<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear Jason,<div class="">I have already answered this in some other ways, but lets try again.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Diagrams</div><div class="">(a) A diagram is not particularly static. It could be a movie or an injunction to make a movie.</div><div class="">It could be a dance or a ritual, a temple or a war.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">That is how you might view the diagrams about topology of DNA recombination.</div><div class="">And it is in that mode that diagrammatic work and the possibility of creating a diagram from the “microword” by electron microscopy, led to the understandings about </div><div class="">Knotted DNA and topological enzymes. These in turn have had an effect at some medical levels since if your topo enzymes do not work, your cells cannot divide and you die.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.excedr.com/resources/topoisomerase-overview*:*:text=In*20pharmaceuticals*2C*20topoisomerases*20are*20used,anticancer*20therapeutics*20other*20than*20chemotherapy__;I34lJSUlJSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VN3_KOI3NVnHHrQCUBhk-CmKe_3eXVjVC6CDnsTgT_aqTDe_YRSaOTbYTVnZXUUn-RfO2h_ygvadEF65$" class="">https://www.excedr.com/resources/topoisomerase-overview#:~:text=In%20pharmaceuticals%2C%20topoisomerases%20are%20used,anticancer%20therapeutics%20other%20than%20chemotherapy</a>.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So here you have a real example of how diagrammatic topological mathematics is closely allied with applications that can save lives.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">(b) For the design of quantum algorithms and all things quantum field theoretic we use diagrams quite intensively.</div><div class="">The same is true for working out the reactions that lead to the bomb. So diagrams can also be used to kill en masse, as can all of language.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">(c) Written language is a work of diagrams. Those little characters you string together are stylized diagrams, rather static by themselves. And if you live in China or Japan your </div><div class="">Language is an incredible pastiche of diagrams.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">(d) Actually all of mathematics is a pastiche of diagrams for all sorts of conceptual and calculational purposes.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">(e) I refer you to C.S. Peirce for the role of diagrams and signs in thought.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">(f) The greatest masters of diagrams in Cybernetics were Strafford Beer and Humberto Maturana. Perhaps you see some value in their work.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">(f) The GUI that began with Mac and infiltrated PC is the </div><div class="">diagrams of finitely nested boxes </div><div class="">that are the basis of the distinctions and indications of LOF.</div><div class="">LOF is about distinctions and indications. </div><div class="">Its diagrams are just a particular representation of that. </div><div class="">Mac uses these diagrams and never had to pay any royalties to GSB.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Religion</div><div class="">(g) The Heart Sutra explains clearly how to use the unmarked state (emptiness) to solve all human problems. </div><div class="">That it has not been applied to this end is not the fault of either GSB or the Buddha.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">(h) I am aware that no matter what I say, </div><div class="">someone will complain </div><div class="">about something </div><div class="">that comes up for them </div><div class="">when we get near to no-thing. </div><div class="">That is the nature of it.</div><div class="">Believe it or not, </div><div class="">I am not an advocate of the absolute binary distinction. </div><div class="">It is in contrast to what cannot be said.</div><div class="">See the quote below that fell into my email from Malcolm Dean.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><blockquote style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=""><blockquote style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-size: x-small; font-style: italic;" class=""><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?id=oI9hwgEACAAJ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VN3_KOI3NVnHHrQCUBhk-CmKe_3eXVjVC6CDnsTgT_aqTDe_YRSaOTbYTVnZXUUn-RfO2h_yggIa9BkE$" class="">https://books.google.com/books?id=oI9hwgEACAAJ</a> </span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bleuje.com/mp4set/2019/2019_25.mp4__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VN3_KOI3NVnHHrQCUBhk-CmKe_3eXVjVC6CDnsTgT_aqTDe_YRSaOTbYTVnZXUUn-RfO2h_ygkOzwPOE$" target="_blank" class="">GIF by <span class="gmail-il">Etienne</span> <span class="gmail-il">Jacob</span></a><i class=""> used to illustrate Bits forming an Information process.</i><br class="gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">"The <b class="">tentative and non-black-and-white nature of categorization</b> is inevitable, and yet <b class="">the act of categorization often feels perfectly definite and absolute</b> to the categorizer, since many of our most familiar categories seem on first glance to have <b class="">precise and sharp boundaries</b>, and this naïve impression is encouraged by the fact that people’s everyday, run-of-the mill use of words is seldom questioned; in fact, every <b class="">culture constantly, although tacitly, reinforces the impression that words are simply automatic labels that come naturally to mind and that belong intrinsically to things and entities</b>. If a category has fringe members, they are made to seem extremely quirky and unnatural, suggesting that nature is really <b class="">cut precisely at the joints by the categories that we know</b>. The resulting illusory sense of the <b class="">near-perfect certainty and clarity of categories</b> gives rise to much confusion about categories and the mental processes that underlie categorization. The idea that category membership always comes in shades of gray rather than in just black and white <b class="">runs strongly against ancient cultural conventions</b>and is therefore disorienting and even disturbing; accordingly, it gets swept under the rug most of the time." </div><div class=""><br class=""></div></blockquote></blockquote></div><div class="">(i) Oh, and what did you think Hofstader was about?</div><div class="">Did you think that he was bragging about the clarity and perfection of logic? </div><div class="">He was telling you the story of how logic in the hands of human understanding</div><div class="">slayed the Jabberwock of the completeness of formality.</div><div class="">Don’t worry. You are not the only one who did not listen.