<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Comments in Text.<br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 16, 2025, at 10:35 AM, Eric Werner <<a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" class="">eric.werner@oarf.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div class=""><p class="">Dear Lou and Kate and all,</p><p class="">To point 1. There are those fascinating studies of pathologies of
disconnection between the right (holistic) and the left (linear)
ideations.</p><p class="">2. The probability that what you are suggesting will be followed
has low frequency.</p><div class="">[I have no idea what you mean here. The values of the probability and the corresponding frequencies in QM can range arbitrarily high or low.]</div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">3. Of course, human perception includes unconscious processing.
In fact most of it is unconscious. Does the ant perceive the full
moon? How is perception related to the complexity of neural
processing in the brain? Are there degrees of perceiving the same
object or event by different agents of different neural structure
and complexity? <br class=""></p></div></div></blockquote>[yes]<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">
</p><p class="">4. Sorry I get all emotional when I see the lack of distinctions
in GSB</p></div></div></blockquote>[Sarcasm? Not appropriate. I would be interested in what you mean here. Then we would have something to discuss.]<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">Wittgenstein version 2 would perhaps not agree with Wittgenstein
version 2 where he allows a much broader range of function and
what can be expressed in language and its games. <br class=""></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>[Yes. But I refer to parts of W1 that do not really depend on his “picture theory’.]<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">
</p><p class="">5. 'O' my God we have entered religion. As the country singer
disparages her partner-husband when she croons "You say it best
when you say nothing at all." Poor guy. But more seriously, Lou,
do you really think "All of language collapses into the meaning of
a single word or sign," ? The problem is that recursion generates
repetition and the lack of sufficient meaningful content whether
it be in conversation of the development of embryos. <br class=""></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>[I point out that the concept of distinction goes across the board. In that sense we can have one word or one symbol that stands for any distinction. It is not a religion.]<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">
</p><p class="">But, Kate, I do think that emotions are not binary and rather
continuous gradations and multidimensional. Would such an
assumption be deleterious to your overall theoretical stance. Your
remarks on cell signalling and the approach-avoidance theme may
hold at that level of ontology but seems to fail at higher levels
of more complex systems and beings. <br class="">
</p><p class="">And hats off to Stu and the problem of assuming a well defined
phase space of what is possible. It points to problems with the
foundations of probability theory. <br class="">
</p><p class="">And yes Pedro thanks for points about meaning and action which
relates to Wittgenstein version 2. <br class="">
</p><p class="">Thank you for the motivating discussion Lou,</p><p class="">Eric<br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/14/25 2:58 AM, Louis Kauffman
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:BB1C8C4D-A8C5-4144-82F1-F4F4D80D2C60@gmail.com" class="">
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Dear Kate,
<div class="">I have questions and comments.</div>
<div class="">1. While the notions of right and left hemispheres
are useful to summarize certain aspects, I actually do not know
what is really meant when people use those words.</div>
<div class="">So it would be better in communicating with me, a
mathematician who needs definitions whenever possible, to
rewrite statements without those metaphors.</div>
<div class="">2. I do not want the word probability unless you can
tell me what you are counting. If you cannot tell, then please
speak of frequencies. Same for so called probability in QM.</div>
<div class="">3. Perception does not include unconscious
processing, but unconcious processing can affect perception.
Perception is accompanied by awareness, often by consciousness.</div>
<div class="">This is how I use the word perception. My camera
does not perceive the sunset. I perceive the photo produced by
the camera and I am involved in the taking of photos by the
camera.</div>
<div class="">Of course, I can set the camera to taking photos
automatically. No perception occurs until I see them or you see
them. But registration does occur. These issues are related to
QM as well.</div>
<div class="">The cat registers and is dead or alive at the end of
the hour. I find out. But the potentia have come to rest before
I find out because the cat is corporeal.</div>
<div class="">4. Do you feel that all awareness is related to
emotions? GSB says every distinction is associated with motive.
