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Dear Eric, dear all,<br>
Werner Heisenberg titled one of his books “The Part and the Whole”. The book concludes with a conversation between Heisenberg, Carl Friedrich v. Weizsäcker and Heisenberg's wife Elisabeth, which took place between 1961 and 1965. Here is an excerpt:<br>
<span style="font-size:11px;">Carl Friedrich was only half satisfied: “Yes, those are very nice general philosophical thoughts, but I would like to know more precisely. I actually hope that in this way we will arrive at the real laws of nature. Your field equation, which we don't yet know for sure represents nature correctly, looks as if it could arise from this philosophy of alternatives. But in the end, it should be possible to prove this with the degree of rigor that is usual in mathematics. “<br>
“So you want,” I added, “to build the elementary particles, and thus ultimately the world, in the same way from alternatives, just as Plato wanted to build his regular solids and thus also the world from triangles. Alternatives are no more matter than the triangles in Plato's 'Timaeus' are. But if you take the logic of quantum theory as a basis, the alternative is a basic form from which more complicated basic forms arise through repetition. So, if I understand you correctly, the path should lead from the alternative to a symmetry group, that is, to a property; the mathematical forms that represent the elementary particles are the representations of one or more properties; they are, so to speak, the ideas of the elementary particles, to which the object of the elementary particles then ultimately corresponds. This general construction is perfectly comprehensible to me. And the alternative is certainly a much more fundamental structure of our thinking than the triangle.<br>
<em>But I imagine that the exact implementation of your program is extremely difficult. Because it will require a thinking of such a high level of abstraction as has never occurred before, at least in physics. It would certainly be too difficult for me.</em> <em>But the younger generation has an easier time thinking abstractly. So you should definitely try it with your colleagues.</em>”<br>
Elisabeth, who had been listening from afar, now intervened in the conversation:<br>
“Do you think you can interest the young generation in such difficult problems that involve the big picture? If I go by what you occasionally tell about physics in the big research centers here or in America, it seems as if the interest of the younger generation in particular is almost exclusively directed towards the details, as if the big picture is almost a kind of taboo. They should not be spoken of. Could it not be the same here as in the late antiquity of astronomy, when people were quite content to calculate the next solar and lunar eclipses with superimposed cycles and epicycles, and forgot about the heliocentric planetary system of Aristarchus? Could it not happen that interest in your general questions fades away completely?”<br>
But I did not want to be so pessimistic here and objected. “Interest in the details is good and necessary, because after all we want to know what is really the case. And you remember that Niels [Bohr] also liked to quote the verse: ‘Only abundance leads to clarity’. I am not at all dissatisfied with the taboo either. For a taboo is not imposed to forbid what is not to be spoken of, but to protect it from the chatter and ridicule of the many. From time immemorial, the justification for a taboo has been as in Goethe: 'Tell no one, only the wise, because the crowd immediately ridicules... ‹ So you shouldn't fight the taboo. There will always be young people who think about the big picture, if only because they want to be completely honest, and then it doesn't matter how many there are.«</span><br>
<br>
If you have only been taught quantum theory as a theory about the smallest particles, the title of the book could be a little confusing. The fact that quantum theory is above all a theory of wholes is rarely explained clearly. But it is precisely for this reason that quantum theory can shed light on the problem of self-reference.<br>
<br>
If I see it right, the problem of self-reference is connected with the problem that a part of a whole can grasp this whole.<br>