</div><div class="">We sell you fake word makers to do your job.</div><div class="">And in the year of our T, you can buy cryptocurrency, watches and bibles from your leader.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><i class="ydp72b1ecb8yiv5762753745">"<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks01/0100021.txt__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VN3_KOI3NVnHHrQCUBhk-CmKe_3eXVjVC6CDnsTgT_aqTDe_YRSaOTbYTVnZXUUn-RfO2h_yglukToEj$" class="ydp72b1ecb8yiv5762753745" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">It was one of those pictures</a> which are so contrived that the eyes follow you about when you move."</i></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Best,</div><div class="">Lou</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 19, 2025, at 4:14 PM, Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic <<a href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se" class="">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta charset="UTF-8" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class="">Dear Jason,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class="">I’m having some difficulty understanding the message conveyed through the pictures you’ve shared.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""></span><span style="font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class="">For instance, the images representing EU countries depict flames coming from burning cars.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""></span><span style="font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class="">However, Europe is vast and diverse, and such scenes can be found<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class="">all over</span><span style="font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>the world.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class="">It would be helpful if you could clarify your intention in plain English, so I can better grasp the context and meaning behind.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class="">Additionally, the last<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class="">four</span><span style="font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>pictures<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class="">have no country labels and<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class="">address issues concerning humanity on a global scale.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class="">Extraterrestrials I don’t know where to place conceptually.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class="">Looking forward to your clarification.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class="">Best regards,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class="">Gordana<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Jason Hu <<a href="mailto:jasonthegoodman@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jasonthegoodman@gmail.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Date:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Sunday, 19 January 2025 at 19:11<br class=""><b class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic <<a href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [Fis] "Percepts" and self-reference and meaning - [chaotic issues]<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 18pt;" class="">Dear Gordana, these roughly illustrate what I meant for the question you asked, maybe you're not aware of. I hope each of these images is clear enough. If not, please let me know. Best - Jason<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="border-style: none none solid; border-bottom-width: 1pt; border-bottom-color: windowtext; padding: 0cm 0cm 1pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; border: none; padding: 0cm;" class=""><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">On Sun, Jan 19, 2025 at 9:43<span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=""> </span>AM Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic <<a href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se</a>> wrote:</div></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin: 5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></p><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class="">Dear Jason,</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class=""> </span></p><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class="">You say: ”</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class="">the chaotic social issues in the U.K. and the Europ</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class="">e”</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class="">I wonder which countries are you referring to with “</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class="">the chaotic social issues</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class="">”?</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class=""><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/2266__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RS9jkPrXovtaK9OrMobFA5d-EXulXksAnRW7oZifSq9nxdVB2X27XUh6Co48niXvyVseo1lew6BDerrJGfgXTFnKLUxXAA$" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/2266</a></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class=""> </span></p><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class="">Best,</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class="">Gordana</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class=""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class=""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Avenir Light", sans-serif;" class=""> </span></p><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Fis <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>> on behalf of Jason Hu <<a href="mailto:jasonthegoodman@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jasonthegoodman@gmail.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Date:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Sunday, 19 January 2025 at 16:01<br class=""><b class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>" <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"Pedro C. Marijuán" <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>>, Jerry Swatez <<a href="mailto:swatez@mac.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">swatez@mac.com</a>>, fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [Fis] "Percepts" and self-reference and meaning</span></div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 18pt;" class="">I second Joe strongly here, "</span><b class="">they are a possibly misleading way of describing natural physical processes, including and especially cognition.