So maybe. Feeling is more general then emotion in my ways of
speaking.</div>
<div class="">Feeling has to do with going outside given language
and meaning to a wider and not defined domain from which we
return with possibly new ways of speaking. This is for me what
Wittgenstein is speaking </div>
<div class="">about when he says “Whereof one cannot speak one
must be silent.”, and then new speaking can emerge, but NOT from
a “hierarchy of languages” as Russell said in his introduction
to W’s Tractatus, but by going beneath language to </div>
<div class="">Its source.</div>
<div class="">5. In relation to 4. C.S.Peirce had the idea of a
“sign for itself” that emerged from the ever expanding hierarchy
of a person’s language. There is a truth in that. One can also
see an icon, such as O, as a sign for itself when seen as both a
distinction and a sign for a distinction. But then the sign O is
enveloped in the interpretant that would see it that way. And we
only understand the interpretant in terms of the ever expanding
hierarchy of our language. The O is like a “quantum particle”.
It takes the whole universe of </div>
<div class="">discourse to disclose its meaning. All of language
collapses into the meaning of a single word or sign.</div>
<div class="">Best,</div>
<div class="">Lou</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jan 13, 2025, at 3:57 PM, Katherine Peil
<<a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">ktpeil@outlook.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
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<div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></b></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Thank
you so much Lou.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Self-reference
is something very deep indeed, perhaps fundamentally
located at the nexus of subject~object itself (in
terms of geometry and association with quantum
physics). The step from the Peircian triangle to<b class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>George
Spencer-Brown’s observer intervention and
wavefunction collapse seems to be in this territory.
Self-reference as being the perfect circle,
representing the emergence from a sea of
possibilities the probabilistic manifestation of
percept and concept in one lovely unit.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">From
a psychological perspective, however, perception is
a different can of worms, distinct from (but related
to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">physical sensory stimulus)</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>and the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">embodied
response</i>. Behaviorism noted the
stimulus-response coupling (and its essential role
in learning), but remained intentionally blind to
any internal cognitive processing inside the
proverbial Black Box. Perception can be defined as
everything happening inside that Black Box,
everything between that stimulus and response, and
the more neurally endowed the creature, the more the
perceptual processing involved. Unlike the perfect
zero, it can be reasonably accurate or riddled with
error. This is why some self-referential feedback is
required in the stimulus itself.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">This
marks the distinction between affective computations
and cognitive computations. Affective computations
specifically concern the self, they feel either good
or bad, offering evaluative feedback about the self
within its local physical environment and they
trigger direct stimulus-response behavior. The
stream of emotional information came first and still
provides primary behavioral motivation. No
observation no qualia? I agree but add no sensory
stimulus, no percept!<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<br class="">
Ian McGlichest’s work in the dual yet interacting
functions of the left and right brain hemispheres is
instructive here as well. Music, maths, non-verbal
wholism, creative “unconscious”, intuitive
capacities and all imaginable possibilities…… and
emotion…collectively dwell in the right hemisphere –
the Master to the left-brain emissary where complex
linguistic perceptual processing occurs.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Kate
Kauffman<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div id="mail-editor-reference-message-container" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">On 1/12/25, 9:39 PM, "Stuart
Kauffman" <<a href="mailto:stukauffman@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">stukauffman@gmail.com</a>>
wrote: Katherine Peil Kauffman<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><br class="">
Thank you both,<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Stu<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">On Jan 12, 2025, at 8:52<span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=""> </span>PM, Louis
Kauffman <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">loukau@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Dear Katherine<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">I do not yet take the step to
“explain” how to go from percept to
concept.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">The point I inhabit is
prior to that.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">In every situation where
you have percept you also have
concept.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">They arise together for
you.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Possibly not with the good
concept you are searching for.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">For example, consider the
way the perception of Saturn’s rings
first appeared as lune-like patterns
on the orb of the planet.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">The better concept of rings
took some time.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">But every time there is a
perception there is at the very
least some concept, some description
and it is from this place of
percept/concept together that we
proceed.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">From there you may or may
not conclude that there is no way to
reduce percept to concept and there
is no way to reduce concept to
percept.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">That is my position as a
working position.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Experience provides
evidence that there is much more to
the concurrence. In typing I can
accomplish the task without looking
at the keys.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">I have no training in this.
