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<p>Dear Lou and all,<br>
</p>
<p>I don't mean to trivialize the problem. </p>
<p>Lou and GSB (and many others) attempt to understand one of the
deepest problems of philosophy, science and our existence,
namely: </p>
<p>Why is there anything at all? <br>
</p>
<p>It is a question that has bothered me since it first came to me
when in 8th grade, never to have even remotely come up with a
solution. <br>
</p>
<p>That may explain my superficial remarks on religion. A kind of
self defense and helplessness when faced with the depth of the
problem. <br>
</p>
<p>So thank you Lou, and I am sure many of you as well, for trying
to face this dilemma of our coming to be, seemingly out of
nothing. <br>
</p>
<p>-Eric<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/19/25 5:18 PM, Eric Werner wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2E59BCD2-1B70-4228-A077-E4C4077C9C2E@oarf.org">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
The problem with with a religion. It’s not very practical for many
use cases it’s meant for tho eternal.
<div>In the beginning, it was the word and the word was God</div>
<div>Sound familiar?</div>
<div>Eric</div>
<div><br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature">
<div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Jan 19, 2025, at 16:01, Jason Hu
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jasonthegoodman@gmail.com"><jasonthegoodman@gmail.com></a> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">I
second Joe strongly here, "<b><span
style="font-size:16px"> </span><span
style="font-size:16px">they are a possibly
misleading way of describing natural physical
processes, including and especially cognition.</span><span
style="font-size:16px"> </span>"</b> </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">I
used to be a fan of Hofstadter's "Gedel, Escher, Bach"
in my younger years, but gradually started realizing
that type of thoughts might be an intellectual trap -
an endless rabbit hole that leads to just
self-entertainment or self-glory but no useful
actions, no tools for handyman to do everyday work to
benefit normal people. </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Well,
<b>"<span style="font-size:16px">I have just written
may not be completely correct (what is?)</span>" </b>so
I welcome any of you to prove me wrong or even change
my mind, by offering some solid example of how GSB
thinking has been beneficial to
solve/resolve/dissolve the huge conflicts going on in
the Middle East, or the deep divide among the
Americans between Trump supporters and Trump haters,
or the chaotic social issues in the U.K. and the
Europe. If no such examples exist so far, at least
point out to me how it could be, under what
conditions?</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Best
regards - Jason </div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jan 19, 2025
at 3:29 AM <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div> <span style="font-size:12pt">Dear Lou and
All,</span> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> <span style="font-size:12pt">Just some
comments to explain my resistence to GSB and
much of Lou's otherwise essential work: the
diagrams used do not nove; they are "eternal".
They accurately reflect <em>only epistemic
self-reference</em> and not recursion or
ontic hetero-reference. Therefore, they are a
possibly misleading way of describing natural
physical processes, including and especially
cognition. Information applies to the content of
the diagram below, but the mental "movement"
from figure to ground and back, and its logic,
is at a low level of complexity. Information
more broadly. however, is easily seen as a
dynamic phenomenon, embodying and describing <em>change.</em></span>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div> <span style="font-size:12pt">I submit that
what I have just written may not be completely
correct (what is?), but that it has received
insufficient serious attention. </span> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> <span style="font-size:12pt">Thank you and
best wishes,</span> </div>
<div> <span style="font-size:12pt">Joseph</span> </div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> Le 19.01.2025 02:08 CET, Louis Kauffman <<a
href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">loukau@gmail.com</a>>
a écrit : </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Dear Karl, </div>
<div>
<div><VasesFaces copy.png></div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div> Background. </div>
<div> Figure and Ground. </div>
Yes.
<div> And in starting with the idea of a
distinction one needs to have an unfettered
notion of background.
