<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">One point.<div class="">I said jury rigging.</div><div class="">It oughta be jerry rigging.</div><div class="">Ah thinks ah is being influenced by the present political atmosphere.</div><div class="">Or mebbe Nature loves a rigged jury.</div><div class="">And then there is the matter of judge rigging.</div><div class="">And knotted rigging.</div><div class="">(K)not.</div><div class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 14, 2025, at 2:06 PM, Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov <<a href="mailto:plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com" class="">plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default">Very well said. Thank you, Lou.</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default">This is what I expected you to tell us.</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default">It clarifies the boundary we all move within.</div></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default">There is a German sailor proverb: " We all sit in the same boat". ;-)</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default">Take it easy, also with Kate.</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default"><br class=""></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default">Best,</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default"><br class=""></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default">Plamen</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default"><br class=""></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default"><br class=""></div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 9:49 PM Louis Kauffman <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" class="">loukau@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="line-break:after-white-space" class="">About Chaitin’s Omega.<div class="">The n-th digit of Omega is 1 if the n-th algorithm in a given language halts. It is 0 if the algorithm does not halt.</div><div class="">We can list all the algorithms, but we do not know in general (there is no algorithm for it) whether they always stop.<br class=""><div class="">Omega is an example of a “random binary sequence” in the sense of Chaitin and Kolmogorov.</div><div class="">There is no algorithm (in the given language) that can do any better in producing Omega than Omega itself.</div><div class="">And Omega is kinda maximally unknowable to boot.</div><div class="">What does this manifestation of Turing undecidability have to do with life forms?</div><div class="">Well it certainly speaks to Stu Kauffman’s position that in biology we see the emergence of solutions by jury rigging that have no chance at all of being </div><div class="">deduced formally in some Turing machine. Natural invention occurs from opportunity and variety and lack of formalization. So this is in the complement to our</div><div class="">studies (a la Goedel, Church, Turing, Chaitin, Kolmogorov) of the limitations of formal systems. I should add that mathematics also progresses, like biology, by</div><div class="">Opportunity, the Alternate Possible and Jury Rigging. That’s how we got all our interesting structures, primes, manifolds, projective geometry the Möbius band, the number zero, the Calculus,</div><div class="">Imaginary numbers, quaternions, Exotic differentiable structures, Knots, Cantor’s Infinities,Fractals, …. All cooked up by people who just did not abide with the status quo.</div><div class="">We then tell the tale as formally as we can for the sake of our reputations and (ahem) the preservation of knowledge.</div><div class="">Best,</div><div class="">Lou</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 14, 2025, at 9:06 AM, Louis Kauffman <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">loukau@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class=""><div style="line-break:after-white-space" class="">I deny perception other than conscious perception.<div class="">Of course we often react unconsciously.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If I say that the die will fall heads with a frequency of 1/6, this is correct.</div><div class="">In quantum theory this is ALL we can say since these systems do not have frequencies that come from counting and so are not probabilities.</div><div class="">Vibration is not a quantitative term.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">More about this in next email!</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 14, 2025, at 5:57 AM, Plamen <<a href="mailto:plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class="">Dear Lou,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">A private questions and some feedback for you only: under „unconscious perception“ do you understand „intuition“ or more, perhaps clairvoyance ? <br class=""><br class="">I think that „vibration“ is a better term for „frequencies“ in this phenomenological context.<div class=""><br class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">I like your other answers to Kathrine. When speaking of „O“ and C.S. Pearce’s concept of sign, could you also comment on how do you comprehend Greg Chaitin‘s „Omega“ halting probability, <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://arxiv.org/abs/math/0404335*__;Iw!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QR5EXhARO6faAqNJvv_n9QmbfS24EKKI1PCpotAW-crP0raXnIeGzmmlHQvNI8-ZTLSrQVkfTrUlVgVM$" target="_blank" class="">https://arxiv.org/abs/math/0404335# </a>, in a computational context, please? Do you think that this could have some implication on the definition of (synthetic) life (forms) ? </div><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="ltr" class="">Best,</div><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="ltr" class="">Plamen</div><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On Jan 14, 2025, at 3:58 AM, Louis Kauffman <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">loukau@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Dear Kate,<div class="">I have questions and comments.</div><div class="">1. While the notions of right and left hemispheres are useful to summarize certain aspects, I actually do not know what is really meant when people use those words.</div><div class="">So it would be better in communicating with me, a mathematician who needs definitions whenever possible, to rewrite statements without those metaphors.</div><div class="">2. I do not want the word probability unless you can tell me what you are counting. If you cannot tell, then please speak of frequencies. Same for so called probability in QM.</div><div class="">3. Perception does not include unconscious processing, but unconcious processing can affect perception. Perception is accompanied by awareness, often by consciousness.