entities have
adapted to their niche by abducing or intercepting ad
hoc information flows, which in the basis become sort
of molecular-recognition distinctions that are
processed in successive steps and finally elaborated
into meanings that adaptively change the ongoing
behavior and selfproduction processes. So... it is
about surviving via the information flows adaptively
catched from the niche, which in the human case is a
social niche. <br class="">
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br class="">
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Further, we humans have
developed an amazing knowledge system of several
thousand disciplines, where distinctions pile up on
distinctions, assembled into theoretical constructs,
experimental methods and multifarious approaches. The
actual ways and means to move within that gigantic
tangle have been pragmatism, traditions, and
bureaucracy. Lots of the latter as we know well from
the institutions in charge of knowledge handling.
Right. But nowadays we have a new invitee to the
chaotic "Fiesta of Knowledge": AI. <br class="">
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br class="">
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">In what extent this new
invitee will get free of the most conspicuous
knowledge limitations of our individual minds? What
kind of information flows will enter into its gut and
what kind of new 'meanings' will be produced?
Unfortunately, almost nobody is interested in the
nuclear matter that has forced us into a Babel of
spattering disciplines, into unending
explanatory/'translatory' exchanges: our entrenched
cognizing limitations. We prefer, and take refuge
into, the security of the well-framed 'microscope'. <br
class="">
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br class="">
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I assume this at the other
extreme of logical underpinnings, sorry, but in my
eyes it has some relation...</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br class="">
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Best--Pedro<br class="">
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br class="">
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">El 20/01/2025 a las 8:46,
Louis Kauffman escribió:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:C90CC866-9B74-4902-95E9-FCF48731EB22@gmail.com" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
Dear Jason,
<div class="">I have already answered this in some
other ways, but lets try again.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Diagrams</div>
<div class="">(a) A diagram is not particularly
static. It could be a movie or an injunction to make
a movie.</div>
<div class="">It could be a dance or a ritual, a
temple or a war.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">That is how you might view the diagrams
about topology of DNA recombination.</div>
<div class="">And it is in that mode that diagrammatic
work and the possibility of creating a diagram from
the “microword” by electron microscopy, led to the
understandings about </div>
<div class="">Knotted DNA and topological enzymes.
These in turn have had an effect at some medical
levels since if your topo enzymes do not work, your
cells cannot divide and you die.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.excedr.com/resources/topoisomerase-overview*:*:text=In*20pharmaceuticals*2C*20topoisomerases*20are*20used,anticancer*20therapeutics*20other*20than*20chemotherapy__;I34lJSUlJSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VN3_KOI3NVnHHrQCUBhk-CmKe_3eXVjVC6CDnsTgT_aqTDe_YRSaOTbYTVnZXUUn-RfO2h_ygvadEF65$"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.excedr.com/resources/topoisomerase-overview#:~:text=In%20pharmaceuticals%2C%20topoisomerases%20are%20used,anticancer%20therapeutics%20other%20than%20chemotherapy</a>.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">So here you have a real example of how
diagrammatic topological mathematics is closely
allied with applications that can save lives.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">(b) For the design of quantum algorithms
and all things quantum field theoretic we use
diagrams quite intensively.</div>
<div class="">The same is true for working out the
reactions that lead to the bomb. So diagrams can
also be used to kill en masse, as can all of
language.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">(c) Written language is a work of
diagrams. Those little characters you string
together are stylized diagrams, rather static by
themselves. And if you live in China or Japan your </div>
<div class="">Language is an incredible pastiche of
diagrams.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">(d) Actually all of mathematics is a
pastiche of diagrams for all sorts of conceptual and
calculational purposes.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">(e) I refer you to C.S. Peirce for the
role of diagrams and signs in thought.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">(f) The greatest masters of diagrams in
Cybernetics were Strafford Beer and Humberto
