<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear Jason,<div class="">My favorite Zen Story!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Yes, what you say is consistent with my view.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There is a distinction we have and do not always recognize between the “corporeal” world of everyday perception/conception and the “physical” world of quantum states and evolutions.</div><div class="">In quantum theory one makes this distinction. A physical state is modeled by a vector in a complex space (Hilbert space). It can evolve physically, deterministically by what are called unitary transformations.</div><div class="">These preserve the “length” of the vector — which means this: The vector represents (as Heisenberg and Stu Kauffman like to say) the potentia of the situation. </div><div class="">The vector represents all the possibilities that can possibly actualize in the corporeal world</div><div class="">In relation to this state. Each possibility is a coordinate of the vector, a complex number. The sum of the absolute squares of these complex numbers adds to one (it might be an infinite sum).</div><div class="">When a measurement is made, the vector actualizes as a definite event in the corporeal world and one of the possibilities occurs with “probability” the absolute square of its coordinate”.</div><div class="">This means that the vector is carrying a probability distribution AND any quantum process preserves the total sum of the probabilities. In other words, a quantum process moves the probability distribution and the entire “Potentia”</div><div class="">along from one state to the other. This preservation is called conservation of “quantum information”.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Some imagine that quantum information solves the problem of consciousness.</div><div class="">You can think about that.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The evolution of potentia goes on deterministically unless there is a measurement. </div><div class="">Measurement makes the potential into the actual at the corporeal level.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The confusions that occur in most discussions about quantum mechanics have to do with how potential becomes actual and what is the meaning of actual.</div><div class="">In the corporeal world we have qualitative as well as quantitative measures. The qualitative is not seen in quantum measurement process. Quantum measurement process is strictly quantitative.</div><div class="">So there are many many structures and distinctions in the corporeal world that are not part of that Hilbert space model. The famous Schrodinger’s Cat experiment is a good example. If you take the quantum model literally, then the cat after one hour is</div><div class="">In a superposition state of |LiveCat> + |DeadCat> and requires a “measurement” to have the “collapse of the wave function” to Live or to Dead. Schrodinger orginally presented this as absurd, because we know that cats are not in superpositions.</div><div class="">The point is that the cat is not in the Physical World of Determined Quantum Evolutions of Potentia. The cat is in the corporeal world and after one hour the cat is either alive or dead whether you open the door to the chamber or not. </div><div class="">That is common sense. And Schrodinger did not expect that the others would abandon common sense to a world of superpositions of cats and many worlds. Yikes. But that is how it goes. Good theory gone wrong. And you have to admit that it</div><div class="">remains a problem what is the distinction between the quantum physical and the corporeal.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">When we reach down to a tiny world of molecules and look for knotted DNA just like somehow rope in our hands, this is a daring gesture in the direction of the corporeal.</div><div class="">Some people are working on the relation of these experiments with quantum states. The bonding of the molecules depends on quantum physics. You are right next to quantum chemistry.</div><div class="">And you are also right next to the alternate possible where entirely new molecular structures might come into being.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I made a distinction between the quantum physical world and the corporeal world. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There is no distinction between the quantum world and the corporeal world.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There is no mirror.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Wittgenstein wrote:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><img apple-inline="yes" id="DBBB9818-7B8D-4892-962E-D319FC68CBA0" width="723" height="227" src="cid:519B15B3-1D44-4071-8F13-9354A593AC65" class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The great mirror does not exist.</div><div class="">The subject does belong to the world.</div><div class="">There is no mirror.</div><div class="">Best,</div><div class="">Lou</div><div class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 8, 2025, at 1:00 PM, Jason Hu <<a href="mailto:jasonthegoodman@gmail.com" class="">jasonthegoodman@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Dear Lou,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">To resonate with your point about the nothingness of nothing, I have been guessing for a long time since I heard about quantum entanglement: If we take those tiny little quantum as if they can be observer themselves, then they do not have this thing named "spacetime" in their view at all. Alas, "spacetime" is just a human construction coming from the human cognitive system, specifically Einsteins. And the independent "space" and "time" were constructed by earlier humans... not quantum! So, the human-named entanglement is not an issue of them at all. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Is this consistent with your thoughts?</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">I have to invoke a famous story in Buddhism. One senior monk wrote a poem on the wall of their temple:</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">"The body is like a bodhi tree,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">The mind is like a bright mirror,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Always wipe it, please,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">don't let it get dusty."</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Then, among the crowd, a younger junior monk wrote the following:</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">"The bodhi tree is not a tree,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">nor is the mirror a mirror,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">there is <b class="">nothing</b> there,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">how can dust collect?"</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">So, the junior monk became the Sixth Patriarch of Buddhism (Chan section). His name was Hui-neng, 638-713 AD.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Cheers! - Jason</div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 8, 2025 at 3:15 AM Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <<a href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se" class="">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg5584537966400596271">
<div lang="en-SE" style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class="">
<div class="m_365992717621074753WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Dear Lou,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Thank you for this wonderful and overwhelming answer! I will need a few days to try to understand it as much as I can.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">You are right that the comparisons I sketched are very crude, but I hope they serve as a starting point to orient the discussion.