</div><div class="">This is how I use the word perception. My camera does not perceive the sunset. I perceive the photo produced by the camera and I am involved in the taking of photos by the camera.</div><div class="">Of course, I can set the camera to taking photos automatically. No perception occurs until I see them or you see them. But registration does occur. These issues are related to QM as well.</div><div class="">The cat registers and is dead or alive at the end of the hour. I find out. But the potentia have come to rest before I find out because the cat is corporeal.</div><div class="">4. Do you feel that all awareness is related to emotions? GSB says every distinction is associated with motive. So maybe. Feeling is more general then emotion in my ways of speaking.</div><div class="">Feeling has to do with going outside given language and meaning to a wider and not defined domain from which we return with possibly new ways of speaking. This is for me what Wittgenstein is speaking </div><div class="">about when he says “Whereof one cannot speak one must be silent.”, and then new speaking can emerge, but NOT from a “hierarchy of languages” as Russell said in his introduction to W’s Tractatus, but by going beneath language to </div><div class="">Its source.</div><div class="">5. In relation to 4. C.S.Peirce had the idea of a “sign for itself” that emerged from the ever expanding hierarchy of a person’s language. There is a truth in that. One can also see an icon, such as O, as a sign for itself when seen as both a distinction and a sign for a distinction. But then the sign O is enveloped in the interpretant that would see it that way. And we only understand the interpretant in terms of the ever expanding hierarchy of our language. The O is like a “quantum particle”. It takes the whole universe of </div><div class="">discourse to disclose its meaning. All of language collapses into the meaning of a single word or sign.</div><div class="">Best,</div><div class="">Lou</div><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 13, 2025, at 3:57 PM, Katherine Peil <<a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com" target="_blank" class="">ktpeil@outlook.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class=""><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none" class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></b></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Thank you so much Lou.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Self-reference is something very deep indeed, perhaps fundamentally located at the nexus of subject~object itself (in terms of geometry and association with quantum physics). The step from the Peircian triangle to<b class=""><span class=""> </span></b>George Spencer-Brown’s observer intervention and wavefunction collapse seems to be in this territory. Self-reference as being the perfect circle, representing the emergence from a sea of possibilities the probabilistic manifestation of percept and concept in one lovely unit.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">From a psychological perspective, however, perception is a different can of worms, distinct from (but related to<span class=""> </span><i class="">physical sensory stimulus)</i><span class=""> </span>and the<span class=""> </span><i class="">embodied response</i>. Behaviorism noted the stimulus-response coupling (and its essential role in learning), but remained intentionally blind to any internal cognitive processing inside the proverbial Black Box. Perception can be defined as everything happening inside that Black Box, everything between that stimulus and response, and the more neurally endowed the creature, the more the perceptual processing involved. Unlike the perfect zero, it can be reasonably accurate or riddled with error. This is why some self-referential feedback is required in the stimulus itself.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">This marks the distinction between affective computations and cognitive computations. Affective computations specifically concern the self, they feel either good or bad, offering evaluative feedback about the self within its local physical environment and they trigger direct stimulus-response behavior. The stream of emotional information came first and still provides primary behavioral motivation. No observation no qualia? I agree but add no sensory stimulus, no percept!<span class=""> </span><br class=""><br class="">Ian McGlichest’s work in the dual yet interacting functions of the left and right brain hemispheres is instructive here as well. Music, maths, non-verbal wholism, creative “unconscious”, intuitive capacities and all imaginable possibilities…… and emotion…collectively dwell in the right hemisphere – the Master to the left-brain emissary where complex linguistic perceptual processing occurs.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Kate Kauffman<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></div><div id="m_-8376838496817047991mail-editor-reference-message-container" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">On 1/12/25, 9:39 PM, "Stuart Kauffman" <<a href="mailto:stukauffman@gmail.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class="">stukauffman@gmail.com</a>> wrote: Katherine Peil Kauffman<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><br class="">Thank you both,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">Stu<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">On Jan 12, 2025, at 8:52<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif" class=""> </span>PM, Louis Kauffman <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class="">loukau@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">Dear Katherine<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">I do not yet take the step to “explain” how to go from percept to concept.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">The point I inhabit is prior to that.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">In every situation where you have percept you also have concept.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">They arise together for you.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">Possibly not with the good concept you are searching for.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">For example, consider the way the perception of Saturn’s rings first appeared as lune-like patterns on the orb of the planet.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">The better concept of rings took some time.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">But every time there is a perception there is at the very least some concept, some description and it is from this place of percept/concept together that we proceed.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">From there you may or may not conclude that there is no way to reduce percept to concept and there is no way to reduce concept to percept.