That a part can become equally powerful as the whole is only conceivable for infinite sets. The square numbers are much rarer than the natural numbers. The square numbers are a proper subset of the natural numbers. Nevertheless, there is a square for every natural number, so that the power of the natural numbers and that of the square numbers is identical.<br>
Of course, with finite sets, a one-to-one assignment of a part to the whole is not possible. However, this does not mean that an essential infinity must be immediately recognizable as such. It is probably sufficient if infinity can be understood as a possibility.<br>
<br>
This brings me to Eric's comment.<br>
<strong>1 </strong>In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.<br>
In addition, some remarks on the Greek term λόγος from the German Wikipedia:<br>
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos*cite_ref-1__;Iw!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RXFR1jwLiFNXBZCIaDPtmvh3-xiOy5A9tEsds0dE8ZKgan4BNCpI-WecgpNItufA8QJjALUenx_Bcdca4tkFkeD5vbv7kA$">https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos#cite_ref-1</a><br>
“A pertinent dictionary[1] gives the following translations, among others: speaking, oral communication, word, speech, narration, message, rumor, (grammatical) sentence, saying of God (NT), command (NT), prophecy (NT), teaching (NT), permission to speak, eloquence, proposition, assertion, dogma, definition, concept, the subject of discussion, thing, object, calculation, reckoning, consideration, estimation, relationship, reason, intention.”<br>
So if λόγος in ancient Greece had the meanings, among others,<br>
“assertion, definition, object, calculation”,<br>
, then it is perhaps not very presumptuous to write today:<br>
<strong>“In the beginning was information.”</strong><br>
<br>
One could also say: the cosmos does not begin with a bang, but with a single quantum of action, a quantum bit.<br>
Why I find this very reasonable from a scientific point of view is something I have explained in publications.<br>
[e.g. Görnitz T, Schomäcker U (2021) Quantumbit Cosmology explains Effects of Rotation Curves of Galaxies, <em>Foundations of Science</em>, <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s10699-021-09808-y__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RXFR1jwLiFNXBZCIaDPtmvh3-xiOy5A9tEsds0dE8ZKgan4BNCpI-WecgpNItufA8QJjALUenx_Bcdca4tkFkeDuYlYsGQ$">https://doi.org/10.1007/s10699-021-09808-y</a> ]<br>
<br>
In my view, religion begins a few verses later, in John 1:14:<br>
“And the λόγος was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”<br>
<br>
Back to science:<br>
A quantum bit is a possibility, and possibilities generate new possibilities. In physical terms, this means that the cosmos is expanding.<br>
A quantum bit is represented by a wave function whose wavelength is of the order of the cosmic curvature radius. Only many quantum bits can generate something as small as a quantum particle.<br>
From many quantum bits, the particles of relativistic quantum mechanics can be mathematically represented by irreducible representations of the Poincaré group.<br>
<span style="font-size:10px;">[Görnitz T, Graudenz D, Weizsäcker C F v (1992<sup>3</sup>) Quantum Field Theory of Binary Alternatives; <em>Intern. J. Theoret. Phys</em>. 31, 1929-1959<br>
Görnitz T, Schomäcker U (2012) Quantum Particles from Quantum Information, <em>Journal of Physics: Conference Series 380</em>; 012025 doi:10.1088/1742-6596/380/1/012025]</span><br>
<br>
In my experience, a major conceptual difficulty lies in the fact that a cosmic quantum bit, an AQI, is still completely abstract, that it still has to be understood as something purely physical, as something still completely “meaning-free”.<br>
Heisenberg had said at the time that he could not think as abstractly as Weizsäcker's approach requires. When I began to study Weizsäcker's ideas mathematically more than four decades ago, it became clear to me that one had to think even more abstractly than Weizsäcker. For Weizsäcker, information was always thought of as meaningful. But you can't work with that in physics. That is why the transition from Weizsäcker's Ur-alternatives to the AQIs was necessary.<br>
<br>
<strong>(Quantum) information can only become meaningful in cosmic evolution with the emergence of life. #</strong><br>
<br>
For a star, a planet or a stone, energy must be used to bring about a change.<br>