</b><b class=""><span style="font-size: 18pt;" class="">"</span></b><span style="font-size: 18pt;" class=""> </span></div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 18pt;" class=""> </span></p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 18pt;" class="">I used to be a fan of Hofstadter's "Gedel, Escher, Bach" in my younger years, but gradually started realizing that type of thoughts might be an intellectual trap - an endless rabbit hole that leads to just self-entertainment or self-glory but no useful actions, no tools for handyman to do everyday work to benefit normal people.</span></div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 18pt;" class=""> </span></p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 18pt;" class="">Well,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">"</b></span><b class="">I have just written may not be completely correct (what is?)</b><b class=""><span style="font-size: 18pt;" class="">"<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 18pt;" class="">so I welcome any of you to prove me wrong or even change my mind, by offering some solid example of how GSB thinking has been beneficial to solve/resolve/dissolve the huge conflicts going on in the Middle East, or the deep divide among the Americans between Trump supporters and Trump haters, or the chaotic social issues in the U.K. and the Europe. If no such examples exist so far, at least point out to me how it could be, under what conditions?</span></div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 18pt;" class=""> </span></p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 18pt;" class="">Best regards - Jason</span></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">On Sun, Jan 19, 2025 at 3:29<span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=""> </span>AM <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>> wrote:</div></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin: 5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Dear Lou and All,</div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Just some comments to explain my resistence to GSB and much of Lou's otherwise essential work: the diagrams used do not nove; they are "eternal". They accurately reflect<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><em class=""><span style="font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">only epistemic self-reference</span></em><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>and not recursion or ontic hetero-reference. Therefore, they are a possibly misleading way of describing natural physical processes, including and especially cognition. Information applies to the content of the diagram below, but the mental "movement" from figure to ground and back, and its logic, is at a low level of complexity. Information more broadly. however, is easily seen as a dynamic phenomenon, embodying and describing <em class=""><span style="font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">change.</span></em></div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">I submit that what I have just written may not be completely correct (what is?), but that it has received insufficient serious attention.</div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Thank you and best wishes,</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Joseph</div></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Le 19.01.2025 02:08 CET, Louis Kauffman <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">loukau@gmail.com</a>> a écrit :</div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Dear Karl,</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span id="cid:image001.png@01DB6AC7.F2505A30"><image001.png></span></div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Background.</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Figure and Ground.</div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Yes. </div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">And in starting with the idea of a distinction one needs to have an unfettered notion of background.</div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">That notion is emptiness.</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">The empty set is placed against a background of non-membership and it has no members.</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""> { }</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">The GSB mark is a relative of the empty set and stands for a distinction and for that state obtained by crossing from emptiness</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">(the first distinction, if you will.)</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span id="cid:image002.png@01DB6AC7.F2505A30"><image002.png></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">As soon as one fixes on a representation of a concept, that representation has more properties, more inherent and indicated distinctions, than the concept “itself”.</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Thus the curly brackets of the representation of the empty set, { }, are not necessary for the concept. And the right angle bracket is not necessary for the mark.</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">We sometimes use < > for the mark as it is useful in typing, but execrable as an icon since < > is two characters representing one distinction. And so it goes.</div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">It is in fact very powerful to understand the backgrounds that are appropriate for discourse and keep them as minimal as possible. </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">In LOF, GSB uses the notational plane as a background, not the line. </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">This has some eplstemological advantages and some drawbacks. </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">After studying any indication set-up it is useful to examine what kind of background is being used. </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Mathematical advances and scientific advances have resulted from such scrutiny.</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">At the level of the Heart Sutra the concept of emptiness can be the basis for (everything).</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Very best,</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Lou</div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">On Jan 18, 2025, at 3:55 PM, Karl Javorszky <<a href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Remark: this is usually called BACKGROUND. </div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Louis Kauffman <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">loukau@gmail.com</a>> schrieb am Sa., 18. Jän. 2025, 22:43:</div></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Dear Pedro,</div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">It depends on how you look at it.