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<span style="font-size: 13pt;">It is beginning to sound as if we are studying LoF and GSB as reality ("diagrams can move") and living processes as the model. I thought it was supposed to be the other way around. Deacon might call this the new Golem.</span>
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<span style="font-size: 13pt;">Best,</span>
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<span style="font-size: 13pt;">Joseph </span>
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Le 24.01.2025 01:05 CET, Louis Kauffman <loukau@gmail.com> a écrit :
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Dear Mark,
</div> GSB’s diagrams are intended for “digital circuitry” (maybe transcendental digital circuitry!) and we use them that way with a possible assignment of a “time delay” across the mark. The “signal” that traverses the mark in the diagram undergoes a flip from value A to value <A> (cross A).
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In the usual interpretation we have only the values marked and unmarked happening at the lines in the diagrams. Already this is very rich. People including myself have used these diagrams more generally so that the mark is a black box, or a more general boundary and the signals running through are also more complex. At that point the diagram could actually be any directed graph with various interpretations for its parts. Stafford is advocating using directed graphs to indicate flow of information or goods or spirituality or … and all this is close to very general descriptions of the systems. Some people like to restrict to just Spencer-Brown type boundaries and indicate how boundaries are crossed between different sometimes nested domains. You will see this is in Dirk Baecker’s work. Diagrams can have many interpretations and one does not need to speak as though these interpretations are necessarily implicit in say Spencer-Brown from the beginning.
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I believe that the correct understanding is that what Spencer-Brown shows us, the structure that he shows us and that we can develop further if we wish, is inherent in any and all indicative domains. LoF is about the structure of indication. And it is obliquely therefore about what cannot be indicated. One cannot make an indication without drawing a distinction.
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But when you start asking questions in the form "In GSB transduction must happen "in the line" of the mark. In not specifying exactly what is going on there, is GSB saying that the transduction occurs in the observer? (and so doesn't need to be shown on the page?)” you are making a mistake of a peculiar kind. YOU are the one who wishes to make indications about transduction! If you find that it fits to be “on the line” fine do that. If you wish to understand the relationship with the observer, fine do that. It is ALL your responsibility and ALL your creation!
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Best,
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Lou
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On Jan 23, 2025, at 12:30 PM, Mark Johnson <<a class="" href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
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Dear Lou and Joe,
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It's interesting, Lou, that you raise Stafford Beer's diagrams, because these have an intimate connection to GSB (by virtue of the Beer's facilitation of LoF). Beer's tribute to GSB is in his archive in Liverpool - a children's story called "Kate gets a Bird" (example picture here - <a class="" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com/2025/01/beers-tribute-to-laws-of-form.html__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TNNYlF-xIeqWejYdErsPZLIDVoq_mT3DDX9OSFxyuuci7pFcBMD3gOASdl8nvL9BjFtYY6X2ICBZgnc4$">Improvisation Blog: Beer's Tribute to Laws of Form</a>).
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What's different between Beer's diagrams and GSB is that Beer draws the transducers in his diagrams as lines between boxes, converting variety from one form to another. In GSM transduction is presumably the mechanism by which the unmarked becomes marked. For Beer, transduction always infers amplification and attenuation of variety. It's just that GSB doesn't show it.
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In GSB transduction must happen "in the line" of the mark. In not specifying exactly what is going on there, is GSB saying that the transduction occurs in the observer? (and so doesn't need to be shown on the page?)
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However, if we could zoom-in on a line/mark, we would probably encounter transducers within transducers within transducers - like Beer's diagrams. That, it seems to me, is a "moving picture". I'm not sure it's the kind of moving picture that Joe or Lupasco would approve of, but it is dynamic - particularly when taken together with the form of the mark itself.
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Any thoughts?
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Best wishes
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Mark
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On Mon, 20 Jan 2025 at 07:47, Louis Kauffman <<a class="" href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com">loukau@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
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Dear Jason,
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I have already answered this in some other ways, but lets try again.
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Diagrams
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(a) A diagram is not particularly static. It could be a movie or an injunction to make a movie.