But living things can be influenced by mere information. In such a case of “causing an effect” (which, for example, can also consist of not following a reflex), the information takes on a meaning for that living being.<br>
Such information must be able to act locally for a localized living being; it therefore appears as meaningful information as a property of an energetic (photons) or material (ATP, other molecules, nerve structures, solids) carrier. (These carriers are themselves formations of AQIs.)<br>
However, the importance of the carriers disappears behind the meaning that the information takes on for the living being in question. An equal amount of meaning can be evoked in completely different ways by completely different carriers. For example, you can read a text or you can listen to it.<br>
<br>
Even if a quantum bit has only two orthogonal states, there are an infinite number of other possibilities between these two, so to speak between yes or no. Perhaps this helps with considerations regarding self-reference.<br>
On the one hand, there is an activation of memory content from the unconscious that matches or could match the information currently being consciously processed. Part of human creativity is produced by the fact that during such activations, content is also brought into consciousness that is not immediately apparent as logical reasons. On the other hand, one is able to use one's consciousness to reflect on what has just been consciously thought.<br>
Consciousness as a very large amount of interrelated quantum information is at least approximately capable of allowing a part of it, i.e. our conscious thoughts, to reflect on the whole. In living beings, the factual equality (as in mathematics between natural numbers and square numbers) is replaced by a possible equality in a temporal succession. A self-reference refers to what has just been thought.<br>
<br>
All the best<br>
Thomas<br>
<br>
Werner Heisenberg hat einem seiner Bücher den Titel „Der Teil und das Ganze“ gegeben. Das Buch schließt mit der Schilderung eines Gespräches zwischen Heisenberg, Carl Friedrich v. Weizsäcker und Heisenbergs Ehefrau Elisabeth, welches zwischen 1961 und 1965 stattfand. Davon ein Auszug:<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:11px;">Carl Friedrich war nur halb zufrieden: »Ja, das sind so ganz schöne allgemeine philosophische Gedanken, aber ich möchte das doch genauer wissen. Ich hoffe eigentlich, daß man in dieser Weise genau zu den wirklichen Naturgesetzen kommt. Eure Feldgleichung, von der man ja noch nicht sicher weiß, ob sie die Natur richtig darstellt, sieht so aus, als könnte sie aus dieser Philosophie der Alternativen entstehen. Aber das muß man doch mit dem Grad der Strenge, der in der Mathematik üblich ist, schließlich herausbringen können.«<br>
»Du möchtest also«, fügte ich ein, »die Elementarteilchen, und damit schließlich die Welt, in der gleichen Weise aus Alternativen aufbauen, wie Plato seine regulären Körper und damit auch die Welt aus Dreiecken aufbauen wollte. Die Alternativen sind ebensowenig Materie wie die Dreiecke in Platos ›Timaios‹. Aber wenn man die Logik der Quantentheorie zugrunde legt, so ist die Alternative eine Grundform, aus der kompliziertere Grundformen durch Wiederholung entstehen. Der Weg soll also, wenn ich dich richtig verstanden habe, von der Alternative zu einer Symmetriegruppe, das heißt zu einer Eigenschaft führen; die Darstellenden einer oder mehrerer Eigenschaften sind die mathematischen Formen, die die Elementarteilchen abbilden; sie sind sozusagen die Ideen der Elementarteilchen, denen dann schließlich das Objekt Elementarteilchen entspricht. Diese allgemeine Konstruktion ist mir durchaus verständlich. Auch ist die Alternative sicher eine sehr viel fundamentalere Struktur unseres Denkens als das Dreieck.<br>
<em>Aber die exakte Durchführung deines Programms stelle ich mir doch außerordentlich schwierig vor. Denn sie wird ein Denken von so hoher Abstraktheit erfordern, wie sie bisher, wenigstens in der Physik, nie vorgekommen ist. Mir wäre das sicher zu schwer. Aber die jüngere Generation hat es ja leichter, abstrakt zu denken. Also solltest du das mit deinen Mitarbeitern unbedingt versuchen.</em>«<br>
Hier schaltete sich Elisabeth in das Gespräch ein, die von ferne zugehört hatte:<br>