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">That is my position as a working position.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">Experience provides evidence that there is much more to the concurrence. In typing I can accomplish the task without looking at the keys.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">I have no training in this. I found that eventually I did it. I do not know how it works or why it is reliable. If you asked me which fingers make which letters, I could not answer.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">The same goes for improvisation on my clarinet, but there I do keep conscious track of the key and some other contextual information. Then my “fingers” do the rest in feedback with ear and brain.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">LeDoux has an important point and I would like to know how he links the Cognitive Computations with the Affective Computations. In music practice we do this very deliberately, but in performance <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">(also part of practice) we let it happen. Music seems to begin with the affective. Doing mathematics seems to often begin in the cognitive, but achieves new creation at the nexus of cognitive and affective levels.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">This is why many people gravitate to geometry. And the Pythagoreans knew that music and geometry were one.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">Steiner in his early work focused on the self-reference of "thought thinking thought” which I take to be at the nexus of concept and percept. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">In logical and pre logical work it helps to use signs iconically.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">Thus a circle such as O can stand for a distinction and we can “see” that the circle itself makes a distinction in the plane.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">Thus the circle O is seen to refer to itself.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">In this self-reference the Peircian Triangle<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""> Interpretant<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""> Signifier Signified<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">Collapses to. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""> Interpretant<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""> O<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">The O does not have a separate meaning from its interpretant.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">This leads George Spencer-Brown to declaim:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><span id="m_-8376838496817047991cid:84709B7E-342D-4BDA-9B07-05F654C166CA" class=""><GSBMarkObserverQuote.png></span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">I suggest that this situation is imaged in the orthodox form of quantum measurement where the smooth and determinate evolution of the wave function is<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">Interrupted by the mark of observation. Without an observer there is no distinction and the world unseen evolves in potentia. With an observer comes<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">percept and concept and all the rest. When I was 16 I called the potentia the “guarded source of the discrete”. Can’t do any better yet.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">Best,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">Lou<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">On Jan 12, 2025, at 5:21 PM, Katherine Peil <<a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class="">ktpeil@outlook.com</a>> wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Thanks Pedro – great to hear from you. A quick comment on:</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">…. I see a problem going from "percepts to concepts" as Lou claims <br class="">below. Neuroscience has nowadays a rare consensus on not dissociating <br class="">PERCEPTION and ACTION. The "Action Perception Cycle"…</span></b><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">From the view of emotion science, this reflects a neurocentric problem wherein “cognition” (perceptual processing) confounds<span class=""> </span><i class="">sensations that lead to actions</i><span class=""> </span>– embodied emotional sensations that came on the evolutionary stage well before nerve nets or brains. It is emotion that is central to action, behavior and motivation.<br class=""><br class="">Neuroscientist Jospeh LeDoux made this key distinction:</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Cognitive computations</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">: Reflective, conscious, goal-directed thought, often linked to areas of the brain involved in higher cognitive functions.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Affective computations</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">: Automatic, unconscious, emotional processing, often linked to areas of the brain involved in emotional regulation and survival mechanisms. They always concern “the self” and the lead to actions.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">I can paraphrase his example…” there is a huge experiential difference between the thought that a snake is a reptile, that its skin can be made into belts and shoes, and the thought that a snake is likely to be dangerous.”</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Recall my claim that emotion in its simplest binary form – akin to pleasure or pain - carries the foundational semantic information bit that undergirds all learning systems, but emerges from the dynamics and logic of genetic, epigenetic and immune regulation. The Perception-Action-Cycle relies on the emotional component, so IMHO Lou is still on safe and important new ground.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Kate Kauffman</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div id="m_-8376838496817047991mail-editor-reference-message-container" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class="">On 1/12/25, 2:59 PM, "Fis" <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class="">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>> wrote: Katherine Peil Kauffman<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">Send Fis mailing list submissions to<br class=""> <span class=""> </span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class=""><br class="">To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br class=""> <span class=""> </span><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class="">https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.unizar.es%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ffis&data=05%7C02%7C%7C35e8064bf4c14affea6a08dd33545558%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638723159494036503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Dvr9QGZfaouyXo8ljRFL%2BTtN5x9gzbAUHrm%2FQnL2DFA%3D&reserved=0</a><br class="">or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br class=""> <span class=""> </span><a href="mailto:fis-request@listas.unizar.es" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class="">fis-request@listas.unizar.es</a><br class=""><br class="">You can reach the person managing the list at<br class=""> <span class=""> </span><a href="mailto:fis-owner@listas.unizar.es" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class="">fis-owner@listas.unizar.es</a><br class=""><br class="">When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br class="">than "Re: Contents of Fis digest..."