<div> That notion is emptiness. </div>
<div> The empty set is placed against a
background of non-membership and it has no
members. </div>
<div>
{ } </div>
<div> The GSB mark is a relative of the empty
set and stands for a distinction and for that
state obtained by crossing from emptiness </div>
<div> (the first distinction, if you will.) </div>
<div>
<div><Mark.png></div>
</div>
<div> As soon as one fixes on a representation
of a concept, that representation has more
properties, more inherent and indicated
distinctions, than the concept “itself”. </div>
<div> Thus the curly brackets of the
representation of the empty set, { }, are not
necessary for the concept. And the right angle
bracket is not necessary for the mark. </div>
<div> We sometimes use < > for the mark as
it is useful in typing, but execrable as an
icon since < > is two characters
representing one distinction. And so it goes.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div> It is in fact very powerful to understand
the backgrounds that are appropriate for
discourse and keep them as minimal as
possible. </div>
<div> In LOF, GSB uses the notational plane as a
background, not the line. </div>
<div> This has some eplstemological advantages
and some drawbacks. </div>
<div> After studying any indication set-up it is
useful to examine what kind of background is
being used. </div>
<div> Mathematical advances and scientific
advances have resulted from such scrutiny. </div>
<div> At the level of the Heart Sutra the
concept of emptiness can be the basis for
(everything). </div>
<div> Very best, </div>
<div> Lou </div>
<div> </div>
<div> <br>
<div> <br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> On Jan 18, 2025, at 3:55 PM, Karl
Javorszky <<a
href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>>
wrote: </div>
<div>
<div dir="auto"> Remark: this is usually
called BACKGROUND. </div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">
Louis Kauffman <<a
href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">loukau@gmail.com</a>>
schrieb am Sa., 18. Jän. 2025,
22:43: </div>
<blockquote>
<div
style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">
Dear Pedro,
<div> It depends on how you look
at it. </div>
<div> Consider the Heart Sutra. </div>
<div> <br>
<div>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div
style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div>
<div>
<div> <br>
<br>
In Mathematics, all forms
are brought forth from
emptiness. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> { } </div>
<div> {{}} </div>
<div> {{},{{}}} </div>
<div> … </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Emptiness can mean “that
which is not (yet)
articulated or indicated”. </div>
<div> At the bottom of what is
indicated is what is not
indicated. </div>
<div> What is not indicated is
not marked. </div>
<div> Emptiness is a word for
what is not marked. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Very best, </div>
<div> Lou </div>
<div> <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> On Jan 18, 2025, at
3:05 PM, Pedro C.
Marijuán <<a
href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" rel="noopener" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>> wrote: </div>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<div> Dear Lou and
List, </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Thanks to you
(and Eric) for the
thought-provoking
exchange. Along it,
I was reminded of a
maverick approach to
distinctions I read
long ago. It was
pointing to a set
with N elements
carrying multiple
"signs" or "marks".
The distinctions
between these
elements carrying
heterogeneous signs
within the set were
expressed by means
of partitions,
actually
multidimensional
partitions. Other
related authors
tried to
systematically
obtain and compile
those
multidimensional
partitions via a few
'logical' principles
(economy, parsimony,
symmetry) applied to
the pruning of
redundant signs, and
subsequently the
'canonical'
multid.partitions
could be obtained
'almost'
algorithmically (at
least for small
N)... etc. etc. At
least, in my
non-mathematical
mind I could make
some practical sense
of this
distinctional stuff
(in which I was
interested regarding
cellular signaling
systems and the way
receptors
combinations were
occupied by
different signaling
molecules). </div>
<div> I disagree with
the closing
statement (THE FORM
WE TAKE TO EXIST
ARISES FROM FRAMING
NOTHING), because it
situates itself
above the conditions
of any previous kind
of existence. IMO it
is a <span>Barón of
Münchhausen's </span>type
of statement. Maths
as I pointed days
ago inherit the
inner dynamics of
our sensorimotor
transformations from
which language
developed. Maths, as
it has often been
recognized, is a
particular form of
collective language.
It partakes of an
enormous historical
accumulation of
thought-experimentation
and pruning,
particularly trying
to capture the
transformations of
the external world.
The implicit subject
is always "us", the
writer plus the
concerned learned
community of
'practitioners' of
that particular math
'dialect'. And
concerning
distinctions, it
obviously includes
the possibility of
entering into the
scheme of other
subjects (as Eric
points) endowed with
genuine
distinctional
capability--from
living cells to... </div>
<div> Anyhow, in spite
of the disagreement,
your message was a
great reading.
Thanks for those GSB
quotations. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Concerning
Kate's recent
emphasis on E.
coli's two component
system in charge of
motion control, the
discoveries on
prokaryotic
signaling during
last two decades
have left a richer
panorama. For
instance, E. coli
counts with about
100
one-component-systems
(1CSs), 28 of the 2
CSs class, and just
two of the 3 CSs
(actually one of
them is the motion
control). The 1CSs
are more simple and
primitive
(evolutionarily),
and slower, with
respect to the
faster, more
specific, and more
evolved 2CSs, which
in their turn are
less complex and
sophisticate than
3CSs, which are
applied to the
treatment of very
important signals
than need a further
layer of intervening
processes. It always
depend on the whole
advancement of the
cell cycle, or life
history, which
endowment the
bacterium will
contain... Anyhow,
the whole signaling
panorama of
'primitive' cells is
fascinating--it is
indeed the beginning
of biological
sensing &
communication. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> By the way,
Jason, thanks for
that amazing report
on the proton
innards. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Greetings to
all, </div>
<div> --Pedro </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> El 17/01/2025 a
las 21:57, Louis
Kauffman escribió: </div>
<blockquote
type="cite"> Dear
Eric,
<div> There is a
confusion here
that is quite
natural. </div>
<div> LOF is a book
of mathematics and
philosophy. It
discusses the idea
of a distinction.
