<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Gordana you rock!!!</span><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Eric</div><div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Jan 11, 2025, at 15:57, Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dear Lou,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Thank you very much for your lecture yesterday on Zoom, where you so generously shared your time and profound understanding across so many fields of knowledge</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">:</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">f</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">rom discussing the meaning of “=”</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">,</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
to the autopoietic construction of constraints in living systems, to the preferred sequence for teaching basic arithmetic operations (+, -, ×, ÷) to children</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">W</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">e didn’t have time to explore the intriguing question
you raised in your mail</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
<span lang="EN-US">below</span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">"My favorite conundrum is non-locality in quantum mechanics. This discussion was framed for cybernetics/biology. But consider that two ‘particles,’
separated in spacetime but entangled, have something (unarticulated) in common. How can this be? I think the best answer is that they are indeed part of a larger whole, a whole that needs a wider base than spacetime.<br>
People try to make the connection concrete and in spacetime, such as a wormhole (Susskind), but I believe that it is deeper than that, perhaps simpler than that, having all to do with the way distinctions appear to us—even though they are purely imaginary.
This paragraph was written just to possibly get you going in the direction of fundamental physics."</span></i></b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">You added, intriguingly, that you are neither a Kantian nor a Platonist.</span><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I,
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">am</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> Kantian
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">in this respect</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">, as I believe in
<i>Das Ding an Sich</i></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">, “</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">objective reality</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">”
or reality independent of humans</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">.
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">We are
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">constantly
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">learning more about the world,
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">and
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">it is impossible to exhaust
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">its resources for</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">sense-making</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> through
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">our
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">finite means.
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Our reality is a construction made of material found in the world.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">A</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">s we learn, we change not only our understanding
but also the world itself. </span><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">For example, bacteria and viruses existed during the time of Plato and Aristotle, even though they had no
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">idea</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">. Their
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">understanding</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">of</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> sickness reflected their tools and methods.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Relating
</span></b><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Epistemology</span></b><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> to Non-Locality and Entanglement<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">In my humble opinion,
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">the best</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> way to think about non-locality and entanglement is
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">as a simple consequence of conservation laws.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">It means approaching it through</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
</span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Quantum Bayesianism (QBism)</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">.
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hans von Baeyer delivered an excellent New Year
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">FIS
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">lecture on this topic in 2014, which you can find in the FIS Archives:<br>
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.mail-archive.com/fis@listas.unizar.es/msg01927.html__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VnabX3u8vJY6RBSSWEFPoF7RddjTh3b69TFtMd6aVdhVw6JTln4CBGtlfIYxQvnEuSrUNKwtbSPaD1v0BiXI2uwyOA6rS9GV$" target="_new">New Year Lecture by Hans von Baeyer</a></span><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">He</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">later published</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> the book
<b><i>QBism: The Future of Quantum Physics</i></b>.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Another</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">,</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
independent</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">,</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> voice is Inge S. Helland, a Norwegian statistician
whose book <b><i>Epistemic Processes: A Basis for Statistics and Quantum Theory</i></b>
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">gives</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> a Bayesian epistemic perspective on quantum mechanics.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Epistemology of Entanglement<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">From an epistemological standpoint, entanglement does not reflect a mysterious physical link between particles. Instead, it reveals correlations in our
knowledge of the system</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
<span lang="EN-US">(conservation laws for spin, momentum, energy). </span></span><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">In this framework:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0cm" start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The wavefunction represents an observer’s
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">epistemological
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">individual beliefs, not an
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">”</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">objective</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">”</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
physical reality</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
<span lang="EN-US">which is bigger than that</span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Measurement is an active process where the observer interacts with reality to update their knowledge.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Epistemology is not passive—it is shaped through the observer’s interaction with reality, intertwining beliefs and actions.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">This view aligns with
<i>Relational Quantum Mechanics</i>, which emphasizes the role of observers and information in constructing reality.</span><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Criticisms of Bayesianism<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Critics often dismiss Bayesianism as "subjective"</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">,</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
but this term is heavily loaded. A more accurate description would be “individual”</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
The initial step of any scientific inquiry is always individual—a single person thinking, measuring, or experimenting.
<i>Objectivity</i> (or rather, <b><i>intersubjectivity</i></b>) arises through <i>
verification</i>: when independent researchers reproduce the same theory, measurements, or experiments, the findings are provisionally accepted by the scientific community.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Human knowledge is dynamic and constantly evolving, shaped by new discoveries and reinterpretations. QBism resonates with this process, highlighting how
<b>epistemology is active, human-centric, and participatory.</b><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Why I
</span></b><b><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">f</span></b><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">avor QBism<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">QBism aligns with how I understand epistemology</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">It emphasizes
<b>active, distributed knowledge construction</b> shaped by cognizing agents.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Reality, in this view, is
<b>participatory, dynamic, and co-constructed through the actions of observers</b>.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I believe this approach offers a
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">parsimonious</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> perspective on the nature of entanglement, non-locality,
and the broader relationship between knowledge and reality. It aligns with themes from your New Year Lecture and extends naturally into applications in biology and cognitive science—areas central to my work on info-computation.
