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<p>Dear Lou,</p>
<p>To point 4. Yes, I admit it was sarcasm. To me a distinction
requires a subject. And that subject's neuro-hardware or firmware
or software limits the distinctions that that subject can make.
For example, the distinctions made by an ant, a frog, a cat or a
human may be quite different. </p>
<p>I realize you are probably the world top expert on Spencer Brown
so you probably have a reply. But my instinct is that GSB is
claiming too much by using 'distinction' as an ONTOLOGICAL or
metaphysical foundation for what requires a subjective capacity.
OK, this last sentence is not fully clear, but I think GSB is
confusing subject and being. <br>
</p>
<p>As for the sarcasm, it is a more personal emotional reaction
having little to do with you. Although you may unknowingly have
had a role in the matter through your publications. I have
friends who study early Wittgenstein and GSB as if their texts
were biblical texts. Going to the library every day to read the
Tractatus and LOF like a disciple doing his or her religious
studies. </p>
<p>At the onset of puberty and the ability to consciously reason, my
mother took each of us into the kitchen and taught us to be
critical of the bible, both the old and new testament. We were
raised Christian but there were also Jews in my mother's ancestry.
Who knows why, but I have maintained my religious skepticism and
hence my perhaps inappropriate reaction when I smell religiosity.
Apologies dear Lou. <br>
</p>
<p>In spite of my critical attitude, I do believe there is more to
the universe. There may be a God or Gods and angels. There may be
life after death. Life is always surprising. So, I am open to
that. <br>
</p>
<p>-Eric<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/16/25 6:58 PM, Louis Kauffman
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CE2B4F99-621C-47C0-9472-E9BA1CE1522E@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
Comments in Text.<br class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jan 16, 2025, at 10:35 AM, Eric Werner <<a
href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">eric.werner@oarf.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class="">
<p class="">Dear Lou and Kate and all,</p>
<p class="">To point 1. There are those fascinating
studies of pathologies of disconnection between the
right (holistic) and the left (linear) ideations.</p>
<p class="">2. The probability that what you are
suggesting will be followed has low frequency.</p>
<div class="">[I have no idea what you mean here. The
values of the probability and the corresponding
frequencies in QM can range arbitrarily high or low.]</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class="">3. Of course, human perception includes
unconscious processing. In fact most of it is
unconscious. Does the ant perceive the full moon? How is
perception related to the complexity of neural
processing in the brain? Are there degrees of perceiving
the same object or event by different agents of
different neural structure and complexity? <br class="">
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
[yes]<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class=""> </p>
<p class="">4. Sorry I get all emotional when I see the
lack of distinctions in GSB</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
[Sarcasm? Not appropriate. I would be interested in what you
mean here. Then we would have something to discuss.]<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class="">Wittgenstein version 2 would perhaps not
agree with Wittgenstein version 2 where he allows a much
broader range of function and what can be expressed in
language and its games. <br class="">
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
[Yes. But I refer to parts of W1 that do not really depend on
his “picture theory’.]<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class=""> </p>
<p class="">5. 'O' my God we have entered religion. As
the country singer disparages her partner-husband when
she croons "You say it best when you say nothing at
all." Poor guy. But more seriously, Lou, do you really
think "All of language collapses into the meaning of a
single word or sign," ? The problem is that recursion
generates repetition and the lack of sufficient
meaningful content whether it be in conversation of the
development of embryos. <br class="">
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
[I point out that the concept of distinction goes across the
board. In that sense we can have one word or one symbol that
stands for any distinction. It is not a religion.]<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class=""> </p>
<p class="">But, Kate, I do think that emotions are not
binary and rather continuous gradations and
multidimensional. Would such an assumption be
deleterious to your overall theoretical stance. Your
remarks on cell signalling and the approach-avoidance
theme may hold at that level of ontology but seems to
fail at higher levels of more complex systems and
beings. <br class="">
</p>
<p class="">And hats off to Stu and the problem of
assuming a well defined phase space of what is possible.