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It could be a dance or a ritual, a temple or a war.
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That is how you might view the diagrams about topology of DNA recombination.
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And it is in that mode that diagrammatic work and the possibility of creating a diagram from the “microword” by electron microscopy, led to the understandings about
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Knotted DNA and topological enzymes. These in turn have had an effect at some medical levels since if your topo enzymes do not work, your cells cannot divide and you die.
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<a class="" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.excedr.com/resources/topoisomerase-overview*:*:text=In*20pharmaceuticals*2C*20topoisomerases*20are*20used,anticancer*20therapeutics*20other*20than*20chemotherapy__;I34lJSUlJSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VN3_KOI3NVnHHrQCUBhk-CmKe_3eXVjVC6CDnsTgT_aqTDe_YRSaOTbYTVnZXUUn-RfO2h_ygvadEF65$" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://www.excedr.com/resources/topoisomerase-overview#:~:text=In%20pharmaceuticals%2C%20topoisomerases%20are%20used,anticancer%20therapeutics%20other%20than%20chemotherapy</a>.
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So here you have a real example of how diagrammatic topological mathematics is closely allied with applications that can save lives.
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(b) For the design of quantum algorithms and all things quantum field theoretic we use diagrams quite intensively.
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The same is true for working out the reactions that lead to the bomb. So diagrams can also be used to kill en masse, as can all of language.
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(c) Written language is a work of diagrams. Those little characters you string together are stylized diagrams, rather static by themselves. And if you live in China or Japan your
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Language is an incredible pastiche of diagrams.
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(d) Actually all of mathematics is a pastiche of diagrams for all sorts of conceptual and calculational purposes.
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(e) I refer you to C.S. Peirce for the role of diagrams and signs in thought.
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(f) The greatest masters of diagrams in Cybernetics were Strafford Beer and Humberto Maturana. Perhaps you see some value in their work.
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(f) The GUI that began with Mac and infiltrated PC is the
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diagrams of finitely nested boxes
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that are the basis of the distinctions and indications of LOF.
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LOF is about distinctions and indications.
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Its diagrams are just a particular representation of that.
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Mac uses these diagrams and never had to pay any royalties to GSB.
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Religion
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(g) The Heart Sutra explains clearly how to use the unmarked state (emptiness) to solve all human problems.
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That it has not been applied to this end is not the fault of either GSB or the Buddha.
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(h) I am aware that no matter what I say,
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someone will complain
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about something
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that comes up for them
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when we get near to no-thing.
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That is the nature of it.
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Believe it or not,
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I am not an advocate of the absolute binary distinction.
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It is in contrast to what cannot be said.
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See the quote below that fell into my email from Malcolm Dean.
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<span class="" style="font-size: x-small; font-style: italic;"><a class="" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?id=oI9hwgEACAAJ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VN3_KOI3NVnHHrQCUBhk-CmKe_3eXVjVC6CDnsTgT_aqTDe_YRSaOTbYTVnZXUUn-RfO2h_yggIa9BkE$" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://books.google.com/books?id=oI9hwgEACAAJ</a> </span><a class="" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bleuje.com/mp4set/2019/2019_25.mp4__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VN3_KOI3NVnHHrQCUBhk-CmKe_3eXVjVC6CDnsTgT_aqTDe_YRSaOTbYTVnZXUUn-RfO2h_ygkOzwPOE$" target="_blank" rel="noopener">GIF by <span class="">Etienne</span> <span class="">Jacob</span></a><em class=""> used to illustrate Bits forming an Information process.</em>
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"The <strong class="">tentative and non-black-and-white nature of categorization</strong> is inevitable, and yet <strong class="">the act of categorization often feels perfectly definite and absolute</strong> to the categorizer, since many of our most familiar categories seem on first glance to have <strong class="">precise and sharp boundaries</strong>, and this naïve impression is encouraged by the fact that people’s everyday, run-of-the mill use of words is seldom questioned; in fact, every <strong class="">culture constantly, although tacitly, reinforces the impression that words are simply automatic labels that come naturally to mind and that belong intrinsically to things and entities</strong>. If a category has fringe members, they are made to seem extremely quirky and unnatural, suggesting that nature is really <strong class="">cut precisely at the joints by the categories that we know</strong>. The resulting illusory sense of the <strong class="">near-perfect certainty and clarity of categories</strong> gives rise to much confusion about categories and the mental processes that underlie categorization. The idea that category membership always comes in shades of gray rather than in just black and white <strong class="">runs strongly against ancient cultural conventions</strong>and is therefore disorienting and even disturbing; accordingly, it gets swept under the rug most of the time."