<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">Today's Topics:<br class=""><br class=""> 1. Re: LOF Friday (Pedro C. Mariju?n)<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">----------------------------------------------------------------------<br class=""><br class="">Message: 1<br class="">Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2025 22:58:21 +0100<br class="">From: Pedro C. Mariju?n <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class="">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>><br class="">To:<span class=""> </span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class="">Subject: Re: [Fis] LOF Friday<br class="">Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:d93cbae2-038d-4733-8071-4f7b93a4f6d6@gmail.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class="">d93cbae2-038d-4733-8071-4f7b93a4f6d6@gmail.com</a>><br class="">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"<br class=""><br class="">Dear List,<br class=""><br class="">Please, take care to post properly (as the server automatically<span class=""> </span><br class="">demands), as otherwise I become rather overwhelmed wit all the different<span class=""> </span><br class="">warning messages. Thanks Lou for the tip about that.<br class=""><br class="">Well, I see a problem going from "percepts to concepts" as Lou claims<span class=""> </span><br class="">below. Neuroscience has nowadays a rare consensus on not dissociating<span class=""> </span><br class="">PERCEPTION and ACTION. The "Action Perception Cycle" is the most common<span class=""> </span><br class="">acceptation. The "concept" gets? not too far from either side, and<span class=""> </span><br class="">usually it is incorporating elements of each kind, with different<span class=""> </span><br class="">predominance. Joaqu?n Fuster (2008 and 2014 I think) coined the term<span class=""> </span><br class="">"cognit" to refer to the intermediate stage, having both percept ears<span class=""> </span><br class="">and action legs (so to speak). The union of cognits legs and ears (or<span class=""> </span><br class="">legs and legs, ears and ears, etc.) would give birth to different kinds<span class=""> </span><br class="">of concepts, and the union of concepts via shared cognits would give<span class=""> </span><br class="">rise to conceptualizations, sentences, etc. Having entered action in the<span class=""> </span><br class="">world scheme is not trivial at all. Our litmus test for reality is not<span class=""> </span><br class="">that the percept agrees with the concept, but with the action. It is, as<span class=""> </span><br class="">we consider in the world of science, the whole experimental part... the<span class=""> </span><br class="">"fact". As Goethe's Faust aptly says: "In the beginning was the deed"!<br class=""><br class="">My other brief pill refers again to autopoiesis. A few cellular<span class=""> </span><br class="">arguments not well tolerated (or only partially some of them) by<span class=""> </span><br class="">autopoiesis:<br class=""><br class="">--The enormous cellular importance of protein degradation. The world of<span class=""> </span><br class="">proteasomes (the cell "industry of destruction") is fascinating, even in<span class=""> </span><br class="">the simplest cells.<br class="">--The different classes of programmed cell death, essentially apoptosis,<span class=""> </span><br class="">is also of enormous multicell--and even bacterial-- importance.<br class="">--The absorption of external DNA is quite frequent, and even customary<span class=""> </span><br class="">in some bacteria.<br class="">--The horizontal gene transmission is of great evolutionary importance<span class=""> </span><br class="">too (the world of phages, plasmids, transposons...)<br class="">--A number of genes in E. coli are never expressed in a regular life<span class=""> </span><br class="">cycle (close to 30 or 40%, depending on the happenstances)<br class="">--The revolutionary role of 'external' viruses in the greatest evo<span class=""> </span><br class="">transitions (Villarroel, Witzany).<br class=""><br class="">So, even if you consider these caveats fulfilled in larger and larger<span class=""> </span><br class="">definitions of autopoiesis, there is another point that may be quite<span class=""> </span><br class="">troubling: information flow and signaling disappear, and are substituted<span class=""> </span><br class="">by the structural coupling with the environment and the observer<span class=""> </span><br class="">conceptualization involvement. The big concern is that advancement of<span class=""> </span><br class="">the life cycle, as the central hub to which signaling or external flows<span class=""> </span><br class="">cohere, and to which biological meaning relates, does not occupy its<span class=""> </span><br class="">explanatory essential role... while adaptively advancing the life cycle<span class=""> </span><br class="">is the silver thread that connects all biological world, including our<span class=""> </span><br class="">own societies.<br class=""><br class="">I understand that for a mathematician the AP idea is quite handy, and<span class=""> </span><br class="">fruitful, but for those interested in the evolution of signals,<span class=""> </span><br class="">sensibility, action, emotions, social emotions, etc. is perhaps a<span class=""> </span><br class="">stumbling block to overcome. By the way, your previous post to Krassimir<span class=""> </span><br class="">on information was quite valuable, a firm standpoint which I share. I<span class=""> </span><br class="">was trying to comment on it, but my daily schedule is bizarre.<br class=""><br class="">Best--Pedro<br class=""><br class=""></span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Fis mailing list<br class=""></span><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class=""><br class=""></span><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" 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