I found that eventually I did it. I
do not know how it works or why it
is reliable. If you asked me which
fingers make which letters, I could
not answer.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">The same goes for
improvisation on my clarinet, but
there I do keep conscious track of
the key and some other contextual
information. Then my “fingers” do
the rest in feedback with ear and
brain.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">LeDoux has an important
point and I would like to know how
he links the Cognitive Computations
with the Affective Computations. In
music practice we do this very
deliberately, but in performance <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">(also part of practice) we
let it happen. Music seems to begin
with the affective. Doing
mathematics seems to often begin in
the cognitive, but achieves new
creation at the nexus of cognitive
and affective levels.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">This is why many people
gravitate to geometry. And the
Pythagoreans knew that music and
geometry were one.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Steiner in his early work
focused on the self-reference of
"thought thinking thought” which I
take to be at the nexus of concept
and percept. <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">In logical and pre logical
work it helps to use signs
iconically.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Thus a circle such as O can
stand for a distinction and we can
“see” that the circle itself makes a
distinction in the plane.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Thus the circle O is seen
to refer to itself.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">In this self-reference the
Peircian Triangle<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">
Interpretant<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">
Signifier
Signified<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Collapses to. <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">
Interpretant<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">
O<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">The O does not have a
separate meaning from its
interpretant.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">This leads George
Spencer-Brown to declaim:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span id="cid:84709B7E-342D-4BDA-9B07-05F654C166CA" class=""><GSBMarkObserverQuote.png></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">I suggest that this
situation is imaged in the orthodox
form of quantum measurement where
the smooth and determinate evolution
of the wave function is<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Interrupted by the mark of
observation. Without an observer
there is no distinction and the
world unseen evolves in potentia.
With an observer comes<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">percept and concept and all
the rest. When I was 16 I called the
potentia the “guarded source of the
discrete”. Can’t do any better yet.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Best,<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Lou<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">On Jan 12, 2025, at
5:21 PM, Katherine Peil <<a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">ktpeil@outlook.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Thanks
Pedro – great to hear
from you. A quick
comment on:</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">….
I see a problem going
from "percepts to
concepts" as Lou
claims <br class="">
below. Neuroscience
has nowadays a rare
consensus on not
dissociating <br class="">
PERCEPTION and ACTION.
The "Action Perception
Cycle"…</span></b><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">From
the view of emotion
science, this reflects a
neurocentric problem
wherein “cognition”
(perceptual processing)
confounds<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">sensations that lead
to actions</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>– embodied emotional sensations
that came on the
evolutionary stage well
before nerve nets or
brains. It is emotion
that is central to
action, behavior and
motivation.<br class="">
<br class="">
Neuroscientist Jospeh
LeDoux made this key
distinction:</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Cognitive
computations</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">:
Reflective, conscious,
goal-directed thought,
often linked to areas of
the brain involved in
higher cognitive
functions.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Affective
computations</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">:
Automatic, unconscious,
emotional processing,
often linked to areas of
the brain involved in
emotional regulation and
survival mechanisms.
They always concern “the
self” and the lead to
actions.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">I
can paraphrase his
example…” there is a
huge experiential
difference between the
thought that a snake is
a reptile, that its skin
can be made into belts
and shoes, and the
thought that a snake is
likely to be dangerous.”</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Recall
my claim that emotion in
its simplest binary form
– akin to pleasure or
pain - carries the
foundational semantic
information bit that
undergirds all learning
systems, but emerges
from the dynamics and
logic of genetic,
epigenetic and immune
regulation. The
Perception-Action-Cycle
relies on the emotional
component, so IMHO Lou
is still on safe and
important new ground.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Kate
Kauffman</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div id="mail-editor-reference-message-container" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">On
1/12/25, 2:59 PM,
"Fis" <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>>
wrote: Katherine
Peil Kauffman<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
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Today's Topics:<br class="">
<br class="">
1. Re: LOF
Friday (Pedro C.
Mariju?n)<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br class="">
<br class="">
Message: 1<br class="">
Date: Sun, 12
Jan 2025
22:58:21 +0100<br class="">
From: Pedro C.