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(i) Oh, and what did you think Hofstader was about?
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Did you think that he was bragging about the clarity and perfection of logic?
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He was telling you the story of how logic in the hands of human understanding
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slayed the Jabberwock of the completeness of formality.
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Don’t worry. You are not the only one who did not listen.
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We sell you fake word makers to do your job.
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And in the year of our T, you can buy cryptocurrency, watches and bibles from your leader.
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<em class="">"<a class="" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks01/0100021.txt__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VN3_KOI3NVnHHrQCUBhk-CmKe_3eXVjVC6CDnsTgT_aqTDe_YRSaOTbYTVnZXUUn-RfO2h_yglukToEj$" target="_blank" rel="noopener">It was one of those pictures</a> which are so contrived that the eyes follow you about when you move."</em>
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Best,
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Lou
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On Jan 19, 2025, at 4:14 PM, Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic <<a class="" href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se" target="_blank" rel="noopener">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se</a>> wrote:
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<span class="" style="font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;">Dear Jason,</span>
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<span class="" style="font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;">I’m having some difficulty understanding the message conveyed through the pictures you’ve shared.<span class=""> </span></span><span class="" style="font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;"><br class=""></span><span class="" style="font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;">For instance, the images representing EU countries depict flames coming from burning cars.<span class=""> </span></span><span class="" style="font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;"><br class=""></span><span class="" style="font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;">However, Europe is vast and diverse, and such scenes can be found<span class=""> </span></span><span class="" style="font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;">all over</span><span class="" style="font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;"><span class=""> </span>the world.</span>
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<span class="" style="font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;">It would be helpful if you could clarify your intention in plain English, so I can better grasp the context and meaning behind.</span>
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<span class="" style="font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;">Additionally, the last<span class=""> </span></span><span class="" style="font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;">four</span><span class="" style="font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;"><span class=""> </span>pictures<span class=""> </span></span><span class="" style="font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;">have no country labels and<span class=""> </span></span><span class="" style="font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;">address issues concerning humanity on a global scale.</span>
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<span class="" style="font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;">Extraterrestrials I don’t know where to place conceptually.</span>
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<span class="" style="font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;">Looking forward to your clarification.</span>
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<span class="" style="font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;">Best regards,</span>
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<span class="" style="font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;">Gordana</span>
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<strong class=""><span class="" style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif;">From:<span class=""> </span></span></strong><span class="" style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif;">Jason Hu <<a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="mailto:jasonthegoodman@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">jasonthegoodman@gmail.com</a>><br class=""><strong class="">Date:<span class=""> </span></strong>Sunday, 19 January 2025 at 19:11<br class=""><strong class="">To:<span class=""> </span></strong>Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic <<a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se" target="_blank" rel="noopener">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se</a>><br class=""><strong class="">Cc:<span class=""> </span></strong>fis <<a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noopener">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br class=""><strong class="">Subject:<span class=""> </span></strong>Re: [Fis] "Percepts" and self-reference and meaning - [chaotic issues]</span>
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<span class="" style="font-size: 18pt;">Dear Gordana, these roughly illustrate what I meant for the question you asked, maybe you're not aware of. I hope each of these images is clear enough. If not, please let me know. Best - Jason</span>
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On Sun, Jan 19, 2025 at 9:43<span class="" style="font-family: Arial,sans-serif;"> </span>AM Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic <<a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se" target="_blank" rel="noopener">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se</a>> wrote:
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<span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;">Dear Jason,</span>