»Glaubt ihr denn, daß ihr die junge Generation für solche schwierigen Probleme interessieren könnt, die den großen Zusammenhang betreffen? Wenn ich von dem ausgehe, was ihr gelegentlich von der Physik in den großen Forschungszentren hier oder in Amerika erzählt, so sieht es doch so aus, als ob sich das Interesse gerade bei der jüngeren Generation fast nur den Einzelheiten zuwendet, als ob die großen Zusammenhänge beinahe einer Art von Tabu unterliegen. Man soll von ihnen nicht sprechen. Könnte es hier nicht so gehen, wie im ausgehenden Altertum mit der Astronomie, als man sich durchaus damit begnügte, die nächsten Sonnen- und Mondfinsternisse mit überlagerten Zyklen und Epizykeln auszurechnen, und das heliozentrische Planetensystem des Aristarch darüber vergaß? Könnte es nicht geschehen, daß das Interesse für eure allgemeinen Fragen völlig erlischt?«<br>
Aber ich wollte hier nicht so pessimistisch sein und widersprach. »Das Interesse für die Einzelheiten ist gut und notwendig, denn wir wollen ja schließlich wissen, wie es wirklich ist. Und du erinnerst dich, daß auch Niels [Bohr] immer gern den Vers zitiert hat: ›Nur die Fülle führt zur Klarheit‹. Auch mit dem Tabu bin ich gar nicht so unzufrieden. Denn ein Tabu wird ja nicht verhängt, um das zu verbieten, von dem man nicht sprechen soll, sondern um es gegen das Geschwätz und den Spott der vielen zu schützen. Von jeher hat die Begründung eines Tabus doch so gelautet wie bei Goethe: ›Sagt es niemand, nur den Weisen, weil die Menge gleich verhöhnet... ‹ Gegen das Tabu soll man sich also nicht wehren. Es wird immer wieder junge Menschen geben, die auch über die großen Zusammenhänge nachdenken, schon weil sie bis zum Letzten ehrlich sein wollen, und dann kommt es ja nicht darauf an, wie viele es sind.«</span><br>
<br>
Wenn man die Quantentheorie lediglich als eine Theorie über kleinste Teilchen gelehrt bekommen hat, könnte der Titel des Buches etwas irritieren. Dass die Quantentheorie vor allem eine Theorie über Ganzheiten ist, das wird selten deutlich erklärt. Aber genau deshalb kann die Quantentheorie ein Licht auf das Problem der Selbstreferenz werfen.<br>
Das Problem des Selbstreferenz hängt, wenn ich es richtig sehe, mit dem Problem zusammen, dass ein Teil einer Ganzheit diese Ganzheit erfassen kann.<br>
Dass ein Teil gleichmächtig mit dem Ganzen wird, das ist nur für unendliche Mengen vorstellbar. Zwar sind die Quadratzahlen sehr viel seltener als die natürlichen Zahlen. Die Quadratzahlen sind eine echte Teilmenge der natürlichen Zahlen. Trotzdem gibt es zu jeder natürlichen Zahl deren Quadrat, so dass die Mächtigkeit der natürlichen Zahlen und diejenige der Quadratzahlen identisch ist.<br>
<br>
Mit endlichen Mengen ist eine eineindeutige Zuordnung eines Teils zum Ganzen natürlich nicht möglich. Das bedeutet allerdings nicht, dass eine notwendige Unendlichkeit als solche auch unmittelbar erkennbar werden muss. Wahrscheinlich genügt es, wenn die Unendlichkeit als Möglichkeit verstanden werden kann.<br>
<br>
Das damit komme ich Erics Anmerkung.<br>
<br>
<strong>1 </strong>In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.<br>
<br>
Dazu einige Bemerkungen zum griechische Term λόγος aus der deutschen Wikipedia:<br>
<br>
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos*cite_ref-1__;Iw!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RXFR1jwLiFNXBZCIaDPtmvh3-xiOy5A9tEsds0dE8ZKgan4BNCpI-WecgpNItufA8QJjALUenx_Bcdca4tkFkeD5vbv7kA$">https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos#cite_ref-1</a><br>
„Ein einschlägiges Wörterbuch[1] nennt u. a. die Übersetzungen Sprechen, mündliche Mitteilung, Wort, Rede, Erzählung, Nachricht, Gerücht, (grammatikalischer) Satz, Ausspruch Gottes (NT), Befehl (NT), Weissagung (NT), Lehre (NT), Erlaubnis zum Reden, Beredsamkeit, aufgestellter Satz, Behauptung, Lehrsatz, Definition, Begriffsbestimmung, wovon die Rede ist, Sache, Gegenstand, das Berechnen, Rechenschaft, Rechnung, Rücksicht, Wertschätzung, Verhältnis, Vernunft, Absicht.“<br>
<br>
Wenn also λόγος im alten Griechenland unter anderem die Bedeutungen:<br>
„Behauptung, Begriffsbestimmung, Gegenstand, Rechnung“<br>
hatte, so ist es vielleicht nicht sehr vermessen, heute zu schreiben:<br>
<br>
<strong>»Im Anfang war die Information.«</strong><br>
<br>
Man könnte auch sagen: der Kosmos beginnt nicht mit einem Knall, sondern mit einem einzigen Wirkungsquantum, einem Quantenbit.<br>
Warum ich das aus naturwissenschaftlicher Sicht sehr vernünftig empfinde, habe ich in vielen Publikationen erläutert.<br>
<br>
