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<p>Dear Lou and Kate and all,</p>
<p>To point 1. There are those fascinating studies of pathologies of
disconnection between the right (holistic) and the left (linear)
ideations.</p>
<p>2. The probability that what you are suggesting will be followed
has low frequency.</p>
<p>3. Of course, human perception includes unconscious processing.
In fact most of it is unconscious. Does the ant perceive the full
moon? How is perception related to the complexity of neural
processing in the brain? Are there degrees of perceiving the same
object or event by different agents of different neural structure
and complexity? <br>
</p>
<p>4. Sorry I get all emotional when I see the lack of distinctions
in GSB. </p>
<p>Wittgenstein version 2 would perhaps not agree with Wittgenstein
version 2 where he allows a much broader range of function and
what can be expressed in language and its games. <br>
</p>
<p>5. 'O' my God we have entered religion. As the country singer
disparages her partner-husband when she croons "You say it best
when you say nothing at all." Poor guy. But more seriously, Lou,
do you really think "All of language collapses into the meaning of
a single word or sign," ? The problem is that recursion generates
repetition and the lack of sufficient meaningful content whether
it be in conversation of the development of embryos. <br>
</p>
<p>But, Kate, I do think that emotions are not binary and rather
continuous gradations and multidimensional. Would such an
assumption be deleterious to your overall theoretical stance. Your
remarks on cell signalling and the approach-avoidance theme may
hold at that level of ontology but seems to fail at higher levels
of more complex systems and beings. <br>
</p>
<p>And hats off to Stu and the problem of assuming a well defined
phase space of what is possible. It points to problems with the
foundations of probability theory. <br>
</p>
<p>And yes Pedro thanks for points about meaning and action which
relates to Wittgenstein version 2. <br>
</p>
<p>Thank you for the motivating discussion Lou,</p>
<p>Eric<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/14/25 2:58 AM, Louis Kauffman
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:BB1C8C4D-A8C5-4144-82F1-F4F4D80D2C60@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
Dear Kate,
<div class="">I have questions and comments.</div>
<div class="">1. While the notions of right and left hemispheres
are useful to summarize certain aspects, I actually do not know
what is really meant when people use those words.</div>
<div class="">So it would be better in communicating with me, a
mathematician who needs definitions whenever possible, to
rewrite statements without those metaphors.</div>
<div class="">2. I do not want the word probability unless you can
tell me what you are counting. If you cannot tell, then please
speak of frequencies. Same for so called probability in QM.</div>
<div class="">3. Perception does not include unconscious
processing, but unconcious processing can affect perception.
Perception is accompanied by awareness, often by consciousness.</div>
<div class="">This is how I use the word perception. My camera
does not perceive the sunset. I perceive the photo produced by
the camera and I am involved in the taking of photos by the
camera.</div>
<div class="">Of course, I can set the camera to taking photos
automatically. No perception occurs until I see them or you see
them. But registration does occur. These issues are related to
QM as well.</div>
<div class="">The cat registers and is dead or alive at the end of
the hour. I find out. But the potentia have come to rest before
I find out because the cat is corporeal.</div>
<div class="">4. Do you feel that all awareness is related to
emotions? GSB says every distinction is associated with motive.
So maybe. Feeling is more general then emotion in my ways of
speaking.</div>
<div class="">Feeling has to do with going outside given language
and meaning to a wider and not defined domain from which we
return with possibly new ways of speaking. This is for me what
Wittgenstein is speaking </div>
<div class="">about when he says “Whereof one cannot speak one
must be silent.”, and then new speaking can emerge, but NOT from
a “hierarchy of languages” as Russell said in his introduction
to W’s Tractatus, but by going beneath language to </div>
<div class="">Its source.</div>
<div class="">5. In relation to 4. C.S.Peirce had the idea of a
“sign for itself” that emerged from the ever expanding hierarchy
of a person’s language. There is a truth in that. One can also
see an icon, such as O, as a sign for itself when seen as both a
distinction and a sign for a distinction. But then the sign O is
enveloped in the interpretant that would see it that way. And we
only understand the interpretant in terms of the ever expanding
hierarchy of our language. The O is like a “quantum particle”.
