<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear Eric,<div class="">There is a confusion here that is quite natural.</div><div class="">LOF is a book of mathematics and philosophy. It discusses the idea of a distinction.</div><div class="">When one takes a mathematical approach one attempts to begin with very simple structures and </div><div class="">explore outward into complexity. LOF dwells on the possibility of one distinction throughout the whole book.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">“We take as given the idea of distinction and the idea of indication </div><div class="">and that one cannot make an indication without drawing a distinction. </div><div class="">We take therefore the form of distinction for the form.”</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">As such LOF is not concerned with where or how the distinction is made.</div><div class="">In the same way, a mathematics book about number is not concerned with particular representations of numbers.</div><div class="">Of course we have these concerns and we want to understand more and more about numbers in general</div><div class="">and we feel that some representations will help and some ways to use signs and symbols will help. </div><div class="">The same is the case with the idea of distinction. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">GSB does have his ontology (or lack thereof!). </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><img apple-inline="yes" id="77359E8A-D95F-4072-9087-E00A0757E738" width="450" height="124" src="cid:D07A0F26-F1E0-4070-95E6-39CCBBAF94F8" class=""></div><div class="">Some people are made a bit nervous by declarations that the world is created from nothing. </div><div class="">But you can investigate this if you are not annoyed by it.</div><div class="">What could ’things’ be ‘made of’? </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If you’re bothered, then you are bothered.</div><div class="">Mathematics is similarly annoying </div><div class="">as we have systematically shown </div><div class="">how to build it all from nothing </div><div class="">but the act of collecting/distinguishing </div><div class="">and the act of creating signs and indications.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Everyone has their niche of ideas and ways that they want to continue to use. </div><div class="">In the approach of a big general idea, what we already “know" looks too good be abandoned, </div><div class="">and so we keep demanding that the other talk in our language.</div><div class="">GSB created new language. </div><div class="">Wittgenstein pointed out the ontological consequences of the limitations of language. </div><div class="">Both are very challenging. </div><div class="">Neither are making religions. </div><div class="">These are anti-religions.</div><div class="">Best,</div><div class="">Lou<br class=""><div><br class=""></div><div><img apple-inline="yes" id="5BC50924-6FC1-4645-8F69-93ECFB2D6453" width="453" height="602" src="cid:C57216C1-78A8-433E-A017-7389735568FC" class=""></div><div><br class="">THE FORM WE TAKE TO EXIST ARISES FROM FRAMING NOTHING.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 17, 2025, at 6:19 AM, Eric Werner <<a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" class="">eric.werner@oarf.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class=""><p class="">Dear Lou,</p><p class="">To point 4. Yes, I admit it was sarcasm. To me a distinction
requires a subject. And that subject's neuro-hardware or firmware
or software limits the distinctions that that subject can make.
For example, the distinctions made by an ant, a frog, a cat or a
human may be quite different. </p><p class="">I realize you are probably the world top expert on Spencer Brown
so you probably have a reply. But my instinct is that GSB is
claiming too much by using 'distinction' as an ONTOLOGICAL or
metaphysical foundation for what requires a subjective capacity.
OK, this last sentence is not fully clear, but I think GSB is
confusing subject and being. <br class="">
</p><p class="">As for the sarcasm, it is a more personal emotional reaction
having little to do with you. Although you may unknowingly have
had a role in the matter through your publications. I have
friends who study early Wittgenstein and GSB as if their texts
were biblical texts. Going to the library every day to read the
Tractatus and LOF like a disciple doing his or her religious
studies. </p><p class="">At the onset of puberty and the ability to consciously reason, my
mother took each of us into the kitchen and taught us to be
critical of the bible, both the old and new testament. We were
raised Christian but there were also Jews in my mother's ancestry.
Who knows why, but I have maintained my religious skepticism and
hence my perhaps inappropriate reaction when I smell religiosity.