In meinen Augen beginnt die Religion einige Zeilen später, bei John 1,14:<br>
»And the λόγος was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.«<br>
<br>
Zurück zur Naturwissenschaft:<br>
Ein Quantenbit ist eine Möglichkeit, und Möglichkeiten erzeugen neue Möglichkeiten. Physikalisch gesprochen heißt das: der Kosmos expandiert.<br>
Ein Quantenbit wird dargestellt durch eine Wellenfunktion, deren Wellenlänge von der Größenordnung des kosmischen Krümmungsradius ist. Erst viele Quantenbits können so etwas Kleines wie ein Quantenteilchen erzeugen.<br>
Aus vielen Quantenbits können die Teilchen der relativistischen Quantenmechanik mathematisch repräsentiert werden durch irreduzible Darstellungen der Poincaré-Gruppe.<br>
[Görnitz T, Graudenz D, Weizsäcker C F v (1992<sup>3</sup>) Quantum Field Theory of Binary Alternatives; <em>Intern. J. Theoret. </em><em>Phys</em>. 31, 1929-1959<br>
Görnitz T, Schomäcker U (2012) Quantum Particles from Quantum Information, <em>Journal of Physics: Conference Series 380</em>; 012025 doi:10.1088/1742-6596/380/1/012025]<br>
Eine große gedankliche Schwierigkeit liegt nach meiner Erfahrung darin, dass ein kosmisches Quantenbit, ein AQI, noch völlig abstrakt ist, dass es noch als etwas rein Physikalisches, als noch völlig „bedeutungs-frei“ verstanden werden muss.<br>
Heisenberg hatte damals gemeint, dass er nicht so abstrakt denken könne, wie es Weizsäckers Ansatz erforderlich macht. Als ich vor mehr als vier Jahrzehnten begann, mich mathematisch mit Weizsäckers Überlegungen zu befassen, wurde mir klar, dass man noch abstrakter denken musste als Weizsäcker. Bei Weizsäcker wurde Information immer als bedeutungsvoll gedacht. Damit kann man aber in der Physik nicht arbeiten. Deshalb wurde der Übergang von Weizsäckers Ur-Alternativen zu den AQIs notwendig.<br>
<br>
(Quanten-)Information kann in der kosmischen Evolution erst mit der Entstehung des Lebens auch bedeutungsvoll werden.<br>
Bei einem Stern, einem Planeten oder einem Stein muss man für eine Veränderung Energie einsetzen.<br>
Aber Lebendiges kann durch bloße Information beeinflusst werden. In einem solchen Fall des „Hervorrufens einer Wirkung“ (die beispielsweise auch darin bestehen kann, einem Reflex nicht zu folgen) erlangt die Information für dieses Lebewesen eine Bedeutung.<br>
Solche Information muss für ein lokalisiertes Lebewesen lokal wirken können, sie erscheint als bedeutungsvolle Information daher als Eigenschaft eines energetischen (Photonen) oder materiellen Trägers (ATP, andere Moleküle, Nervenstrukturen, Festkörper). (Diese Träger sind selbst Formungen aus AQIs.)<br>
Die Wichtigkeit der Träger verschwindet aber hinter der Bedeutung, welche die Information für das betreffende Lebewesen erhält. Die gleiche Bedeutung kann auf völlig unterschiedliche Weise durch völlig unterschiedliche Träger hervorgerufen werden. Beispielsweise kann man einen Text lesen oder anhören.<br>
Auch wenn ein Quantenbit nur zwei orthogonale Zustände hat, gibt es zwischen diesen beiden, sozusagen zwischen ja oder nein, noch unendlich viele andere Möglichkeiten. Vielleicht hilft das bei Überlegungen bezüglich der Selbstreferenz.<br>
Einerseits gibt es aus dem Unbewussten eine Aktivierung von Gedächtnisinhalten, die zu der aktuell bewusst verarbeiteten Information passend sind oder passend sein können. Ein Teil der menschlichen Kreativität wird dadurch hervorgebracht, dass bei solchen Aktivierungen auch Inhalte ins Bewusstsein getragen werden, die nicht unmittelbar als logischen Gründen naheliegend sind. Andererseits ist man mit seinem Bewusstsein in der Lage, auf das soeben bewusst Gedachte zu reflektieren.<br>
Bewusstsein als eine sehr große Menge von miteinander verschränkter Quanteninformation ist zumindest näherungsweise in der Lage, dass ein Teil davon, also unsere bewussten Gedanken, das Ganze reflektieren kann. Bei Lebewesen wird die faktische Gleichmächtigkeit (wie in der Mathematik zwischen natürlichen Zahlen und Quadratzahlen) abgelöst durch eine mögliche Gleichmächtigkeit bei einem zeitlichen Nacheinander. Eine Selbstbezüglichkeit bezieht sich auf das soeben Gedachte.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Quoting Eric Werner <<a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org">eric.werner@oarf.org</a>>:</p>
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The problem with with a religion. It’s not very practical for many use cases it’s meant for tho eternal.