</span><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Notably, Karl Friston's well-known framework of
<b>Active Inference</b> follows a similar </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">logic</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">, emphasizing the
dynamic and participatory nature of knowledge construction</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Thank you again for the opportunity to engage in this conversation, and I would love to hear your thoughts on this perspective.</span><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Best regards,<br>
Go</span><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">r</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">dana<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Louis Kauffman <loukau@gmail.com><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, 8 January 2025 at 09:49<br>
<b>To: </b>Gordana CHALMERS <gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se><br>
<b>Cc: </b>fis <fis@listas.unizar.es><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Fis] Biologic - at the interface between biology, topology, logic and cybernetics (by Lou Kauffman)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Gordana,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This sounds approximately right, except that when you speak of formalization in relation to Kauffman it sounds like it might be something like the formal systems that the logicians propagate.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">(Base structures are letters/characters. Then everything is built up in a logico-textual manner out of text strings.) Kauffman is an advocate of diagrammatic systems, games, playing and process. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">So it comes out different somehow.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">More like the cartoon below.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">One only groks such things in the course of human interaction, and such diagrammatic systems are meaningless without observers/interpretants and lots of discussion.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Oh, by the way, it is a tenet of my profession that everything that we do can be translated into the logician type formal systems. It does not work of course, but it is remarkable how much does go over.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">What is so interesting is what does not go over. For example, since the Greeks we have the notion of empty space. But the only way we have managed to formalize this in logico-formalist terms is by saying that a space is a collection<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">of points (not empty at all!) with some special structure. Oy! The only way you get to empty space is by being silent, and then it shows itself. We need those non-thoughts to do our work, and we humans need those <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">non-thoughts to do the work of crossing and erasing the boundaries that keep us in chains.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Maybe you will come back and answer this last paragraph with category theory. We can talk about that. The simplest category has one object and one morphism. Also not quite empty. The simplest set is simpler.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Just a frame for nothing: { }. The form we take to exist arises from framing nothing. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">My favorite conundrum is non-locality in quantum mechanics. This discussion was framed for cybernetics/biology. But consider that two “particles” separated in<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Spacetime but entangled have something (unarticulated) in common and ask yourself how this can be? I think the best answer is that they are indeed part of a larger whole, a whole that needs a wider base than spacetime.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">People try to make the connection concrete and in spacetime such as a wormhole (Susskind) but I believe that it is deeper than that, perhaps simpler than that, having all to do with the way distinctions appear to us<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">even though they are purely imaginary. This paragraph was written just to possibly get you going in the direction of fundamental physics.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I am neither a Kantian nor a Platonist and I suggest that there are no distinctions whatever in “Reality”.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">No space, no time, no thing.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Waiting for the next thought.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Best,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Lou<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><div><image001.jpg></div><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Dear All,<br>
In anticipation of Lou’s talk, I made this attempt to put Lou’s ideas in context of other authors.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">I have some questions too, but I save them for after the lecture on Friday.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">All the best,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Gordana</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Comparing Lou Kauffman, John Wheeler, Heinz von Foerster, and Douglas Hofstadter</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">reveals
common themes of recursion, self-reference, and the role of observers in constructing reality, but their approaches and emphases differ based on their disciplinary focuses.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF">1. Disciplinary Cont</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Aspect</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Lou Kauffman</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">John Wheeler</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Heinz von Foerster</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Douglas Hofstadter</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Field</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Mathematics, Cybernetics, Biology</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Theoretical Physics</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Cybernetics and Systems Theory</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Cognitive Science and Philosophy</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Key Concern</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Formalization of recursion and self-reference</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Information and the participatory nature of reality</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Observing systems, recursion, constructivism</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Consciousness, creativity, and self-referential loops</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF">2. Core Ideas</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Aspect</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Kauffman</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Wheeler</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Von Foerster</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Hofstadter</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Recursion</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Formalizes recursion using eigenforms, knot theory, and distinctions.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Recursion appears in quantum phenomena and the iterative actualization of reality.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Recursion underpins feedback loops and system dynamics.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Recursion is central to "strange loops" that generate consciousness.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Self-Reference</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Eigenforms model systems observing themselves mathematically.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Observers influence reality through self-referential acts of measurement.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Observers construct themselves within systems through reflexivity.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Self-referential loops create the sense of "I."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Information</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Encodes recursion and biological replication processes mathematically.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Reality arises from information (bits) processed through observation.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Information is a feedback-driven construct of observers.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Information transforms into meaning through recursive cognitive structures.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Observer’s Role</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Observer is implicit in the mathematics of self-reference and recursion.