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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Thanks Pedro – great to hear from you. A quick comment on:
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">…. I see a problem going from "percepts to concepts" as Lou claims <br>
below. Neuroscience has nowadays a rare consensus on not dissociating <br>
PERCEPTION and ACTION. The "Action Perception Cycle"…<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">From the view of emotion science, this reflects a neurocentric problem wherein “cognition” (perceptual processing) confounds
<i>sensations that lead to actions</i> – embodied emotional sensations that came on the evolutionary stage well before nerve nets or brains. It is emotion that is central to action, behavior and motivation.<br>
<br>
Neuroscientist Jospeh LeDoux made this key distinction:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Cognitive computations</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">: Reflective, conscious, goal-directed thought, often linked to areas of the brain involved
in higher cognitive functions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""><b>Affective computations</b>: Automatic, unconscious, emotional processing, often linked to areas of the brain involved in emotional regulation and survival mechanisms. They always
concern “the self” and the lead to actions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">I can paraphrase his example…” there is a huge experiential difference between the thought that a snake is a reptile, that its skin can be made into belts and shoes, and the thought
that a snake is likely to be dangerous.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Recall my claim that emotion in its simplest binary form – akin to pleasure or pain - carries the foundational semantic information bit that undergirds all learning systems, but emerges
from the dynamics and logic of genetic, epigenetic and immune regulation. The Perception-Action-Cycle relies on the emotional component, so IMHO Lou is still on safe and important new ground.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Kate Kauffman
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 1/12/25, 2:59 PM, "Fis" <fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es> wrote: Katherine Peil Kauffman<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Send Fis mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: LOF Friday (Pedro C. Mariju?n)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2025 22:58:21 +0100<br>
From: Pedro C. Mariju?n <pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com><br>
To: fis@listas.unizar.es<br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] LOF Friday<br>
Message-ID: <d93cbae2-038d-4733-8071-4f7b93a4f6d6@gmail.com><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
Dear List,<br>
<br>
Please, take care to post properly (as the server automatically <br>
demands), as otherwise I become rather overwhelmed wit all the different <br>
warning messages. Thanks Lou for the tip about that.<br>
<br>
Well, I see a problem going from "percepts to concepts" as Lou claims <br>
below. Neuroscience has nowadays a rare consensus on not dissociating <br>
PERCEPTION and ACTION. The "Action Perception Cycle" is the most common <br>
acceptation. The "concept" gets? not too far from either side, and <br>
usually it is incorporating elements of each kind, with different <br>
predominance. Joaqu?n Fuster (2008 and 2014 I think) coined the term <br>
"cognit" to refer to the intermediate stage, having both percept ears <br>
and action legs (so to speak). The union of cognits legs and ears (or <br>
legs and legs, ears and ears, etc.) would give birth to different kinds <br>
of concepts, and the union of concepts via shared cognits would give <br>
rise to conceptualizations, sentences, etc. Having entered action in the <br>
world scheme is not trivial at all. Our litmus test for reality is not <br>
that the percept agrees with the concept, but with the action. It is, as <br>
we consider in the world of science, the whole experimental part... the <br>
"fact". As Goethe's Faust aptly says: "In the beginning was the deed"!<br>
<br>
My other brief pill refers again to autopoiesis. A few cellular <br>
arguments not well tolerated (or only partially some of them) by <br>
autopoiesis:<br>
<br>
--The enormous cellular importance of protein degradation. The world of <br>
proteasomes (the cell "industry of destruction") is fascinating, even in <br>
the simplest cells.<br>
--The different classes of programmed cell death, essentially apoptosis, <br>
is also of enormous multicell--and even bacterial-- importance.<br>
--The absorption of external DNA is quite frequent, and even customary <br>
in some bacteria.<br>
--The horizontal gene transmission is of great evolutionary importance <br>
too (the world of phages, plasmids, transposons...)<br>
--A number of genes in E. coli are never expressed in a regular life <br>
cycle (close to 30 or 40%, depending on the happenstances)<br>
--The revolutionary role of 'external' viruses in the greatest evo <br>
transitions (Villarroel, Witzany).<br>
<br>
So, even if you consider these caveats fulfilled in larger and larger <br>
definitions of autopoiesis, there is another point that may be quite <br>
troubling: information flow and signaling disappear, and are substituted <br>
by the structural coupling with the environment and the observer <br>
conceptualization involvement. The big concern is that advancement of <br>
the life cycle, as the central hub to which signaling or external flows <br>
cohere, and to which biological meaning relates, does not occupy its <br>
explanatory essential role... while adaptively advancing the life cycle <br>
is the silver thread that connects all biological world, including our <br>
own societies.<br>
<br>
I understand that for a mathematician the AP idea is quite handy, and <br>
fruitful, but for those interested in the evolution of signals, <br>
sensibility, action, emotions, social emotions, etc. is perhaps a <br>
stumbling block to overcome. By the way, your previous post to Krassimir <br>
on information was quite valuable, a firm standpoint which I share. I <br>
was trying to comment on it, but my daily schedule is bizarre.<br>
<br>
Best--Pedro<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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