It points to problems with the foundations of
probability theory. <br class="">
</p>
<p class="">And yes Pedro thanks for points about meaning
and action which relates to Wittgenstein version 2. <br
class="">
</p>
<p class="">Thank you for the motivating discussion Lou,</p>
<p class="">Eric<br class="">
</p>
<p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/14/25 2:58 AM, Louis
Kauffman wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:BB1C8C4D-A8C5-4144-82F1-F4F4D80D2C60@gmail.com" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
Dear Kate,
<div class="">I have questions and comments.</div>
<div class="">1. While the notions of right and left
hemispheres are useful to summarize certain aspects, I
actually do not know what is really meant when people
use those words.</div>
<div class="">So it would be better in communicating
with me, a mathematician who needs definitions
whenever possible, to rewrite statements without those
metaphors.</div>
<div class="">2. I do not want the word probability
unless you can tell me what you are counting. If you
cannot tell, then please speak of frequencies. Same
for so called probability in QM.</div>
<div class="">3. Perception does not include unconscious
processing, but unconcious processing can affect
perception. Perception is accompanied by awareness,
often by consciousness.</div>
<div class="">This is how I use the word perception. My
camera does not perceive the sunset. I perceive the
photo produced by the camera and I am involved in the
taking of photos by the camera.</div>
<div class="">Of course, I can set the camera to taking
photos automatically. No perception occurs until I see
them or you see them. But registration does occur.
These issues are related to QM as well.</div>
<div class="">The cat registers and is dead or alive at
the end of the hour. I find out. But the potentia have
come to rest before I find out because the cat is
corporeal.</div>
<div class="">4. Do you feel that all awareness is
related to emotions? GSB says every distinction is
associated with motive. So maybe. Feeling is more
general then emotion in my ways of speaking.</div>
<div class="">Feeling has to do with going outside given
language and meaning to a wider and not defined domain
from which we return with possibly new ways of
speaking. This is for me what Wittgenstein is
speaking </div>
<div class="">about when he says “Whereof one cannot
speak one must be silent.”, and then new speaking can
emerge, but NOT from a “hierarchy of languages” as
Russell said in his introduction to W’s Tractatus, but
by going beneath language to </div>
<div class="">Its source.</div>
<div class="">5. In relation to 4. C.S.Peirce had the
idea of a “sign for itself” that emerged from the ever
expanding hierarchy of a person’s language. There is a
truth in that. One can also see an icon, such as O, as
a sign for itself when seen as both a distinction and
a sign for a distinction. But then the sign O is
enveloped in the interpretant that would see it that
way. And we only understand the interpretant in terms
of the ever expanding hierarchy of our language. The O
is like a “quantum particle”. It takes the whole
universe of </div>
<div class="">discourse to disclose its meaning. All of
language collapses into the meaning of a single word
or sign.</div>
<div class="">Best,</div>
<div class="">Lou</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jan 13, 2025, at 3:57 PM,
Katherine Peil <<a
href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">ktpeil@outlook.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta charset="UTF-8" class="">
<div class="WordSection1"
style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><b class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p
class=""> </o:p></span></b></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Thank
you so much Lou.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Self-reference
is something very deep indeed, perhaps
fundamentally located at the nexus of
subject~object itself (in terms of
geometry and association with quantum
physics). The step from the Peircian
triangle to<b class=""><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>George
Spencer-Brown’s observer intervention and
wavefunction collapse seems to be in this
territory. Self-reference as being the
perfect circle, representing the emergence
from a sea of possibilities the
probabilistic manifestation of percept and
concept in one lovely unit.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p
class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">From
a psychological perspective, however,
perception is a different can of worms,
distinct from (but related to<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i
class="">physical sensory stimulus)</i><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>and
the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i
class="">embodied response</i>.
Behaviorism noted the stimulus-response
coupling (and its essential role in
learning), but remained intentionally
blind to any internal cognitive processing
inside the proverbial Black Box.