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In the beginning, it was the word and the word was God</div>
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Sound familiar?</div>
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Eric</div>
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Sent from my iPhone</div>
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On Jan 19, 2025, at 16:01, Jason Hu <jasonthegoodman@gmail.com> wrote:<br>
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I second Joe strongly here, "<b><span style="font-size:16px"> </span><span style="font-size:16px">they are a possibly misleading way of describing natural physical processes, including and especially cognition.</span><span style="font-size:16px"> </span>"</b></div>
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I used to be a fan of Hofstadter's "Gedel, Escher, Bach" in my younger years, but gradually started realizing that type of thoughts might be an intellectual trap - an endless rabbit hole that leads to just self-entertainment or self-glory but no useful actions, no tools for handyman to do everyday work to benefit normal people. </div>
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Well, <b>"<span style="font-size:16px">I have just written may not be completely correct (what is?)</span>" </b>so I welcome any of you to prove me wrong or even change my mind, by offering some solid example of how GSB thinking has been beneficial to solve/resolve/dissolve the huge conflicts going on in the Middle East, or the deep divide among the Americans between Trump supporters and Trump haters, or the chaotic social issues in the U.K. and the Europe. If no such examples exist so far, at least point out to me how it could be, under what conditions?</div>
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Best regards - Jason </div>
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On Sun, Jan 19, 2025 at 3:29 AM <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>> wrote:</div>
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<u><span style="font-size:12pt">Dear Lou and All,</span> </u></div>
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<u><span style="font-size:12pt">Just some comments to explain my resistence to GSB and much of Lou's otherwise essential work: the diagrams used do not nove; they are "eternal". They accurately reflect <em>only epistemic self-reference</em> and not recursion or ontic hetero-reference. Therefore, they are a possibly misleading way of describing natural physical processes, including and especially cognition. Information applies to the content of the diagram below, but the mental "movement" from figure to ground and back, and its logic, is at a low level of complexity. Information more broadly. however, is easily seen as a dynamic phenomenon, embodying and describing <em>change.</em></span> </u></div>
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<u><span style="font-size:12pt">I submit that what I have just written may not be completely correct (what is?), but that it has received insufficient serious attention. </span> </u></div>
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<u><span style="font-size:12pt">Thank you and best wishes,</span> </u></div>
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<u><span style="font-size:12pt">Joseph</span> </u></div>
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<u>Le 19.01.2025 02:08 CET, Louis Kauffman <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" target="_blank">loukau@gmail.com</a>> a écrit : </u></div>
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<u>Dear Karl, </u></div>
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<u><VasesFaces copy.png></u></div>
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<u>Background. </u></div>
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<u>Figure and Ground. </u></div>
<u>Yes. </u>
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<u>And in starting with the idea of a distinction one needs to have an unfettered notion of background. </u>
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<u>That notion is emptiness. </u></div>
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<u>The empty set is placed against a background of non-membership and it has no members. </u></div>
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<u> { } </u></div>
<div>
<u>The GSB mark is a relative of the empty set and stands for a distinction and for that state obtained by crossing from emptiness </u></div>
<div>
<u>(the first distinction, if you will.) </u></div>
<div>
<div>
<u><Mark.png></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<u>As soon as one fixes on a representation of a concept, that representation has more properties, more inherent and indicated distinctions, than the concept “itself”. </u></div>
<div>
<u>Thus the curly brackets of the representation of the empty set, { }, are not necessary for the concept. And the right angle bracket is not necessary for the mark. </u></div>
<div>
<u>We sometimes use < > for the mark as it is useful in typing, but execrable as an icon since < > is two characters representing one distinction. And so it goes. </u></div>
<div>
<u> </u></div>
<div>
<u>It is in fact very powerful to understand the backgrounds that are appropriate for discourse and keep them as minimal as possible. </u></div>