It takes the whole universe of </div>
<div class="">discourse to disclose its meaning. All of language
collapses into the meaning of a single word or sign.</div>
<div class="">Best,</div>
<div class="">Lou</div>
<div class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jan 13, 2025, at 3:57 PM, Katherine Peil
<<a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">ktpeil@outlook.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta charset="UTF-8" class="">
<div class="WordSection1"
style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><b class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p
class=""> </o:p></span></b></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Thank
you so much Lou.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Self-reference
is something very deep indeed, perhaps fundamentally
located at the nexus of subject~object itself (in
terms of geometry and association with quantum
physics). The step from the Peircian triangle to<b
class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>George
Spencer-Brown’s observer intervention and
wavefunction collapse seems to be in this territory.
Self-reference as being the perfect circle,
representing the emergence from a sea of
possibilities the probabilistic manifestation of
percept and concept in one lovely unit.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p
class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">From
a psychological perspective, however, perception is
a different can of worms, distinct from (but related
to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i
class="">physical sensory stimulus)</i><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>and the<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">embodied
response</i>. Behaviorism noted the
stimulus-response coupling (and its essential role
in learning), but remained intentionally blind to
any internal cognitive processing inside the
proverbial Black Box. Perception can be defined as
everything happening inside that Black Box,
everything between that stimulus and response, and
the more neurally endowed the creature, the more the
perceptual processing involved. Unlike the perfect
zero, it can be reasonably accurate or riddled with
error. This is why some self-referential feedback is
required in the stimulus itself.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p
class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">This
marks the distinction between affective computations
and cognitive computations. Affective computations
specifically concern the self, they feel either good
or bad, offering evaluative feedback about the self
within its local physical environment and they
trigger direct stimulus-response behavior. The
stream of emotional information came first and still
provides primary behavioral motivation. No
observation no qualia? I agree but add no sensory
stimulus, no percept!<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<br class="">
Ian McGlichest’s work in the dual yet interacting
functions of the left and right brain hemispheres is
instructive here as well. Music, maths, non-verbal
wholism, creative “unconscious”, intuitive
capacities and all imaginable possibilities…… and
emotion…collectively dwell in the right hemisphere –
the Master to the left-brain emissary where complex
linguistic perceptual processing occurs.<o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Kate
Kauffman<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p
class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p
class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div id="mail-editor-reference-message-container"
class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">On 1/12/25, 9:39 PM, "Stuart
Kauffman" <<a
href="mailto:stukauffman@gmail.com"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">stukauffman@gmail.com</a>>
wrote: Katherine Peil Kauffman<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><br class="">
Thank you both,<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">Stu<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"
class="">
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">On Jan 12, 2025, at 8:52<span
style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=""> </span>PM, Louis
Kauffman <<a
href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">loukau@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">Dear Katherine<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">I do not yet take the step to
“explain” how to go from percept to
concept.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">The point I inhabit is
prior to that.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">In every situation where
you have percept you also have
concept.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">They arise together for
you.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">Possibly not with the good
concept you are searching for.<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">For example, consider the
way the perception of Saturn’s rings
first appeared as lune-like patterns
on the orb of the planet.<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">The better concept of rings
took some time.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">But every time there is a
perception there is at the very
least some concept, some description
and it is from this place of
percept/concept together that we
proceed.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">From there you may or may
not conclude that there is no way to
reduce percept to concept and there
is no way to reduce concept to
percept.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">That is my position as a
working position.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">Experience provides
evidence that there is much more to
the concurrence. In typing I can
accomplish the task without looking
at the keys.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">I have no training in this.