Perception can be defined as everything
happening inside that Black Box,
everything between that stimulus and
response, and the more neurally endowed
the creature, the more the perceptual
processing involved. Unlike the perfect
zero, it can be reasonably accurate or
riddled with error. This is why some
self-referential feedback is required in
the stimulus itself.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p
class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">This
marks the distinction between affective
computations and cognitive computations.
Affective computations specifically
concern the self, they feel either good or
bad, offering evaluative feedback about
the self within its local physical
environment and they trigger direct
stimulus-response behavior. The stream of
emotional information came first and still
provides primary behavioral motivation. No
observation no qualia? I agree but add no
sensory stimulus, no percept!<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
class="">
<br class="">
Ian McGlichest’s work in the dual yet
interacting functions of the left and
right brain hemispheres is instructive
here as well. Music, maths, non-verbal
wholism, creative “unconscious”, intuitive
capacities and all imaginable
possibilities…… and emotion…collectively
dwell in the right hemisphere – the Master
to the left-brain emissary where complex
linguistic perceptual processing occurs.<o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Kate
Kauffman<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div
id="mail-editor-reference-message-container"
class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">On 1/12/25, 9:39 PM,
"Stuart Kauffman" <<a
href="mailto:stukauffman@gmail.com"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">stukauffman@gmail.com</a>>
wrote: Katherine Peil Kauffman<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><br class="">
Thank you both,<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">Stu<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="">
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">On Jan 12, 2025, at
8:52<span
style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=""> </span>PM, Louis
Kauffman <<a
href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">loukau@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">Dear Katherine<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">I do not yet take
the step to “explain” how to
go from percept to concept.<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">The point I
inhabit is prior to that.<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">In every
situation where you have
percept you also have
concept.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">They arise
together for you.<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">Possibly not with
the good concept you are
searching for.<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">For example,
consider the way the
perception of Saturn’s
rings first appeared as
lune-like patterns on the
orb of the planet.<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">The better
concept of rings took some
time.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">But every time
there is a perception
there is at the very least
some concept, some
description and it is from
this place of
percept/concept together
that we proceed.<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">From there you
may or may not conclude
that there is no way to
reduce percept to concept
and there is no way to
reduce concept to percept.<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">That is my
position as a working
position.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">Experience
provides evidence that
there is much more to the
concurrence. In typing I
can accomplish the task
without looking at the
keys.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">I have no
training in this. I found
that eventually I did it.
I do not know how it works
or why it is reliable. If
you asked me which fingers
make which letters, I
could not answer.<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">The same goes for
improvisation on my
clarinet, but there I do
keep conscious track of
the key and some other
contextual information.
Then my “fingers” do the
rest in feedback with ear
and brain.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">LeDoux has an
important point and I
would like to know how he
links the Cognitive
Computations with the
Affective Computations. In
music practice we do this
very deliberately, but in
performance <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">(also part of
practice) we let it
happen. Music seems to
begin with the affective.
Doing mathematics seems to
often begin in the
cognitive, but achieves
new creation at the nexus
of cognitive and affective
levels.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">This is why many
people gravitate to
geometry. And the
Pythagoreans knew that
music and geometry were
one.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">Steiner in his
early work focused on the
self-reference of "thought
thinking thought” which I
take to be at the nexus of
concept and percept. <o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">In logical and
pre logical work it helps
to use signs iconically.<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">Thus a circle
such as O can stand for a
distinction and we can
“see” that the circle
itself makes a distinction
in the plane.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">Thus the circle O
is seen to refer to
itself.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">In this
self-reference the
Peircian Triangle<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">
Interpretant<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">
Signifier
Signified<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">Collapses to. <o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">
Interpretant<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">
O<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">The O does not
have a separate meaning
from its interpretant.<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">This leads George
Spencer-Brown to declaim:<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
id="cid:84709B7E-342D-4BDA-9B07-05F654C166CA" class=""><GSBMarkObserverQuote.png></span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">I suggest that
this situation is imaged
in the orthodox form of
quantum measurement where
the smooth and determinate
evolution of the wave
function is<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">Interrupted by
the mark of observation.
Without an observer there
is no distinction and the
world unseen evolves in
potentia. With an observer
comes<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">percept and
concept and all the rest.