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<span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;">You say: ”</span><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;">the chaotic social issues in the U.K. and the Europ</span><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;">e”</span>
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<span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;">I wonder which countries are you referring to with “</span><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;">the chaotic social issues</span><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;">”?</span>
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<span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;"><a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/2266__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RS9jkPrXovtaK9OrMobFA5d-EXulXksAnRW7oZifSq9nxdVB2X27XUh6Co48niXvyVseo1lew6BDerrJGfgXTFnKLUxXAA$" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/2266</a></span>
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<span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Avenir Light',sans-serif;">Best,</span>
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<strong class=""><span class="" style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif;">From:<span class=""> </span></span></strong><span class="" style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif;">Fis <<a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noopener">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>> on behalf of Jason Hu <<a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="mailto:jasonthegoodman@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">jasonthegoodman@gmail.com</a>><br class=""><strong class="">Date:<span class=""> </span></strong>Sunday, 19 January 2025 at 16:01<br class=""><strong class="">To:<span class=""> </span></strong>"<a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank" rel="noopener">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>" <<a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank" rel="noopener">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br class=""><strong class="">Cc:<span class=""> </span></strong>"Pedro C. Marijuán" <<a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>>, Jerry Swatez <<a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="mailto:swatez@mac.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">swatez@mac.com</a>>, fis <<a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noopener">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br class=""><strong class="">Subject:<span class=""> </span></strong>Re: [Fis] "Percepts" and self-reference and meaning</span>
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<span class="" style="font-size: 18pt;">I second Joe strongly here, "</span><strong class="">they are a possibly misleading way of describing natural physical processes, including and especially cognition.</strong><strong class=""><span class="" style="font-size: 18pt;">"</span></strong><span class="" style="font-size: 18pt;"> </span>
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<span class="" style="font-size: 18pt;">I used to be a fan of Hofstadter's "Gedel, Escher, Bach" in my younger years, but gradually started realizing that type of thoughts might be an intellectual trap - an endless rabbit hole that leads to just self-entertainment or self-glory but no useful actions, no tools for handyman to do everyday work to benefit normal people.</span>
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<span class="" style="font-size: 18pt;">Well,<span class=""> </span><strong class="">"</strong></span><strong class="">I have just written may not be completely correct (what is?)</strong><strong class=""><span class="" style="font-size: 18pt;">"<span class=""> </span></span></strong><span class="" style="font-size: 18pt;">so I welcome any of you to prove me wrong or even change my mind, by offering some solid example of how GSB thinking has been beneficial to solve/resolve/dissolve the huge conflicts going on in the Middle East, or the deep divide among the Americans between Trump supporters and Trump haters, or the chaotic social issues in the U.K. and the Europe. If no such examples exist so far, at least point out to me how it could be, under what conditions?</span>
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<span class="" style="font-size: 18pt;">Best regards - Jason</span>
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On Sun, Jan 19, 2025 at 3:29<span class="" style="font-family: Arial,sans-serif;"> </span>AM <<a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank" rel="noopener">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>> wrote:
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Dear Lou and All,
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Just some comments to explain my resistence to GSB and much of Lou's otherwise essential work: the diagrams used do not nove; they are "eternal". They accurately reflect<span class=""> </span><em class=""><span class="" style="font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">only epistemic self-reference</span></em><span class=""> </span>and not recursion or ontic hetero-reference. Therefore, they are a possibly misleading way of describing natural physical processes, including and especially cognition. Information applies to the content of the diagram below, but the mental "movement" from figure to ground and back, and its logic, is at a low level of complexity. Information more broadly. however, is easily seen as a dynamic phenomenon, embodying and describing <em class=""><span class="" style="font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">change.</span></em>
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I submit that what I have just written may not be completely correct (what is?), but that it has received insufficient serious attention.
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Thank you and best wishes,
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Joseph
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Le 19.01.2025 02:08 CET, Louis Kauffman <<a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">loukau@gmail.com</a>> a écrit :
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Dear Karl,
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Background.