<div>
<u>In LOF, GSB uses the notational plane as a background, not the line. </u></div>
<div>
<u>This has some eplstemological advantages and some drawbacks. </u></div>
<div>
<u>After studying any indication set-up it is useful to examine what kind of background is being used. </u></div>
<div>
<u>Mathematical advances and scientific advances have resulted from such scrutiny. </u></div>
<div>
<u>At the level of the Heart Sutra the concept of emptiness can be the basis for (everything). </u></div>
<div>
<u>Very best, </u></div>
<div>
<u>Lou </u></div>
<div>
<u> </u></div>
<div>
<br>
<div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<u>On Jan 18, 2025, at 3:55 PM, Karl Javorszky <<a href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" target="_blank">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>> wrote: </u></div>
<div>
<div dir="auto">
<u>Remark: this is usually called BACKGROUND. </u></div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">
<u>Louis Kauffman <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" target="_blank">loukau@gmail.com</a>> schrieb am Sa., 18. Jän. 2025, 22:43: </u></div>
<blockquote>
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<u>Dear Pedro, </u>
<div>
<u>It depends on how you look at it. </u></div>
<div>
<u>Consider the Heart Sutra. </u></div>
<div>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<u> </u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<br>
<br>
<u>In Mathematics, all forms are brought forth from emptiness. </u></div>
<div>
<u> </u></div>
<div>
<u>{ } </u></div>
<div>
<u>{{}} </u></div>
<div>
<u>{{},{{}}} </u></div>
<div>
<u>… </u></div>
<div>
<u> </u></div>
<div>
<u>Emptiness can mean “that which is not (yet) articulated or indicated”. </u></div>
<div>
<u>At the bottom of what is indicated is what is not indicated. </u></div>
<div>
<u>What is not indicated is not marked. </u></div>
<div>
<u>Emptiness is a word for what is not marked. </u></div>
<div>
<u> </u></div>
<div>
<u>Very best, </u></div>
<div>
<u>Lou </u></div>
<div>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<u>On Jan 18, 2025, at 3:05 PM, Pedro C. Marijuán <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" rel="noopener" target="_blank">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>> wrote: </u></div>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<u>Dear Lou and List, </u></div>
<div>
<u> </u></div>
<div>
<u>Thanks to you (and Eric) for the thought-provoking exchange. Along it, I was reminded of a maverick approach to distinctions I read long ago. It was pointing to a set with N elements carrying multiple "signs" or "marks". The distinctions between these elements carrying heterogeneous signs within the set were expressed by means of partitions, actually multidimensional partitions. Other related authors tried to systematically obtain and compile those multidimensional partitions via a few 'logical' principles (economy, parsimony, symmetry) applied to the pruning of redundant signs, and subsequently the 'canonical' multid.partitions could be obtained 'almost' algorithmically (at least for small N)... etc. etc. At least, in my non-mathematical mind I could make some practical sense of this distinctional stuff (in which I was interested regarding cellular signaling systems and the way receptors combinations were occupied by different signaling molecules). </u></div>
<div>
<u>I disagree with the closing statement (THE FORM WE TAKE TO EXIST ARISES FROM FRAMING NOTHING), because it situates itself above the conditions of any previous kind of existence. IMO it is a <span>Barón of Münchhausen's </span>type of statement. Maths as I pointed days ago inherit the inner dynamics of our sensorimotor transformations from which language developed. Maths, as it has often been recognized, is a particular form of collective language. It partakes of an enormous historical accumulation of thought-experimentation and pruning, particularly trying to capture the transformations of the external world. The implicit subject is always "us", the writer plus the concerned learned community of 'practitioners' of that particular math 'dialect'. And concerning distinctions, it obviously includes the possibility of entering into the scheme of other subjects (as Eric points) endowed with genuine distinctional capability--from living cells to... </u></div>
<div>
<u>Anyhow, in spite of the disagreement, your message was a great reading. Thanks for those GSB quotations. </u></div>
<div>
<u> </u></div>
<div>
<u>Concerning Kate's recent emphasis on E. coli's two component system in charge of motion control, the discoveries on prokaryotic signaling during last two decades have left a richer panorama. For instance, E. coli counts with about 100 one-component-systems (1CSs), 28 of the 2 CSs class, and just two of the 3 CSs (actually one of them is the motion control). The 1CSs are more simple and primitive (evolutionarily), and slower, with respect to the faster, more specific, and more evolved 2CSs, which in their turn are less complex and sophisticate than 3CSs, which are applied to the treatment of very important signals than need a further layer of intervening processes. It always depend on the whole advancement of the cell cycle, or life history, which endowment the bacterium will contain... Anyhow, the whole signaling panorama of 'primitive' cells is fascinating--it is indeed the beginning of biological sensing & communication. </u></div>
