<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Dear Karl,</div><div class=""><img apple-inline="yes" id="A5AB46E0-B618-433C-B008-AC40B1FD2EA6" width="440" height="445" src="cid:43EC8166-CD02-48AA-B011-1641BA0F8E3F" class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Background.</div><div class="">Figure and Ground.</div>Yes. <div class="">And in starting with the idea of a distinction one needs to have an unfettered notion of background.<div class="">That notion is emptiness.</div><div class="">The empty set is placed against a background of non-membership and it has no members.</div><div class=""> { }</div><div class="">The GSB mark is a relative of the empty set and stands for a distinction and for that state obtained by crossing from emptiness</div><div class="">(the first distinction, if you will.)</div><div class=""><img apple-inline="yes" id="59917430-0B43-4DDE-A668-F1209D410F0B" width="107" height="105" src="cid:1AF28270-2843-446D-B9CB-D44D9C1C5041" class=""></div><div class="">As soon as one fixes on a representation of a concept, that representation has more properties, more inherent and indicated distinctions, than the concept “itself”.</div><div class="">Thus the curly brackets of the representation of the empty set, { }, are not necessary for the concept. And the right angle bracket is not necessary for the mark.</div><div class="">We sometimes use < > for the mark as it is useful in typing, but execrable as an icon since < > is two characters representing one distinction. And so it goes.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It is in fact very powerful to understand the backgrounds that are appropriate for discourse and keep them as minimal as possible. </div><div class="">In LOF, GSB uses the notational plane as a background, not the line. </div><div class="">This has some eplstemological advantages and some drawbacks. </div><div class="">After studying any indication set-up it is useful to examine what kind of background is being used. </div><div class="">Mathematical advances and scientific advances have resulted from such scrutiny.</div><div class="">At the level of the Heart Sutra the concept of emptiness can be the basis for (everything).</div><div class="">Very best,</div><div class="">Lou</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 18, 2025, at 3:55 PM, Karl Javorszky <<a href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" class="">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="auto" class="">Remark: this is usually called BACKGROUND. </div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Louis Kauffman <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" class="">loukau@gmail.com</a>> schrieb am Sa., 18. Jän. 2025, 22:43:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class="">Dear Pedro,<div class="">It depends on how you look at it.</div><div class="">Consider the Heart Sutra.</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><div class=""></div></div></div></div><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""><br class="">In Mathematics, all forms are brought forth from emptiness.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">{ }</div><div class="">{{}}</div><div class="">{{},{{}}}</div><div class="">…</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Emptiness can mean “that which is not (yet) articulated or indicated”.</div><div class="">At the bottom of what is indicated is what is not indicated.</div><div class="">What is not indicated is not marked.</div><div class="">Emptiness is a word for what is not marked.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Very best,</div><div class="">Lou</div><div class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 18, 2025, at 3:05 PM, Pedro C. Marijuán <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">Dear Lou and List,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thanks to you (and Eric) for the
thought-provoking exchange. Along it, I was reminded of a maverick
approach to distinctions I read long ago. It was pointing to a set
with N elements carrying multiple "signs" or "marks". The
distinctions between these elements carrying heterogeneous signs
within the set were expressed by means of partitions, actually
multidimensional partitions. Other related authors tried to
systematically obtain and compile those multidimensional
partitions via a few 'logical' principles (economy, parsimony,
symmetry) applied to the pruning of redundant signs, and
subsequently the 'canonical' multid.partitions could be obtained
'almost' algorithmically (at least for small N)... etc. etc. At
least, in my non-mathematical mind I could make some practical
sense of this distinctional stuff (in which I was interested
regarding cellular signaling systems and the way receptors
combinations were occupied by different signaling molecules). </div>
<div class="">I disagree with the closing statement
(THE FORM WE TAKE TO EXIST ARISES FROM FRAMING NOTHING), because
it situates itself above the conditions of any previous kind of
existence. IMO it is a <span class="">Barón of Münchhausen's </span>type
of statement. Maths as I pointed days ago inherit the inner
dynamics of our sensorimotor transformations from which language
developed. Maths, as it has often been recognized, is a particular
form of collective language. It partakes of an enormous historical
accumulation of thought-experimentation and pruning, particularly
trying to capture the transformations of the external world. The
implicit subject is always "us", the writer plus the concerned
learned community of 'practitioners' of that particular math
'dialect'. And concerning distinctions, it obviously includes the
possibility of entering into the scheme of other subjects (as Eric
points) endowed with genuine distinctional capability--from living
cells to...</div>
<div class="">Anyhow, in spite of the disagreement,
your message was a great reading. Thanks for those GSB quotations.<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Concerning Kate's recent emphasis on E.