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Figure and Ground.
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Yes.
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And in starting with the idea of a distinction one needs to have an unfettered notion of background.
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That notion is emptiness.
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The empty set is placed against a background of non-membership and it has no members.
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{ }
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The GSB mark is a relative of the empty set and stands for a distinction and for that state obtained by crossing from emptiness
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(the first distinction, if you will.)
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As soon as one fixes on a representation of a concept, that representation has more properties, more inherent and indicated distinctions, than the concept “itself”.
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Thus the curly brackets of the representation of the empty set, { }, are not necessary for the concept. And the right angle bracket is not necessary for the mark.
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We sometimes use < > for the mark as it is useful in typing, but execrable as an icon since < > is two characters representing one distinction. And so it goes.
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It is in fact very powerful to understand the backgrounds that are appropriate for discourse and keep them as minimal as possible.
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In LOF, GSB uses the notational plane as a background, not the line.
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This has some eplstemological advantages and some drawbacks.
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After studying any indication set-up it is useful to examine what kind of background is being used.
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Mathematical advances and scientific advances have resulted from such scrutiny.
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At the level of the Heart Sutra the concept of emptiness can be the basis for (everything).
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Very best,
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Lou
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On Jan 18, 2025, at 3:55 PM, Karl Javorszky <<a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
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Remark: this is usually called BACKGROUND.
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Louis Kauffman <<a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">loukau@gmail.com</a>> schrieb am Sa., 18. Jän. 2025, 22:43:
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Dear Pedro,
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It depends on how you look at it.
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Consider the Heart Sutra.
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In Mathematics, all forms are brought forth from emptiness.<span class=""> </span>
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{ }
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{{}}
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{{},{{}}}
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…
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Emptiness can mean “that which is not (yet) articulated or indicated”.
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At the bottom of what is indicated is what is not indicated.
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What is not indicated is not marked.
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Emptiness is a word for what is not marked.
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Very best,
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Lou
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On Jan 18, 2025, at 3:05 PM, Pedro C. Marijuán <<a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
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Dear Lou and List,
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Thanks to you (and Eric) for the thought-provoking exchange. Along it, I was reminded of a maverick approach to distinctions I read long ago. It was pointing to a set with N elements carrying multiple "signs" or "marks". The distinctions between these elements carrying heterogeneous signs within the set were expressed by means of partitions, actually multidimensional partitions. Other related authors tried to systematically obtain and compile those multidimensional partitions via a few 'logical' principles (economy, parsimony, symmetry) applied to the pruning of redundant signs, and subsequently the 'canonical' multid.partitions could be obtained 'almost' algorithmically (at least for small N)... etc. etc. At least, in my non-mathematical mind I could make some practical sense of this distinctional stuff (in which I was interested regarding cellular signaling systems and the way receptors combinations were occupied by different signaling molecules).
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I disagree with the closing statement (THE FORM WE TAKE TO EXIST ARISES FROM FRAMING NOTHING), because it situates itself above the conditions of any previous kind of existence. IMO it is a Barón of Münchhausen's type of statement. Maths as I pointed days ago inherit the inner dynamics of our sensorimotor transformations from which language developed. Maths, as it has often been recognized, is a particular form of collective language. It partakes of an enormous historical accumulation of thought-experimentation and pruning, particularly trying to capture the transformations of the external world. The implicit subject is always "us", the writer plus the concerned learned community of 'practitioners' of that particular math 'dialect'. And concerning distinctions, it obviously includes the possibility of entering into the scheme of other subjects (as Eric points) endowed with genuine distinctional capability--from living cells to...
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Anyhow, in spite of the disagreement, your message was a great reading. Thanks for those GSB quotations.