</div>
<div> When one takes
a mathematical
approach one
attempts to begin
with very simple
structures and </div>
<div> explore
outward into
complexity. LOF
dwells on the
possibility of one
distinction
throughout the
whole book. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> “We take as
given the idea of
distinction and
the idea of
indication </div>
<div> and that one
cannot make an
indication without
drawing a
distinction. </div>
<div> We take
therefore the form
of distinction for
the form.” </div>
<div> </div>
<div> As such LOF is
not concerned with
where or how the
distinction is
made. </div>
<div> In the same
way, a mathematics
book about number
is not concerned
with particular
representations of
numbers. </div>
<div> Of course we
have these
concerns and we
want to understand
more and more
about numbers in
general </div>
<div> and we feel
that some
representations
will help and some
ways to use signs
and symbols will
help. </div>
<div> The same is
the case with the
idea of
distinction. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> GSB does have
his ontology (or
lack thereof!). </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Some people
are made a bit
nervous by
declarations that
the world is
created from
nothing. </div>
<div> But you can
investigate this
if you are not
annoyed by it. </div>
<div> What could
’things’ be ‘made
of’? </div>
<div> </div>
<div> If you’re
bothered, then you
are bothered. </div>
<div> Mathematics is
similarly
annoying </div>
<div> as we have
systematically
shown </div>
<div> how to build
it all from
nothing </div>
<div> but the act of
collecting/distinguishing </div>
<div> and the act of
creating signs and
indications. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Everyone has
their niche of
ideas and ways
that they want to
continue to use.
</div>
<div> In the
approach of a big
general idea, what
we already “know"
looks too good be
abandoned, </div>
<div> and so we keep
demanding that the
other talk in our
language. </div>
<div> GSB created
new language. </div>
<div> Wittgenstein
pointed out the
ontological
consequences of
the limitations of
language. </div>
<div> Both are very
challenging. </div>
<div> Neither are
making religions.
</div>
<div> These are
anti-religions. </div>
<div> Best, </div>
<div> Lou <br>
<div> </div>
<div> THE FORM WE
TAKE TO EXIST
ARISES FROM
FRAMING NOTHING.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div> <br>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div> On Jan
17, 2025, at
6:19 AM, Eric
Werner <<a
href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" rel="noopener" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">eric.werner@oarf.org</a>>
wrote: </div>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<p>Dear Lou,</p>
<p>To point 4.
Yes, I admit
it was
sarcasm. To me
a distinction
requires a
subject. And
that subject's
neuro-hardware
or firmware or
software
limits the
distinctions
that that
subject can
make. For
example, the
distinctions
made by an
ant, a frog, a
cat or a human
may be quite
different. </p>
<p>I realize
you are
probably the
world top
expert on
Spencer Brown
so you
probably have
a reply. But
my instinct is
that GSB is
claiming too
much by using
'distinction'
as an
ONTOLOGICAL or
metaphysical
foundation for
what requires
a subjective
capacity. OK,
this last
sentence is
not fully
clear, but I
think GSB is
confusing
subject and
being.</p>
<p>As for the
sarcasm, it is
a more
personal
emotional
reaction
having little
to do with
you. Although
you may
unknowingly
have had a
role in the
matter through
your
publications.
I have friends
who study
early
Wittgenstein
and GSB as if
their texts
were biblical
texts. Going
to the library
every day to
read the
Tractatus and
LOF like a
disciple doing
his or her
religious
studies. </p>
<p>At the
onset of
puberty and
the ability to
consciously
reason, my
mother took
each of us
into the
kitchen and
taught us to
be critical of
the bible,
both the old
and new
testament. We
were raised
Christian but
there were
also Jews in
my mother's
ancestry. Who
knows why, but
I have
maintained my
religious
skepticism and
hence my
perhaps
inappropriate
reaction when
I smell
religiosity.
Apologies dear
Lou.</p>
<p>In spite of
my critical
attitude, I do
believe there
is more to the
universe.
There may be a
God or Gods
and angels.
There may be
life after
death. Life is
always
surprising.
So, I am open
to that.</p>
<p>-Eric</p>
<span
style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span> </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
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Zaragoza. <br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como
tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a
href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
<br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista
voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia
aplicación en el momento en que lo desee. <br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
<br>
---------- </blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>
----------<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER
PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de
correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como
tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a
href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria
Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en
el momento en que lo desee.<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>
----------<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span>Fis mailing list</span><br>
<span><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a></span><br>
<span><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a></span><br>
<span>----------</span><br>
<span>INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER
PERSONAL</span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de
correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.</span><br>
<span>Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como
tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a></span><br>
<span>Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria
Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el
momento en que lo desee.</span><br>
<span><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es">http://listas.unizar.es</a></span><br>
<span>----------</span><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
----------
</pre>
</blockquote>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<i>
Dr. Eric Werner, FLS <br>
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WhlhKYVcpsgfg-h5ncGjLXFfB1PP_kliq0_PIUUJgmVjQpVlTDrf5ZNxFXZv15paB6X_cr5ULAt7OwIT91RHNEw$">https://oarf.org</a> <br>
<br>
<br>
</i></div>
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