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Observer "creates" reality by participating in quantum processes.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Observer is embedded in systems, shaping reality through distinctions.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Observer is a recursive entity, defined by strange loops.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF">3. Philosophical Orientation</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Aspect</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Kauffman</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Wheeler</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Von Foerster</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Hofstadter</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Ontology</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Self-reference and recursion are universal principles underlying biological and logical systems.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Reality is informational and participatory, emerging through observation.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Reality is constructed by observers, with no objective existence outside distinctions.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Reality and identity emerge from recursive cognitive processes.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Epistemology</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Knowledge arises through formal systems modeling distinctions and recursion.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Knowledge is observer-dependent, grounded in informational interactions.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Observers generate knowledge through recursive observation and feedback.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Knowledge is emergent, shaped by cognitive and symbolic recursion.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Human-Centeredness</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Focuses on universal principles; less anthropocentric.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Anthropocentric in framing the universe as participatory.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Embeddedness of observers is central but not anthropocentric.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Deeply human-centered, exploring how recursion shapes human thought.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF">4. Commonalities and Differences</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Commonalities</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Recursion and Self-Reference</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">All four thinkers see<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>recursion and self-reference as central<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>to understanding systems,
whether biological (Kauffman, von Foerster), physical (Wheeler), or cognitive (Hofstadter).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Role of Observers</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">The observer is integral in shaping reality across all frameworks, whether mathematically (Kauffman), quantum-mechanically (Wheeler), operationally (von Foerster), or cognitively
(Hofstadter).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Information as a Core Concept</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Each thinker places information at the heart of their theories, though interpreted differently (as formal systems for Kauffman, quantum bits for Wheeler, operational constructs for
von Foerster, and cognitive patterns for Hofstadter).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Differences</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Focus on Biology</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Kauffman and von Foerster deeply engage with biological systems, while Wheeler and Hofstadter primarily use them as metaphors.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Mathematical Formalism</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Kauffman emphasizes rigorous mathematical modeling, whereas von Foerster and Hofstadter lean toward conceptual approaches, and Wheeler bridges the two with quantum theory.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Scope of Inquiry</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"">Kauffman seeks universal principles spanning biology and mathematics. Wheeler focuses on the cosmos. Von Foerster centers on systems and constructivism. Hofstadter is more focused
on human consciousness and cognition.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Fis <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>>
on behalf of Louis Kauffman <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com">loukau@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Date:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 23:41<br>
<b>To:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com">itheaiss@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
<b>Subject:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [Fis] Biologic - at the interface between biology, topology, logic and cybernetics (by Lou Kauffman)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Krassimir and others,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It seems to me that I should not have sent all those papers!<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I offer a talk on these matters this Friday, Noon Chicago time.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Title: Biologic - at the interface between biology, topology, logic and cybernetics<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Speaker: Louis H Kauffman<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Time: Noon, Chicago time. Friday, January 10, 2025<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Join Zoom Meeting<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/uic.zoom.us/j/4809175166?pwd=SHp0amNNLzJhUHBncVRxT3lBNjIwUT09__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XdwZRY8ylgw5YoRAg_UFqz2_YVnj6IuLdZAV5CZ5Soh8UtJCpiC0Fj4PFGk_aENf8x4ysT_KT6hs25dX$">https://uic.zoom.us/j/4809175166?pwd=SHp0amNNLzJhUHBncVRxT3lBNjIwUT09</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Meeting ID: 480 917 5166<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Passcode: 0rw2GP<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Best,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Lou<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Jan 7, 2025, at 1:50 PM, Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com">itheaiss@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Plamen,<br>
I take your note on multidimensionality as something very important.<br>
In this regard, I would like to note that multidimensionality is inherent in our everyday life. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I myself designed and participated in the implementation of an industrial information system that has been operating for 30 years and is used for multidimensional modeling of business processes. At its core lies a system for operating with
an infinitely-dimensionally numbered information space, i.e. data is stored on the basis of coordinate vectors with a variable and practically unlimited length.<br>
This is truly another world!<br>
<br>
Dear Lou,<br>
First of all, I would like to note that I, like Plamen, need time to familiarize myself with and complete the difficult "homework" that was assigned to us. At the moment, I am very carefully and in depth reading "Self-Reference, Biologic and the Structure of
Reproduction". But these are 71 pages, and I have to familiarize myself with more text. However, I already have two topics in mind that I would like us to talk about:<br>
1. Multidimensional languages and systems for modeling biological entities and processes.<br>
2. Information at the quantum level.<br>
There will probably be something else...<br>
<br>
With respect,<br>
Krassimir<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:13.5pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#41424E">Virus-free.<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XIIUo2kCPEBwmLwjlHRotwgnUns6gELu_I0pResJZh2wE8BNVdCtgB0QRCXULAOMCwPQ__llEBJpzU5cfpA$" target="_blank"><span style="color:#4453EA">www.avast.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Fis mailing list</span><br><span>Fis@listas.unizar.es</span><br><span>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span><br><span>----------</span><br><span>INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL</span><br><span></span><br><span>Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.</span><br><span>Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</span><br><span>Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.</span><br><span>http://listas.unizar.es</span><br><span>----------</span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>