Apologies dear Lou. <br class="">
</p><p class="">In spite of my critical attitude, I do believe there is more to
the universe. There may be a God or Gods and angels. There may be
life after death. Life is always surprising. So, I am open to
that. <br class="">
</p><p class="">-Eric<br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/16/25 6:58 PM, Louis Kauffman
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CE2B4F99-621C-47C0-9472-E9BA1CE1522E@gmail.com" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
Comments in Text.<br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jan 16, 2025, at 10:35 AM, Eric Werner <<a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">eric.werner@oarf.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class=""><p class="">Dear Lou and Kate and all,</p><p class="">To point 1. There are those fascinating
studies of pathologies of disconnection between the
right (holistic) and the left (linear) ideations.</p><p class="">2. The probability that what you are
suggesting will be followed has low frequency.</p>
<div class="">[I have no idea what you mean here. The
values of the probability and the corresponding
frequencies in QM can range arbitrarily high or low.]</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><p class="">3. Of course, human perception includes
unconscious processing. In fact most of it is
unconscious. Does the ant perceive the full moon? How is
perception related to the complexity of neural
processing in the brain? Are there degrees of perceiving
the same object or event by different agents of
different neural structure and complexity? <br class="">
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
[yes]<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class=""> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="">4. Sorry I get all emotional when I see the
lack of distinctions in GSB</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
[Sarcasm? Not appropriate. I would be interested in what you
mean here. Then we would have something to discuss.]<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><p class="">Wittgenstein version 2 would perhaps not
agree with Wittgenstein version 2 where he allows a much
broader range of function and what can be expressed in
language and its games. <br class="">
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
[Yes. But I refer to parts of W1 that do not really depend on
his “picture theory’.]<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class=""> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="">5. 'O' my God we have entered religion. As
the country singer disparages her partner-husband when
she croons "You say it best when you say nothing at
all." Poor guy. But more seriously, Lou, do you really
think "All of language collapses into the meaning of a
single word or sign," ? The problem is that recursion
generates repetition and the lack of sufficient
meaningful content whether it be in conversation of the
development of embryos. <br class="">
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
[I point out that the concept of distinction goes across the
board. In that sense we can have one word or one symbol that
stands for any distinction. It is not a religion.]<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class=""> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="">But, Kate, I do think that emotions are not
binary and rather continuous gradations and
multidimensional. Would such an assumption be
deleterious to your overall theoretical stance. Your
remarks on cell signalling and the approach-avoidance
theme may hold at that level of ontology but seems to
fail at higher levels of more complex systems and
beings. <br class="">
</p><p class="">And hats off to Stu and the problem of
assuming a well defined phase space of what is possible.
It points to problems with the foundations of
probability theory. <br class="">
</p><p class="">And yes Pedro thanks for points about meaning
and action which relates to Wittgenstein version 2. <br class="">
</p><p class="">Thank you for the motivating discussion Lou,</p><p class="">Eric<br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/14/25 2:58 AM, Louis
Kauffman wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:BB1C8C4D-A8C5-4144-82F1-F4F4D80D2C60@gmail.com" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
Dear Kate,
<div class="">I have questions and comments.</div>
<div class="">1. While the notions of right and left
hemispheres are useful to summarize certain aspects, I
actually do not know what is really meant when people
use those words.</div>
<div class="">So it would be better in communicating
with me, a mathematician who needs definitions
whenever possible, to rewrite statements without those
metaphors.</div>
<div class="">2. I do not want the word probability
unless you can tell me what you are counting. If you
cannot tell, then please speak of frequencies. Same
for so called probability in QM.</div>
<div class="">3. Perception does not include unconscious
processing, but unconcious processing can affect
perception. Perception is accompanied by awareness,
often by consciousness.</div>
<div class="">This is how I use the word perception. My
camera does not perceive the sunset. I perceive the
photo produced by the camera and I am involved in the
taking of photos by the camera.</div>
<div class="">Of course, I can set the camera to taking
photos automatically. No perception occurs until I see
them or you see them. But registration does occur.
These issues are related to QM as well.</div>
<div class="">The cat registers and is dead or alive at
the end of the hour. I find out. But the potentia have
come to rest before I find out because the cat is
corporeal.</div>
<div class="">4. Do you feel that all awareness is
related to emotions? GSB says every distinction is
associated with motive. So maybe. Feeling is more
general then emotion in my ways of speaking.</div>
<div class="">Feeling has to do with going outside given
language and meaning to a wider and not defined domain
from which we return with possibly new ways of
speaking. This is for me what Wittgenstein is
speaking </div>
<div class="">about when he says “Whereof one cannot
speak one must be silent.”, and then new speaking can
emerge, but NOT from a “hierarchy of languages” as
Russell said in his introduction to W’s Tractatus, but
by going beneath language to </div>
<div class="">Its source.</div>
<div class="">5. In relation to 4. C.S.Peirce had the
idea of a “sign for itself” that emerged from the ever
expanding hierarchy of a person’s language. There is a
truth in that. One can also see an icon, such as O, as
a sign for itself when seen as both a distinction and
a sign for a distinction. But then the sign O is
enveloped in the interpretant that would see it that
way. And we only understand the interpretant in terms
of the ever expanding hierarchy of our language. The O
is like a “quantum particle”. It takes the whole
universe of </div>
<div class="">discourse to disclose its meaning. All of
language collapses into the meaning of a single word
or sign.</div>
<div class="">Best,</div>
<div class="">Lou</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jan 13, 2025, at 3:57 PM,
Katherine Peil <<a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">ktpeil@outlook.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta charset="UTF-8" class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></b></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Thank
you so much Lou.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Self-reference
is something very deep indeed, perhaps
fundamentally located at the nexus of
subject~object itself (in terms of
geometry and association with quantum
physics). The step from the P</span><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">an
triangle to</span><b class="" style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;"> </b><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">George
Spencer-Brown’s observer intervention and
wavefunction collapse seems to be in this
territory. Self-reference as being the
perfect circle, representing the emergence
from a sea of possibilities the
probabilistic manifestation of percept and
concept in one lovely unit.</span></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CE2B4F99-621C-47C0-9472-E9BA1CE1522E@gmail.com" class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:BB1C8C4D-A8C5-4144-82F1-F4F4D80D2C60@gmail.com" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">From
a psychological perspective, however,
perception is a different can of worms,
distinct from (but related to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">physical sensory stimulus)</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>and
the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">embodied response</i>.