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Concerning Kate's recent emphasis on E. coli's two component system in charge of motion control, the discoveries on prokaryotic signaling during last two decades have left a richer panorama. For instance, E. coli counts with about 100 one-component-systems (1CSs), 28 of the 2 CSs class, and just two of the 3 CSs (actually one of them is the motion control). The 1CSs are more simple and primitive (evolutionarily), and slower, with respect to the faster, more specific, and more evolved 2CSs, which in their turn are less complex and sophisticate than 3CSs, which are applied to the treatment of very important signals than need a further layer of intervening processes. It always depend on the whole advancement of the cell cycle, or life history, which endowment the bacterium will contain... Anyhow, the whole signaling panorama of 'primitive' cells is fascinating--it is indeed the beginning of biological sensing & communication.
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By the way, Jason, thanks for that amazing report on the proton innards.
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Greetings to all,
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--Pedro
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El 17/01/2025 a las 21:57, Louis Kauffman escribió:
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Dear Eric,
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There is a confusion here that is quite natural.
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LOF is a book of mathematics and philosophy. It discusses the idea of a distinction.
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When one takes a mathematical approach one attempts to begin with very simple structures and
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explore outward into complexity. LOF dwells on the possibility of one distinction throughout the whole book.
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“We take as given the idea of distinction and the idea of indication
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and that one cannot make an indication without drawing a distinction.
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We take therefore the form of distinction for the form.”
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;"> </p>
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
As such LOF is not concerned with where or how the distinction is made.
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
In the same way, a mathematics book about number is not concerned with particular representations of numbers.
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
Of course we have these concerns and we want to understand more and more about numbers in general
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
and we feel that some representations will help and some ways to use signs and symbols will help.
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
The same is the case with the idea of distinction.
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;"> </p>
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
GSB does have his ontology (or lack thereof!).
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;"> </p>
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
Some people are made a bit nervous by declarations that the world is created from nothing.
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But you can investigate this if you are not annoyed by it.
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What could ’things’ be ‘made of’?
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;"> </p>
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
If you’re bothered, then you are bothered.
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
Mathematics is similarly annoying
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
as we have systematically shown
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
how to build it all from nothing
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
but the act of collecting/distinguishing
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
and the act of creating signs and indications.
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;"> </p>
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
Everyone has their niche of ideas and ways that they want to continue to use.
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
In the approach of a big general idea, what we already “know" looks too good be abandoned,
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
and so we keep demanding that the other talk in our language.
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
GSB created new language.
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
Wittgenstein pointed out the ontological consequences of the limitations of language.
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
Both are very challenging.
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
Neither are making religions.
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
These are anti-religions.
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
Best,
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
Lou
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;"> </p>
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
THE FORM WE TAKE TO EXIST ARISES FROM FRAMING NOTHING.
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;"> </p>
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</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
On Jan 17, 2025, at 6:19 AM, Eric Werner <<a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" target="_blank" rel="noopener">eric.werner@oarf.org</a>> wrote:
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<div class="">
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<div class="">
Dear Lou,
</div>
<div class="">
To point 4. Yes, I admit it was sarcasm. To me a distinction requires a subject. And that subject's neuro-hardware or firmware or software limits the distinctions that that subject can make. For example, the distinctions made by an ant, a frog, a cat or a human may be quite different.
</div>
<div class="">
I realize you are probably the world top expert on Spencer Brown so you probably have a reply. But my instinct is that GSB is claiming too much by using 'distinction' as an ONTOLOGICAL or metaphysical foundation for what requires a subjective capacity. OK, this last sentence is not fully clear, but I think GSB is confusing subject and being.
</div>
<div class="">
As for the sarcasm, it is a more personal emotional reaction having little to do with you. Although you may unknowingly have had a role in the matter through your publications. I have friends who study early Wittgenstein and GSB as if their texts were biblical texts. Going to the library every day to read the Tractatus and LOF like a disciple doing his or her religious studies.
</div>
<div class="">
At the onset of puberty and the ability to consciously reason, my mother took each of us into the kitchen and taught us to be critical of the bible, both the old and new testament. We were raised Christian but there were also Jews in my mother's ancestry. Who knows why, but I have maintained my religious skepticism and hence my perhaps inappropriate reaction when I smell religiosity. Apologies dear Lou.