When I was 16 I called the
potentia the “guarded
source of the discrete”.
Can’t do any better yet.<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">Best,<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">Lou<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="">
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">On Jan 12,
2025, at 5:21 PM,
Katherine Peil <<a
href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">ktpeil@outlook.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Thanks
Pedro – great
to hear from
you. A quick
comment on:</span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><b
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">….
I see a
problem going
from "percepts
to concepts"
as Lou claims <br
class="">
below.
Neuroscience
has nowadays a
rare consensus
on not
dissociating <br
class="">
PERCEPTION and
ACTION. The
"Action
Perception
Cycle"…</span></b><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">From
the view of
emotion
science, this
reflects a
neurocentric
problem
wherein
“cognition”
(perceptual
processing)
confounds<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">sensations that lead
to actions</i><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>– embodied emotional sensations
that came on
the
evolutionary
stage well
before nerve
nets or
brains. It is
emotion that
is central to
action,
behavior and
motivation.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Neuroscientist
Jospeh LeDoux
made this key
distinction:</span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><b
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Cognitive
computations</span></b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">:
Reflective,
conscious,
goal-directed
thought, often
linked to
areas of the
brain involved
in higher
cognitive
functions.</span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><b
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Affective
computations</span></b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">:
Automatic,
unconscious,
emotional
processing,
often linked
to areas of
the brain
involved in
emotional
regulation and
survival
mechanisms.
They always
concern “the
self” and the
lead to
actions.</span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""> </span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">I
can paraphrase
his example…”
there is a
huge
experiential
difference
between the
thought that a
snake is a
reptile, that
its skin can
be made into
belts and
shoes, and the
thought that a
snake is
likely to be
dangerous.”</span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""> </span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Recall
my claim that
emotion in its
simplest
binary form –
akin to
pleasure or
pain - carries
the
foundational
semantic
information
bit that
undergirds all
learning
systems, but
emerges from
the dynamics
and logic of
genetic,
epigenetic and
immune
regulation.
The
Perception-Action-Cycle
relies on the
emotional
component, so
IMHO Lou is
still on safe
and important
new ground.</span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""> </span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Kate
Kauffman</span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""> </span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""> </span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div
id="mail-editor-reference-message-container" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">On
1/12/25, 2:59
PM, "Fis" <<a
href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>>
wrote:
Katherine Peil
Kauffman<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
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Today's
Topics:<br
class="">
<br class="">
1. Re: LOF
Friday (Pedro
C. Mariju?n)<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br
class="">
<br class="">
Message: 1<br
class="">
Date: Sun, 12
Jan 2025
22:58:21 +0100<br
class="">
From: Pedro C.
Mariju?n <<a
href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>><br
class="">
To:<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br
class="">
Subject: Re:
[Fis] LOF
Friday<br
class="">
Message-ID:
<<a
href="mailto:d93cbae2-038d-4733-8071-4f7b93a4f6d6@gmail.com"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">d93cbae2-038d-4733-8071-4f7b93a4f6d6@gmail.com</a>><br
class="">
Content-Type:
text/plain;
charset="utf-8";
Format="flowed"<br class="">
<br class="">
Dear List,<br
class="">
<br class="">
Please, take
care to post
properly (as
the server
automatically<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
demands), as
otherwise I
become rather
overwhelmed
wit all the
different<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
warning
messages.
Thanks Lou for
the tip about
that.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Well, I see a
problem going
from "percepts
to concepts"
as Lou claims<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
below.
Neuroscience
has nowadays a
rare consensus
on not
dissociating<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
PERCEPTION and
ACTION. The
"Action
Perception
Cycle" is the
most common<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
acceptation.
The "concept"
gets? not too
far from
either side,
and<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
usually it is
incorporating
elements of
each kind,
with different<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
predominance.