I found that eventually I did it. I
do not know how it works or why it
is reliable. If you asked me which
fingers make which letters, I could
not answer.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">The same goes for
improvisation on my clarinet, but
there I do keep conscious track of
the key and some other contextual
information. Then my “fingers” do
the rest in feedback with ear and
brain.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">LeDoux has an important
point and I would like to know how
he links the Cognitive Computations
with the Affective Computations. In
music practice we do this very
deliberately, but in performance <o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">(also part of practice) we
let it happen. Music seems to begin
with the affective. Doing
mathematics seems to often begin in
the cognitive, but achieves new
creation at the nexus of cognitive
and affective levels.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">This is why many people
gravitate to geometry. And the
Pythagoreans knew that music and
geometry were one.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">Steiner in his early work
focused on the self-reference of
"thought thinking thought” which I
take to be at the nexus of concept
and percept. <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">In logical and pre logical
work it helps to use signs
iconically.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">Thus a circle such as O can
stand for a distinction and we can
“see” that the circle itself makes a
distinction in the plane.<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">Thus the circle O is seen
to refer to itself.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">In this self-reference the
Peircian Triangle<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">
Interpretant<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">
Signifier
Signified<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">Collapses to. <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">
Interpretant<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">
O<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">The O does not have a
separate meaning from its
interpretant.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">This leads George
Spencer-Brown to declaim:<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
id="cid:84709B7E-342D-4BDA-9B07-05F654C166CA"><GSBMarkObserverQuote.png></span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">I suggest that this
situation is imaged in the orthodox
form of quantum measurement where
the smooth and determinate evolution
of the wave function is<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">Interrupted by the mark of
observation. Without an observer
there is no distinction and the
world unseen evolves in potentia.
With an observer comes<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">percept and concept and all
the rest. When I was 16 I called the
potentia the “guarded source of the
discrete”. Can’t do any better yet.<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">Best,<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">Lou<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="">
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">On Jan 12, 2025, at
5:21 PM, Katherine Peil <<a
href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">ktpeil@outlook.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Thanks
Pedro – great to hear
from you. A quick
comment on:</span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><b class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">….
I see a problem going
from "percepts to
concepts" as Lou
claims <br class="">
below. Neuroscience
has nowadays a rare
consensus on not
dissociating <br
class="">
PERCEPTION and ACTION.
The "Action Perception
Cycle"…</span></b><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">From
the view of emotion
science, this reflects a
neurocentric problem
wherein “cognition”
(perceptual processing)
confounds<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">sensations that lead
to actions</i><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>– embodied emotional sensations
that came on the
evolutionary stage well
before nerve nets or
brains. It is emotion
that is central to
action, behavior and
motivation.<br class="">
<br class="">
Neuroscientist Jospeh
LeDoux made this key
distinction:</span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><b class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Cognitive
computations</span></b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">:
Reflective, conscious,
goal-directed thought,
often linked to areas of
the brain involved in
higher cognitive
functions.</span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><b class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Affective
computations</span></b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">:
Automatic, unconscious,
emotional processing,
often linked to areas of
the brain involved in
emotional regulation and
survival mechanisms.
They always concern “the
self” and the lead to
actions.</span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""> </span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">I
can paraphrase his
example…” there is a
huge experiential
difference between the
thought that a snake is
a reptile, that its skin
can be made into belts
and shoes, and the
thought that a snake is
likely to be dangerous.”</span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""> </span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Recall
my claim that emotion in
its simplest binary form
– akin to pleasure or
pain - carries the
foundational semantic
information bit that
undergirds all learning
systems, but emerges
from the dynamics and
logic of genetic,
epigenetic and immune
regulation. The
Perception-Action-Cycle
relies on the emotional
component, so IMHO Lou
is still on safe and
important new ground.</span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""> </span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Kate
Kauffman</span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""> </span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""> </span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt;"
class=""> </span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div
id="mail-editor-reference-message-container" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class="">On
1/12/25, 2:59 PM,
"Fis" <<a
href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>>
wrote: Katherine
Peil Kauffman<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"
class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
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Today's Topics:<br
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<br class="">
1. Re: LOF
Friday (Pedro C.
Mariju?n)<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br
class="">
<br class="">
Message: 1<br
class="">
Date: Sun, 12
Jan 2025
22:58:21 +0100<br
class="">
From: Pedro C.