<div>
<u> </u></div>
<div>
<u>By the way, Jason, thanks for that amazing report on the proton innards. </u></div>
<div>
<u> </u></div>
<div>
<u>Greetings to all, </u></div>
<div>
<u>--Pedro </u></div>
<div>
<u> </u></div>
<div>
<u> </u></div>
<div>
<u>El 17/01/2025 a las 21:57, Louis Kauffman escribió: </u></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<u>Dear Eric, </u>
<div>
<u>There is a confusion here that is quite natural. </u></div>
<div>
<u>LOF is a book of mathematics and philosophy. It discusses the idea of a distinction. </u></div>
<div>
<u>When one takes a mathematical approach one attempts to begin with very simple structures and </u></div>
<div>
<u>explore outward into complexity. LOF dwells on the possibility of one distinction throughout the whole book. </u></div>
<div>
<u> </u></div>
<div>
<u>“We take as given the idea of distinction and the idea of indication </u></div>
<div>
<u>and that one cannot make an indication without drawing a distinction. </u></div>
<div>
<u>We take therefore the form of distinction for the form.” </u></div>
<div>
<u> </u></div>
<div>
<u>As such LOF is not concerned with where or how the distinction is made. </u></div>
<div>
<u>In the same way, a mathematics book about number is not concerned with particular representations of numbers. </u></div>
<div>
<u>Of course we have these concerns and we want to understand more and more about numbers in general </u></div>
<div>
<u>and we feel that some representations will help and some ways to use signs and symbols will help. </u></div>
<div>
<u>The same is the case with the idea of distinction. </u></div>
<div>
<u> </u></div>
<div>
<u>GSB does have his ontology (or lack thereof!). </u></div>
<div>
<u> </u></div>
<div>
<u>Some people are made a bit nervous by declarations that the world is created from nothing. </u></div>
<div>
<u>But you can investigate this if you are not annoyed by it. </u></div>
<div>
<u>What could ’things’ be ‘made of’? </u></div>
<div>
<u> </u></div>
<div>
<u>If you’re bothered, then you are bothered. </u></div>
<div>
<u>Mathematics is similarly annoying </u></div>
<div>
<u>as we have systematically shown </u></div>
<div>
<u>how to build it all from nothing </u></div>
<div>
<u>but the act of collecting/distinguishing </u></div>
<div>
<u>and the act of creating signs and indications. </u></div>
<div>
<u> </u></div>
<div>
<u>Everyone has their niche of ideas and ways that they want to continue to use. </u></div>
<div>
<u>In the approach of a big general idea, what we already “know" looks too good be abandoned, </u></div>
<div>
<u>and so we keep demanding that the other talk in our language. </u></div>
<div>
<u>GSB created new language. </u></div>
<div>
<u>Wittgenstein pointed out the ontological consequences of the limitations of language. </u></div>
<div>
<u>Both are very challenging. </u></div>
<div>
<u>Neither are making religions. </u></div>
<div>
<u>These are anti-religions. </u></div>
<div>
<u>Best, </u></div>
<div>
<u>Lou </u><br>
<div>
<u> </u></div>
<div>
<u>THE FORM WE TAKE TO EXIST ARISES FROM FRAMING NOTHING. </u></div>
<div>
<u> </u></div>
<div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<u>On Jan 17, 2025, at 6:19 AM, Eric Werner <<a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" rel="noopener" target="_blank">eric.werner@oarf.org</a>> wrote: </u></div>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<p>
<u>Dear Lou,</u></p>
<p>
<u>To point 4. Yes, I admit it was sarcasm. To me a distinction requires a subject. And that subject's neuro-hardware or firmware or software limits the distinctions that that subject can make. For example, the distinctions made by an ant, a frog, a cat or a human may be quite different. </u></p>
<p>
<u>I realize you are probably the world top expert on Spencer Brown so you probably have a reply. But my instinct is that GSB is claiming too much by using 'distinction' as an ONTOLOGICAL or metaphysical foundation for what requires a subjective capacity. OK, this last sentence is not fully clear, but I think GSB is confusing subject and being.</u></p>
<p>
<u>As for the sarcasm, it is a more personal emotional reaction having little to do with you. Although you may unknowingly have had a role in the matter through your publications. I have friends who study early Wittgenstein and GSB as if their texts were biblical texts. Going to the library every day to read the Tractatus and LOF like a disciple doing his or her religious studies. </u></p>
<p>
<u>At the onset of puberty and the ability to consciously reason, my mother took each of us into the kitchen and taught us to be critical of the bible, both the old and new testament. We were raised Christian but there were also Jews in my mother's ancestry. Who knows why, but I have maintained my religious skepticism and hence my perhaps inappropriate reaction when I smell religiosity. Apologies dear Lou.</u></p>
<p>
<u>In spite of my critical attitude, I do believe there is more to the universe. There may be a God or Gods and angels. There may be life after death. Life is always surprising. So, I am open to that.</u></p>
<p>
<u>-Eric</u></p>
</div>
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