coli's two component system in charge of motion control, the
discoveries on prokaryotic signaling during last two decades have
left a richer panorama. For instance, E. coli counts with about
100 one-component-systems (1CSs), 28 of the 2 CSs class, and just
two of the 3 CSs (actually one of them is the motion control). The
1CSs are more simple and primitive (evolutionarily), and
slower, with respect to the faster, more specific, and more
evolved 2CSs, which in their turn are less complex and
sophisticate than 3CSs, which are applied to the treatment of very
important signals than need a further layer of intervening
processes. It always depend on the whole advancement of the cell
cycle, or life history, which endowment the bacterium will
contain... Anyhow, the whole signaling panorama of 'primitive'
cells is fascinating--it is indeed the beginning of biological
sensing & communication.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">By the way, Jason, thanks for that
amazing report on the proton innards.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Greetings to all,</div>
<div class="">--Pedro<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">El 17/01/2025 a las 21:57, Louis
Kauffman escribió:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
Dear Eric,
<div class="">There is a confusion here that is quite natural.</div>
<div class="">LOF is a book of mathematics and philosophy. It
discusses the idea of a distinction.</div>
<div class="">When one takes a mathematical approach one attempts
to begin with very simple structures and </div>
<div class="">explore outward into complexity. LOF dwells on the
possibility of one distinction throughout the whole book.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">“We take as given the idea of distinction and the
idea of indication </div>
<div class="">and that one cannot make an indication without
drawing a distinction. </div>
<div class="">We take therefore the form of distinction for the
form.”</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">As such LOF is not concerned with where or how the
distinction is made.</div>
<div class="">In the same way, a mathematics book about number is
not concerned with particular representations of numbers.</div>
<div class="">Of course we have these concerns and we want to
understand more and more about numbers in general</div>
<div class="">and we feel that some representations will help and
some ways to use signs and symbols will help. </div>
<div class="">The same is the case with the idea of distinction. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">GSB does have his ontology (or lack thereof!). </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Some people are made a bit nervous by declarations
that the world is created from nothing. </div>
<div class="">But you can investigate this if you are not annoyed
by it.</div>
<div class="">What could ’things’ be ‘made of’? </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If you’re bothered, then you are bothered.</div>
<div class="">Mathematics is similarly annoying </div>
<div class="">as we have systematically shown </div>
<div class="">how to build it all from nothing </div>
<div class="">but the act of collecting/distinguishing </div>
<div class="">and the act of creating signs and indications.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Everyone has their niche of ideas and ways that they
want to continue to use. </div>
<div class="">In the approach of a big general idea, what we
already “know" looks too good be abandoned, </div>
<div class="">and so we keep demanding that the other talk in our
language.</div>
<div class="">GSB created new language. </div>
<div class="">Wittgenstein pointed out the ontological
consequences of the limitations of language. </div>
<div class="">Both are very challenging. </div>
<div class="">Neither are making religions. </div>
<div class="">These are anti-religions.</div>
<div class="">Best,</div>
<div class="">Lou<br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">THE FORM WE TAKE TO EXIST ARISES FROM FRAMING NOTHING.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jan 17, 2025, at 6:19 AM, Eric Werner <<a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">eric.werner@oarf.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><p class="">Dear Lou,</p><p class="">To point 4. Yes, I admit it was sarcasm. To
me a distinction requires a subject. And that
subject's neuro-hardware or firmware or software
limits the distinctions that that subject can make.
For example, the distinctions made by an ant, a frog,
a cat or a human may be quite different. </p><p class="">I realize you are probably the world top
expert on Spencer Brown so you probably have a reply.
But my instinct is that GSB is claiming too much by
using 'distinction' as an ONTOLOGICAL or metaphysical
foundation for what requires a subjective capacity.
OK, this last sentence is not fully clear, but I think
GSB is confusing subject and being. <br class="">
</p><p class="">As for the sarcasm, it is a more personal
emotional reaction having little to do with you.
Although you may unknowingly have had a role in the
matter through your publications. I have friends who
study early Wittgenstein and GSB as if their texts
were biblical texts. Going to the library every day to
read the Tractatus and LOF like a disciple doing his
or her religious studies. </p><p class="">At the onset of puberty and the ability to
consciously reason, my mother took each of us into the
kitchen and taught us to be critical of the bible,
both the old and new testament. We were raised
Christian but there were also Jews in my mother's
ancestry. Who knows why, but I have maintained my
religious skepticism and hence my perhaps
inappropriate reaction when I smell religiosity.
Apologies dear Lou. <br class="">
</p><p class="">In spite of my critical attitude, I do
believe there is more to the universe. There may be a
God or Gods and angels. There may be life after
death. Life is always surprising. So, I am open to
that. <br class="">
</p><p class="">-Eric<br class="">
</p>
<span style="white-space:pre-wrap" class="">
</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
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