Mariju?n <<a
href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>><br
class="">
To:<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br
class="">
Subject: Re:
[Fis] LOF Friday<br
class="">
Message-ID: <<a
href="mailto:d93cbae2-038d-4733-8071-4f7b93a4f6d6@gmail.com"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">d93cbae2-038d-4733-8071-4f7b93a4f6d6@gmail.com</a>><br
class="">
Content-Type:
text/plain;
charset="utf-8";
Format="flowed"<br
class="">
<br class="">
Dear List,<br
class="">
<br class="">
Please, take
care to post
properly (as the
server
automatically<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
demands), as
otherwise I
become rather
overwhelmed wit
all the
different<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
warning
messages. Thanks
Lou for the tip
about that.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Well, I see a
problem going
from "percepts
to concepts" as
Lou claims<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
below.
Neuroscience has
nowadays a rare
consensus on not
dissociating<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
PERCEPTION and
ACTION. The
"Action
Perception
Cycle" is the
most common<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
acceptation. The
"concept" gets?
not too far from
either side, and<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
usually it is
incorporating
elements of each
kind, with
different<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
predominance.
Joaqu?n Fuster
(2008 and 2014 I
think) coined
the term<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
"cognit" to
refer to the
intermediate
stage, having
both percept
ears<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
and action legs
(so to speak).
The union of
cognits legs and
ears (or<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
legs and legs,
ears and ears,
etc.) would give
birth to
different kinds<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
of concepts, and
the union of
concepts via
shared cognits
would give<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
rise to
conceptualizations,
sentences, etc.
Having entered
action in the<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
world scheme is
not trivial at
all. Our litmus
test for reality
is not<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
that the percept
agrees with the
concept, but
with the action.
It is, as<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
we consider in
the world of
science, the
whole
experimental
part... the<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
"fact". As
Goethe's Faust
aptly says: "In
the beginning
was the deed"!<br
class="">
<br class="">
My other brief
pill refers
again to
autopoiesis. A
few cellular<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
arguments not
well tolerated
(or only
partially some
of them) by<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
autopoiesis:<br
class="">
<br class="">
--The enormous
cellular
importance of
protein
degradation. The
world of<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
proteasomes (the
cell "industry
of destruction")
is fascinating,
even in<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
the simplest
cells.<br
class="">
--The different
classes of
programmed cell
death,
essentially
apoptosis,<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
is also of
enormous
multicell--and
even bacterial--
importance.<br
class="">
--The absorption
of external DNA
is quite
frequent, and
even customary<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
in some
bacteria.<br
class="">
--The horizontal
gene
transmission is
of great
evolutionary
importance<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
too (the world
of phages,
plasmids,
transposons...)<br
class="">
--A number of
genes in E. coli
are never
expressed in a
regular life<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
cycle (close to
30 or 40%,
depending on the
happenstances)<br
class="">
--The
revolutionary
role of
'external'
viruses in the
greatest evo<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
transitions
(Villarroel,
Witzany).<br
class="">
<br class="">
So, even if you
consider these
caveats
fulfilled in
larger and
larger<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
definitions of
autopoiesis,
there is another
point that may
be quite<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
troubling:
information flow
and signaling
disappear, and
are substituted<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
by the
structural
coupling with
the environment
and the observer<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
conceptualization involvement. The big concern is that advancement of<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
the life cycle,
as the central
hub to which
signaling or
external flows<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
cohere, and to
which biological
meaning relates,
does not occupy
its<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
explanatory
essential
role... while
adaptively
advancing the
life cycle<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
is the silver
thread that
connects all
biological
world, including
our<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
own societies.<br
class="">
<br class="">
I understand
that for a
mathematician
the AP idea is
quite handy, and<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
fruitful, but
for those
interested in
the evolution of
signals,<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
sensibility,
action,
emotions, social
emotions, etc.
is perhaps a<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
stumbling block
to overcome. By
the way, your
previous post to
Krassimir<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
on information
was quite
valuable, a firm
standpoint which
I share. I<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
was trying to
comment on it,
but my daily
schedule is
bizarre.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Best--Pedro<br
class="">
<br class="">
</span><o:p
class=""></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
<div
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