Behaviorism noted the stimulus-response
coupling (and its essential role in
learning), but remained intentionally
blind to any internal cognitive processing
inside the proverbial Black Box.
Perception can be defined as everything
happening inside that Black Box,
everything between that stimulus and
response, and the more neurally endowed
the creature, the more the perceptual
processing involved. Unlike the perfect
zero, it can be reasonably accurate or
riddled with error. This is why some
self-referential feedback is required in
the stimulus itself.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">This
marks the distinction between affective
computations and cognitive computations.
Affective computations specifically
concern the self, they feel either good or
bad, offering evaluative feedback about
the self within its local physical
environment and they trigger direct
stimulus-response behavior. The stream of
emotional information came first and still
provides primary behavioral motivation. No
observation no qualia? I agree but add no
sensory stimulus, no percept!<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<br class="">
Ian McGlichest’s work in the dual yet
interacting functions of the left and
right brain hemispheres is instructive
here as well. Music, maths, non-verbal
wholism, creative “unconscious”, intuitive
capacities and all imaginable
possibilities…… and emotion…collectively
dwell in the right hemisphere – the Master
to the left-brain emissary where complex
linguistic perceptual processing occurs.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Kate
Kauffman<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div id="mail-editor-reference-message-container" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">On 1/12/25, 9:39 PM,
"Stuart Kauffman" <<a href="mailto:stukauffman@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">stukauffman@gmail.com</a>>
wrote: Katherine Peil Kauffman<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><br class="">
Thank you both,<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Stu<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">On Jan 12, 2025, at
8:52<span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=""> </span>PM, Louis
Kauffman <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">loukau@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Dear Katherine<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">I do not yet take
the step to “explain” how to
go from percept to concept.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">The point I
inhabit is prior to that.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">In every
situation where you have
percept you also have
concept.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">They arise
together for you.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Possibly not with
the good concept you are
searching for.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">For example,
consider the way the
perception of Saturn’s
rings first appeared as
lune-like patterns on the
orb of the planet.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">The better
concept of rings took some
time.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">But every time
there is a perception
there is at the very least
some concept, some
description and it is from
this place of
percept/concept together
that we proceed.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">From there you
may or may not conclude
that there is no way to
reduce percept to concept
and there is no way to
reduce concept to percept.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">That is my
position as a working
position.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Experience
provides evidence that
there is much more to the
concurrence. In typing I
can accomplish the task
without looking at the
keys.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">I have no
training in this. I found
that eventually I did it.
I do not know how it works
or why it is reliable. If
you asked me which fingers
make which letters, I
could not answer.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">The same goes for
improvisation on my
clarinet, but there I do
keep conscious track of
the key and some other
contextual information.
Then my “fingers” do the
rest in feedback with ear
and brain.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">LeDoux has an
important point and I
would like to know how he
links the Cognitive
Computations with the
Affective Computations. In
music practice we do this
very deliberately, but in
performance <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">(also part of
practice) we let it
happen. Music seems to
begin with the affective.