</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Consider the Heart Sutra.</div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p><div class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class="">In Mathematics, all forms are brought forth from emptiness.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">{ }</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">{{}}</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">{{},{{}}}</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">…</div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Emptiness can mean “that which is not (yet) articulated or indicated”.</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">At the bottom of what is indicated is what is not indicated.</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">What is not indicated is not marked.</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Emptiness is a word for what is not marked.</div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Very best,</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Lou</div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><br class=""><br class=""></p><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">On Jan 18, 2025, at 3:05 PM, Pedro C. Marijuán <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Dear Lou and List,</div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Thanks to you (and Eric) for the thought-provoking exchange. Along it, I was reminded of a maverick approach to distinctions I read long ago. It was pointing to a set with N elements carrying multiple "signs" or "marks". The distinctions between these elements carrying heterogeneous signs within the set were expressed by means of partitions, actually multidimensional partitions. Other related authors tried to systematically obtain and compile those multidimensional partitions via a few 'logical' principles (economy, parsimony, symmetry) applied to the pruning of redundant signs, and subsequently the 'canonical' multid.partitions could be obtained 'almost' algorithmically (at least for small N)... etc. etc. At least, in my non-mathematical mind I could make some practical sense of this distinctional stuff (in which I was interested regarding cellular signaling systems and the way receptors combinations were occupied by different signaling molecules). </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">I disagree with the closing statement (THE FORM WE TAKE TO EXIST ARISES FROM FRAMING NOTHING), because it situates itself above the conditions of any previous kind of existence. IMO it is a Barón of Münchhausen's type of statement. Maths as I pointed days ago inherit the inner dynamics of our sensorimotor transformations from which language developed. Maths, as it has often been recognized, is a particular form of collective language. It partakes of an enormous historical accumulation of thought-experimentation and pruning, particularly trying to capture the transformations of the external world. The implicit subject is always "us", the writer plus the concerned learned community of 'practitioners' of that particular math 'dialect'. And concerning distinctions, it obviously includes the possibility of entering into the scheme of other subjects (as Eric points) endowed with genuine distinctional capability--from living cells to...</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Anyhow, in spite of the disagreement, your message was a great reading. Thanks for those GSB quotations.</div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Concerning Kate's recent emphasis on E. coli's two component system in charge of motion control, the discoveries on prokaryotic signaling during last two decades have left a richer panorama. For instance, E. coli counts with about 100 one-component-systems (1CSs), 28 of the 2 CSs class, and just two of the 3 CSs (actually one of them is the motion control). The 1CSs are more simple and primitive (evolutionarily), and slower, with respect to the faster, more specific, and more evolved 2CSs, which in their turn are less complex and sophisticate than 3CSs, which are applied to the treatment of very important signals than need a further layer of intervening processes. It always depend on the whole advancement of the cell cycle, or life history, which endowment the bacterium will contain... Anyhow, the whole signaling panorama of 'primitive' cells is fascinating--it is indeed the beginning of biological sensing & communication.</div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">By the way, Jason, thanks for that amazing report on the proton innards.</div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Greetings to all,</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">--Pedro</div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">El 17/01/2025 a las 21:57, Louis Kauffman escribió:</div></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Dear Eric,</div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">There is a confusion here that is quite natural.</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">LOF is a book of mathematics and philosophy. It discusses the idea of a distinction.</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">When one takes a mathematical approach one attempts to begin with very simple structures and </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">explore outward into complexity. LOF dwells on the possibility of one distinction throughout the whole book.</div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">“We take as given the idea of distinction and the idea of indication </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">and that one cannot make an indication without drawing a distinction. </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">We take therefore the form of distinction for the form.”</div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">As such LOF is not concerned with where or how the distinction is made.</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">In the same way, a mathematics book about number is not concerned with particular representations of numbers.</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Of course we have these concerns and we want to understand more and more about numbers in general</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">and we feel that some representations will help and some ways to use signs and symbols will help. </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">The same is the case with the idea of distinction. </div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">GSB does have his ontology (or lack thereof!). </div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Some people are made a bit nervous by declarations that the world is created from nothing. </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">But you can investigate this if you are not annoyed by it.