</div>
<div class="">
In spite of my critical attitude, I do believe there is more to the universe. There may be a God or Gods and angels. There may be life after death. Life is always surprising. So, I am open to that.
</div>
<div class="">
-Eric
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<pre class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">Fis mailing list</pre>
<pre class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a></pre>
<pre class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank" rel="noopener">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a></pre>
<pre class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">----------</pre>
<pre class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL</pre>
<pre class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"> </pre>
<pre class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.</pre>
<pre class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a></pre>
<pre class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.</pre>
<pre class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">http://listas.unizar.es</a></pre>
<pre class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">----------</pre>
</blockquote>
<div class="">
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</div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
_______________________________________________<span class=""> </span>
<br class="">
Fis mailing list<span class=""> </span>
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<br class="">
----------<span class=""> </span>
<br class="">
INFORMACI�N SOBRE PROTECCI�N DE DATOS DE CAR�CTER PERSONAL<span class=""> </span>
<br class="">
<br class="">
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<span class=""> </span>
<br class="">
Puede encontrar toda la informaci�n sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:<a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><span class=""> </span>
<br class="">
Recuerde que si est� suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicaci�n en el momento en que lo desee.<span class=""> </span>
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</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
_______________________________________________<span class=""> </span>
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----------<span class=""> </span>
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<span class=""> </span>
<br class="">
<br class="">
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<span class=""> </span>
<br class="">
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:<a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><span class=""> </span>
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Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<span class=""> </span>
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</blockquote>
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</blockquote>
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
_______________________________________________<span class=""> </span>
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<span class=""> </span>
<br class="">
<br class="">
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<span class=""> </span>
<br class="">
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:<span class=""> </span><a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><span class=""> </span>
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Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<span class=""> </span>
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<div class="" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">
_______________________________________________
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Fis mailing list
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----------
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
<br class="">
<br class="">
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
<br class="">
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:<a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
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Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
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----------
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</blockquote>
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</blockquote>
</div>
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</div><span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline;">_______________________________________________</span>
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<br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
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<br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline;">Puede encontrar toda la informaci�n sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:<span class=""> </span></span><a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
<br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline;">Recuerde que si est� suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicaci�n en el momento en que lo desee.</span>
<br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><a class="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
<br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline;">----------</span>
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</blockquote>
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</div>
</div> _______________________________________________
<br class="">
Fis mailing list
<br class=""><a class="" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<br class=""><a class="" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank" rel="noopener">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
<br class="">
----------
<br class="">
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
<br class="">
<br class="">
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
<br class="">
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a class="" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
<br class="">
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<br class=""><a class="" href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
<br class="">
----------
</blockquote>
</div>
<div class="">
</div>
<div class="">
</div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_signature" dir="ltr">
<div class="" dir="ltr">
Dr. Mark William Johnson
<br class="">
<div class="" dir="ltr" style="color: rgb(34,34,34);">
Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health
</div>
<div class="" dir="ltr" style="color: rgb(34,34,34);">
University of Manchester
</div>
<div class="" dir="ltr" style="color: rgb(34,34,34);">
</div>
<div class="" style="color: rgb(34,34,34);">
Department of Science Education
</div>
<div class="" style="color: rgb(34,34,34);">
University of Copenhagen
</div>
<div class="" style="color: rgb(34,34,34);">
</div>
<div class="" style="color: rgb(34,34,34);">
Department of Eye and Vision Science (honorary)
</div>
<div class="" style="color: rgb(34,34,34);">
University of Liverpool
</div> Phone: 07786 064505
<br class="">
Email: <a class="" href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>
<br class="">
Blog: <a class="" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TNNYlF-xIeqWejYdErsPZLIDVoq_mT3DDX9OSFxyuuci7pFcBMD3gOASdl8nvL9BjFtYY6X2IAzH-u55$" target="_blank" rel="noopener">http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com</a>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div> _______________________________________________
<br>
Fis mailing list
<br>
Fis@listas.unizar.es
<br>
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
<br>
----------
<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
<br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<br>
http://listas.unizar.es
<br>
----------
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