Maturana. Perhaps you see some value in their work.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">(f) The GUI that began with Mac and
infiltrated PC is the </div>
<div class="">diagrams of finitely nested boxes </div>
<div class="">that are the basis of the distinctions
and indications of LOF.</div>
<div class="">LOF is about distinctions and
indications. </div>
<div class="">Its diagrams are just a particular
representation of that. </div>
<div class="">Mac uses these diagrams and never had to
pay any royalties to GSB.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Religion</div>
<div class="">(g) The Heart Sutra explains clearly how
to use the unmarked state (emptiness) to solve all
human problems. </div>
<div class="">That it has not been applied to this end
is not the fault of either GSB or the Buddha.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">(h) I am aware that no matter what I
say, </div>
<div class="">someone will complain </div>
<div class="">about something </div>
<div class="">that comes up for them </div>
<div class="">when we get near to no-thing. </div>
<div class="">That is the nature of it.</div>
<div class="">Believe it or not, </div>
<div class="">I am not an advocate of the absolute
binary distinction. </div>
<div class="">It is in contrast to what cannot be
said.</div>
<div class="">See the quote below that fell into my
email from Malcolm Dean.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<blockquote
style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class="">
<blockquote
style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=""><span
style="font-size: x-small; font-style: italic;" class=""><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?id=oI9hwgEACAAJ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VN3_KOI3NVnHHrQCUBhk-CmKe_3eXVjVC6CDnsTgT_aqTDe_YRSaOTbYTVnZXUUn-RfO2h_yggIa9BkE$"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://books.google.com/books?id=oI9hwgEACAAJ</a>
</span><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bleuje.com/mp4set/2019/2019_25.mp4__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VN3_KOI3NVnHHrQCUBhk-CmKe_3eXVjVC6CDnsTgT_aqTDe_YRSaOTbYTVnZXUUn-RfO2h_ygkOzwPOE$"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">GIF by <span
class="gmail-il">Etienne</span> <span
class="gmail-il">Jacob</span></a><i class=""> used
to illustrate Bits forming an Information
process.</i><br
class="gmail-Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">"The <b class="">tentative and
non-black-and-white nature of categorization</b> is
inevitable, and yet <b class="">the act of
categorization often feels perfectly
definite and absolute</b> to the
categorizer, since many of our most familiar
categories seem on first glance to have <b
class="">precise and sharp boundaries</b>,
and this naïve impression is encouraged by the
fact that people’s everyday, run-of-the mill
use of words is seldom questioned; in fact,
every <b class="">culture constantly, although
tacitly, reinforces the impression that
words are simply automatic labels that come
naturally to mind and that belong
intrinsically to things and entities</b>. If
a category has fringe members, they are made
to seem extremely quirky and unnatural,
suggesting that nature is really <b class="">cut
precisely at the joints by the categories
that we know</b>. The resulting illusory
sense of the <b class="">near-perfect
certainty and clarity of categories</b> gives
rise to much confusion about categories and
the mental processes that underlie
categorization. The idea that category
membership always comes in shades of gray
rather than in just black and white <b
class="">runs strongly against ancient
cultural conventions</b>and is therefore
disorienting and even disturbing; accordingly,
it gets swept under the rug most of the
time." </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div class="">(i) Oh, and what did you think Hofstader
was about?</div>
<div class="">Did you think that he was bragging about
the clarity and perfection of logic? </div>
<div class="">He was telling you the story of how
logic in the hands of human understanding</div>
<div class="">slayed the Jabberwock of the
completeness of formality.</div>
<div class="">Don’t worry. You are not the only one
who did not listen.</div>
<div class="">We sell you fake word makers to do your
job.</div>
<div class="">And in the year of our T, you can buy
cryptocurrency, watches and bibles from your
leader.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><i class="ydp72b1ecb8yiv5762753745">"<a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks01/0100021.txt__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VN3_KOI3NVnHHrQCUBhk-CmKe_3eXVjVC6CDnsTgT_aqTDe_YRSaOTbYTVnZXUUn-RfO2h_yglukToEj$"
class="ydp72b1ecb8yiv5762753745" target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer noopener" moz-do-not-send="true">It
was one of those pictures</a> which are so
contrived that the eyes follow you about when you
move."</i></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Best,</div>
<div class="">Lou</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
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