</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">What could ’things’ be ‘made of’? </div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">If you’re bothered, then you are bothered.</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Mathematics is similarly annoying </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">as we have systematically shown </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">how to build it all from nothing </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">but the act of collecting/distinguishing </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">and the act of creating signs and indications.</div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Everyone has their niche of ideas and ways that they want to continue to use. </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">In the approach of a big general idea, what we already “know" looks too good be abandoned, </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">and so we keep demanding that the other talk in our language.</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">GSB created new language. </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Wittgenstein pointed out the ontological consequences of the limitations of language. </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Both are very challenging. </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Neither are making religions. </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">These are anti-religions.</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Best,</div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Lou</div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">THE FORM WE TAKE TO EXIST ARISES FROM FRAMING NOTHING.</div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">On Jan 17, 2025, at 6:19 AM, Eric Werner <<a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">eric.werner@oarf.org</a>> wrote:</div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </p><div class=""><div class=""><div class="">Dear Lou,</div><div class="">To point 4. Yes, I admit it was sarcasm. To me a distinction requires a subject. And that subject's neuro-hardware or firmware or software limits the distinctions that that subject can make. For example, the distinctions made by an ant, a frog, a cat or a human may be quite different. </div><div class="">I realize you are probably the world top expert on Spencer Brown so you probably have a reply. But my instinct is that GSB is claiming too much by using 'distinction' as an ONTOLOGICAL or metaphysical foundation for what requires a subjective capacity. OK, this last sentence is not fully clear, but I think GSB is confusing subject and being.</div><div class="">As for the sarcasm, it is a more personal emotional reaction having little to do with you. Although you may unknowingly have had a role in the matter through your publications. I have friends who study early Wittgenstein and GSB as if their texts were biblical texts. Going to the library every day to read the Tractatus and LOF like a disciple doing his or her religious studies. </div><div class="">At the onset of puberty and the ability to consciously reason, my mother took each of us into the kitchen and taught us to be critical of the bible, both the old and new testament. We were raised Christian but there were also Jews in my mother's ancestry. Who knows why, but I have maintained my religious skepticism and hence my perhaps inappropriate reaction when I smell religiosity. Apologies dear Lou.</div><div class="">In spite of my critical attitude, I do believe there is more to the universe. There may be a God or Gods and angels. There may be life after death. Life is always surprising. So, I am open to that.</div><div class="">-Eric</div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><pre style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">Fis mailing list</pre><pre style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">----------</pre><pre style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL</pre><pre style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class=""> </pre><pre style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.</pre><pre style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.</pre><pre style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://listas.unizar.es</a></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">----------</pre></blockquote><div class=""> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">_______________________________________________<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Fis mailing list<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">----------<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">INFORMACI�N SOBRE PROTECCI�N DE DATOS DE CAR�CTER PERSONAL<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Puede encontrar toda la informaci�n sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:<a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Recuerde que si est� suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicaci�n en el momento en que lo desee.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://listas.unizar.es</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">----------<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">_______________________________________________<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Fis mailing list<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">----------<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:<a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://listas.unizar.es</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">----------<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">_______________________________________________<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Fis mailing list<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">----------<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://listas.unizar.es</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">----------<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div></blockquote></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Fis mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br class="">----------<br class="">INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br class=""><br class="">Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br class="">Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:<a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br class="">Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br class="">----------</div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); 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