Doing mathematics seems to
often begin in the
cognitive, but achieves
new creation at the nexus
of cognitive and affective
levels.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">This is why many
people gravitate to
geometry. And the
Pythagoreans knew that
music and geometry were
one.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Steiner in his
early work focused on the
self-reference of "thought
thinking thought” which I
take to be at the nexus of
concept and percept. <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">In logical and
pre logical work it helps
to use signs iconically.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Thus a circle
such as O can stand for a
distinction and we can
“see” that the circle
itself makes a distinction
in the plane.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Thus the circle O
is seen to refer to
itself.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">In this
self-reference the
Peircian Triangle<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">
Interpretant<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">
Signifier
Signified<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Collapses to. <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">
Interpretant<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">
O<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">The O does not
have a separate meaning
from its interpretant.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">This leads George
Spencer-Brown to declaim:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span id="cid:84709B7E-342D-4BDA-9B07-05F654C166CA" class=""><GSBMarkObserverQuote.png></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">I suggest that
this situation is imaged
in the orthodox form of
quantum measurement where
the smooth and determinate
evolution of the wave
function is<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Interrupted by
the mark of observation.
Without an observer there
is no distinction and the
world unseen evolves in
potentia. With an observer
comes<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">percept and
concept and all the rest.
When I was 16 I called the
potentia the “guarded
source of the discrete”.
Can’t do any better yet.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Best,<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Lou<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">On Jan 12,
2025, at 5:21 PM,
Katherine Peil <<a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">ktpeil@outlook.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Thanks
Pedro – great
to hear from
you. A quick
comment on:</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">….
I see a
problem going
from "percepts
to concepts"
as Lou claims <br class="">
below.
Neuroscience
has nowadays a
rare consensus
on not
dissociating <br class="">
PERCEPTION and
ACTION. The
"Action
Perception
Cycle"…</span></b><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">From
the view of
emotion
science, this
reflects a
neurocentric
problem
wherein
“cognition”
(perceptual
processing)
confounds<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">sensations that lead
to actions</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>– embodied emotional sensations
that came on
the
evolutionary
stage well
before nerve
nets or
brains. It is
emotion that
is central to
action,
behavior and
motivation.<br class="">
<br class="">
Neuroscientist
Jospeh LeDoux
made this key
distinction:</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Cognitive
computations</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">:
Reflective,
conscious,
goal-directed
thought, often
linked to
areas of the
brain involved
in higher
cognitive
functions.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Affective
computations</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">:
Automatic,
unconscious,
emotional
processing,
often linked
to areas of
the brain
involved in
emotional
regulation and
survival
mechanisms.
They always
concern “the
self” and the
lead to
actions.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">I
can paraphrase
his example…”
there is a
huge
experiential
difference
between the
thought that a
snake is a
reptile, that
its skin can
be made into
belts and
shoes, and the
thought that a
snake is
likely to be
dangerous.”</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Recall
my claim that
emotion in its
simplest
binary form –
akin to
pleasure or
pain - carries
the
foundational
semantic
information
bit that
undergirds all
learning
systems, but
emerges from
the dynamics
and logic of
genetic,
epigenetic and
immune
regulation.
The
Perception-Action-Cycle
relies on the
emotional
component, so
IMHO Lou is
still on safe
and important
new ground.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Kate
Kauffman</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div id="mail-editor-reference-message-container" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">On
1/12/25, 2:59
PM, "Fis" <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>>
wrote:
Katherine Peil
Kauffman<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
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Today's
Topics:<br class="">
<br class="">
1. Re: LOF
Friday (Pedro
C. Mariju?n)<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br class="">
<br class="">
Message: 1<br class="">
Date: Sun, 12
Jan 2025
22:58:21 +0100<br class="">
From: Pedro C.
Mariju?n <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
To:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class="">
Subject: Re:
[Fis] LOF
Friday<br class="">
Message-ID:
<<a href="mailto:d93cbae2-038d-4733-8071-4f7b93a4f6d6@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">d93cbae2-038d-4733-8071-4f7b93a4f6d6@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
Content-Type:
text/plain;
charset="utf-8";
Format="flowed"<br class="">
<br class="">
Dear List,<br class="">
<br class="">
Please, take
care to post
properly (as
the server
automatically<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
demands), as
otherwise I
become rather
overwhelmed
wit all the
different<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
warning
messages.
Thanks Lou for
the tip about
that.<br class="">
<br class="">
Well, I see a
problem going
from "percepts
to concepts"
as Lou claims<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
below.
Neuroscience
has nowadays a
rare consensus
on not
dissociating<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
PERCEPTION and
ACTION. The
"Action
Perception
Cycle" is the
most common<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
acceptation.
The "concept"
gets? not too
far from
either side,
and<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
usually it is
incorporating
elements of
each kind,
with different<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
predominance.