Joaqu?n Fuster
(2008 and 2014
I think)
coined the
term<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
"cognit" to
refer to the
intermediate
stage, having
both percept
ears<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
and action
legs (so to
speak). The
union of
cognits legs
and ears (or<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
legs and legs,
ears and ears,
etc.) would
give birth to
different
kinds<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
of concepts,
and the union
of concepts
via shared
cognits would
give<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
rise to
conceptualizations,
sentences,
etc. Having
entered action
in the<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
world scheme
is not trivial
at all. Our
litmus test
for reality is
not<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
that the
percept agrees
with the
concept, but
with the
action. It is,
as<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
we consider in
the world of
science, the
whole
experimental
part... the<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
"fact". As
Goethe's Faust
aptly says:
"In the
beginning was
the deed"!<br
class="">
<br class="">
My other brief
pill refers
again to
autopoiesis. A
few cellular<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
arguments not
well tolerated
(or only
partially some
of them) by<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
autopoiesis:<br
class="">
<br class="">
--The enormous
cellular
importance of
protein
degradation.
The world of<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
proteasomes
(the cell
"industry of
destruction")
is
fascinating,
even in<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
the simplest
cells.<br
class="">
--The
different
classes of
programmed
cell death,
essentially
apoptosis,<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
is also of
enormous
multicell--and
even
bacterial--
importance.<br
class="">
--The
absorption of
external DNA
is quite
frequent, and
even customary<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
in some
bacteria.<br
class="">
--The
horizontal
gene
transmission
is of great
evolutionary
importance<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
too (the world
of phages,
plasmids,
transposons...)<br
class="">
--A number of
genes in E.
coli are never
expressed in a
regular life<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
cycle (close
to 30 or 40%,
depending on
the
happenstances)<br
class="">
--The
revolutionary
role of
'external'
viruses in the
greatest evo<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
transitions
(Villarroel,
Witzany).<br
class="">
<br class="">
So, even if
you consider
these caveats
fulfilled in
larger and
larger<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
definitions of
autopoiesis,
there is
another point
that may be
quite<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
troubling:
information
flow and
signaling
disappear, and
are
substituted<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
by the
structural
coupling with
the
environment
and the
observer<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
conceptualization involvement. The big concern is that advancement of<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
the life
cycle, as the
central hub to
which
signaling or
external flows<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
cohere, and to
which
biological
meaning
relates, does
not occupy its<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
explanatory
essential
role... while
adaptively
advancing the
life cycle<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
is the silver
thread that
connects all
biological
world,
including our<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
own societies.<br
class="">
<br class="">
I understand
that for a
mathematician
the AP idea is
quite handy,
and<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
fruitful, but
for those
interested in
the evolution
of signals,<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
sensibility,
action,
emotions,
social
emotions, etc.
is perhaps a<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
stumbling
block to
overcome. By
the way, your
previous post
to Krassimir<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
on information
was quite
valuable, a
firm
standpoint
which I share.
I<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
was trying to
comment on it,
but my daily
schedule is
bizarre.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Best--Pedro<br
class="">
<br class="">
</span><o:p
class=""></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div
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class=""></o:p></div>
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informaci�n sobre como
tratamos sus datos en el
siguiente enlace:<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br
class="">
Recuerde que si est� suscrito
a una lista voluntaria Ud.
puede darse de baja desde la
propia aplicaci�n en el
momento en que lo desee.<br
class="">
<a
href="http://listas.unizar.es/"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br
class="">
----------</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
----------
</pre>
</blockquote>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br class="">
<i class=""> Dr. Eric Werner, FLS <br class="">
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!U7AEYAYLqAjgsCI7n0BsqdV1Q5Nc64N7griQPHu-ISrczUyAde3tN6fFLnD5IYs6Ux4Pm18M2L-Z73Mvj1HN10g$" moz-do-not-send="true">https://oarf.org</a>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</i></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</blockquote>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<i>
Dr. Eric Werner, FLS <br>
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!U7AEYAYLqAjgsCI7n0BsqdV1Q5Nc64N7griQPHu-ISrczUyAde3tN6fFLnD5IYs6Ux4Pm18M2L-Z73MvmPL_w5A$">https://oarf.org</a> <br>
<br>
<br>
</i></div>
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