Mariju?n <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
To:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class="">
Subject: Re:
[Fis] LOF Friday<br class="">
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:d93cbae2-038d-4733-8071-4f7b93a4f6d6@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">d93cbae2-038d-4733-8071-4f7b93a4f6d6@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
Content-Type:
text/plain;
charset="utf-8";
Format="flowed"<br class="">
<br class="">
Dear List,<br class="">
<br class="">
Please, take
care to post
properly (as the
server
automatically<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
demands), as
otherwise I
become rather
overwhelmed wit
all the
different<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
warning
messages. Thanks
Lou for the tip
about that.<br class="">
<br class="">
Well, I see a
problem going
from "percepts
to concepts" as
Lou claims<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
below.
Neuroscience has
nowadays a rare
consensus on not
dissociating<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
PERCEPTION and
ACTION. The
"Action
Perception
Cycle" is the
most common<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
acceptation. The
"concept" gets?
not too far from
either side, and<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
usually it is
incorporating
elements of each
kind, with
different<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
predominance.
Joaqu?n Fuster
(2008 and 2014 I
think) coined
the term<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
"cognit" to
refer to the
intermediate
stage, having
both percept
ears<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
and action legs
(so to speak).
The union of
cognits legs and
ears (or<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
legs and legs,
ears and ears,
etc.) would give
birth to
different kinds<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
of concepts, and
the union of
concepts via
shared cognits
would give<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
rise to
conceptualizations,
sentences, etc.
Having entered
action in the<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
world scheme is
not trivial at
all. Our litmus
test for reality
is not<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
that the percept
agrees with the
concept, but
with the action.
It is, as<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
we consider in
the world of
science, the
whole
experimental
part... the<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
"fact". As
Goethe's Faust
aptly says: "In
the beginning
was the deed"!<br class="">
<br class="">
My other brief
pill refers
again to
autopoiesis. A
few cellular<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
arguments not
well tolerated
(or only
partially some
of them) by<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
autopoiesis:<br class="">
<br class="">
--The enormous
cellular
importance of
protein
degradation. The
world of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
proteasomes (the
cell "industry
of destruction")
is fascinating,
even in<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
the simplest
cells.<br class="">
--The different
classes of
programmed cell
death,
essentially
apoptosis,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
is also of
enormous
multicell--and
even bacterial--
importance.<br class="">
--The absorption
of external DNA
is quite
frequent, and
even customary<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
in some
bacteria.<br class="">
--The horizontal
gene
transmission is
of great
evolutionary
importance<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
too (the world
of phages,
plasmids,
transposons...)<br class="">
--A number of
genes in E. coli
are never
expressed in a
regular life<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
cycle (close to
30 or 40%,
depending on the
happenstances)<br class="">
--The
revolutionary
role of
'external'
viruses in the
greatest evo<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
transitions
(Villarroel,
Witzany).<br class="">
<br class="">
So, even if you
consider these
caveats
fulfilled in
larger and
larger<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
definitions of
autopoiesis,
there is another
point that may
be quite<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
troubling:
information flow
and signaling
disappear, and
are substituted<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
by the
structural
coupling with
the environment
and the observer<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
conceptualization involvement. The big concern is that advancement of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
the life cycle,
as the central
hub to which
signaling or
external flows<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
cohere, and to
which biological
meaning relates,
does not occupy
its<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
explanatory
essential
role... while
adaptively
advancing the
life cycle<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
is the silver
thread that
connects all
biological
world, including
our<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
own societies.<br class="">
<br class="">
I understand
that for a
mathematician
the AP idea is
quite handy, and<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
fruitful, but
for those
interested in
the evolution of
signals,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
sensibility,
action,
emotions, social
emotions, etc.
is perhaps a<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
stumbling block
to overcome. By
the way, your
previous post to
Krassimir<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
on information
was quite
valuable, a firm
standpoint which
I share. I<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
was trying to
comment on it,
but my daily
schedule is
bizarre.<br class="">
<br class="">
Best--Pedro<br class="">
<br class="">
</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">
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</blockquote>
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Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br class="">
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