Joaqu?n Fuster
(2008 and 2014
I think)
coined the
term<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
"cognit" to
refer to the
intermediate
stage, having
both percept
ears<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
and action
legs (so to
speak). The
union of
cognits legs
and ears (or<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
legs and legs,
ears and ears,
etc.) would
give birth to
different
kinds<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
of concepts,
and the union
of concepts
via shared
cognits would
give<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
rise to
conceptualizations,
sentences,
etc. Having
entered action
in the<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
world scheme
is not trivial
at all. Our
litmus test
for reality is
not<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
that the
percept agrees
with the
concept, but
with the
action. It is,
as<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
we consider in
the world of
science, the
whole
experimental
part... the<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
"fact". As
Goethe's Faust
aptly says:
"In the
beginning was
the deed"!<br class="">
<br class="">
My other brief
pill refers
again to
autopoiesis. A
few cellular<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
arguments not
well tolerated
(or only
partially some
of them) by<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
autopoiesis:<br class="">
<br class="">
--The enormous
cellular
importance of
protein
degradation.
The world of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
proteasomes
(the cell
"industry of
destruction")
is
fascinating,
even in<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
the simplest
cells.<br class="">
--The
different
classes of
programmed
cell death,
essentially
apoptosis,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
is also of
enormous
multicell--and
even
bacterial--
importance.<br class="">
--The
absorption of
external DNA
is quite
frequent, and
even customary<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
in some
bacteria.<br class="">
--The
horizontal
gene
transmission
is of great
evolutionary
importance<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
too (the world
of phages,
plasmids,
transposons...)<br class="">
--A number of
genes in E.
coli are never
expressed in a
regular life<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
cycle (close
to 30 or 40%,
depending on
the
happenstances)<br class="">
--The
revolutionary
role of
'external'
viruses in the
greatest evo<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
transitions
(Villarroel,
Witzany).<br class="">
<br class="">
So, even if
you consider
these caveats
fulfilled in
larger and
larger<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
definitions of
autopoiesis,
there is
another point
that may be
quite<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
troubling:
information
flow and
signaling
disappear, and
are
substituted<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
by the
structural
coupling with
the
environment
and the
observer<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
conceptualization involvement. The big concern is that advancement of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
the life
cycle, as the
central hub to
which
signaling or
external flows<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
cohere, and to
which
biological
meaning
relates, does
not occupy its<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
explanatory
essential
role... while
adaptively
advancing the
life cycle<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
is the silver
thread that
connects all
biological
world,
including our<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
own societies.<br class="">
<br class="">
I understand
that for a
mathematician
the AP idea is
quite handy,
and<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
fruitful, but
for those
interested in
the evolution
of signals,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
sensibility,
action,
emotions,
social
emotions, etc.
is perhaps a<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
stumbling
block to
overcome. By
the way, your
previous post
to Krassimir<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
on information
was quite
valuable, a
firm
standpoint
which I share.
I<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
was trying to
comment on it,
but my daily
schedule is
bizarre.<br class="">
<br class="">
Best--Pedro<br class="">
<br class="">
</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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en el momento en
que lo desee.<br class="">
</span><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="" moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class="">http://listas.unizar.es</span></a><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=""><br class="">
----------</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">
Fis mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class="">
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br class="">
----------<br class="">
INFORMACI�N SOBRE PROTECCI�N
DE DATOS DE CAR�CTER PERSONAL<br class="">
<br class="">
Ud. recibe este correo por
pertenecer a una lista de
correo gestionada por la
Universidad de Zaragoza.<br class="">
Puede encontrar toda la
informaci�n sobre como
tratamos sus datos en el
siguiente enlace:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br class="">
Recuerde que si est� suscrito
a una lista voluntaria Ud.
puede darse de baja desde la
propia aplicaci�n en el
momento en que lo desee.<br class="">
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br class="">
----------</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" moz-do-not-send="true">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" moz-do-not-send="true">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" moz-do-not-send="true">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/" moz-do-not-send="true">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
----------
</pre>
</blockquote>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br class="">
<i class=""> Dr. Eric Werner, FLS <br class="">
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UgjtN1_4gWRUXjqQA6U0GG-mX8YLlOYG8azgjV5O_5Ra3oWkTKpAkKhwbttzmArlzO3i33jqXjYarzrH$" moz-do-not-send="true">https://oarf.org</a>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</i></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</blockquote>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br class="">
<i class="">
Dr. Eric Werner, FLS <br class="">
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UgjtN1_4gWRUXjqQA6U0GG-mX8YLlOYG8azgjV5O_5Ra3oWkTKpAkKhwbttzmArlzO3i33jqXjYarzrH$">https://oarf.org</a> <br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</i></div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>