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">When we learn, we use our previous knowledge to connect the dots. I have been trying to connect from John Wheeler, Heinz von Foerster, and Douglas
Hofstadter.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">The picture is vast, and the details are fuzzy (not just the details—the entire construction feels fuzzy),
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><br class="">
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">but it helps me to begin forming relationships and moving between the dots.
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Of course, the formalization you propose is quite different from the formal systems pursued by logicians, and I appreciate the distinction.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Thanks again for elucidating your position. I look forward to your lecture on Friday, at noon Chicago time,
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><br class="">
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">which I understand is 7 o’clock in the evening in Stockholm.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Best regards,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Gordana<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm" class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:
</span></b><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Louis Kauffman <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">loukau@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Date: </b>Wednesday, 8 January 2025 at 09:49<br class="">
<b class="">To: </b>Gordana CHALMERS <<a href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se" target="_blank" class="">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Cc: </b>fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Subject: </b>Re: [Fis] Biologic - at the interface between biology, topology, logic and cybernetics (by Lou Kauffman)<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Dear Gordana,</p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal">This sounds approximately right, except that when you speak of formalization in relation to Kauffman it sounds like it might be something like the formal systems that the logicians propagate.</p>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">(Base structures are letters/characters. Then everything is built up in a logico-textual manner out of text strings.) Kauffman is an advocate of diagrammatic systems, games, playing and process. </p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">So it comes out different somehow.</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">More like the cartoon below.</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">One only groks such things in the course of human interaction, and such diagrammatic systems are meaningless without observers/interpretants and lots of discussion.</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Oh, by the way, it is a tenet of my profession that everything that we do can be translated into the logician type formal systems. It does not work of course, but it is remarkable how much does go over.</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">What is so interesting is what does not go over. For example, since the Greeks we have the notion of empty space. But the only way we have managed to formalize this in logico-formalist terms is by saying that a space is a collection</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">of points (not empty at all!) with some special structure. Oy! The only way you get to empty space is by being silent, and then it shows itself. We need those non-thoughts to do our work, and we humans need those </p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">non-thoughts to do the work of crossing and erasing the boundaries that keep us in chains.</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Maybe you will come back and answer this last paragraph with category theory. We can talk about that. The simplest category has one object and one morphism. Also not quite empty. The simplest set is simpler.</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Just a frame for nothing: { }. The form we take to exist arises from framing nothing. </p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">My favorite conundrum is non-locality in quantum mechanics. This discussion was framed for cybernetics/biology. But consider that two “particles” separated in</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Spacetime but entangled have something (unarticulated) in common and ask yourself how this can be? I think the best answer is that they are indeed part of a larger whole, a whole that needs a wider base than spacetime.</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">People try to make the connection concrete and in spacetime such as a wormhole (Susskind) but I believe that it is deeper than that, perhaps simpler than that, having all to do with the way distinctions appear to us</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">even though they are purely imaginary. This paragraph was written just to possibly get you going in the direction of fundamental physics.</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">I am neither a Kantian nor a Platonist and I suggest that there are no distinctions whatever in “Reality”.</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">No space, no time, no thing.</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Waiting for the next thought.</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Best,</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Lou</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span lang="SV" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" class="">
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Dear All,<br class="">
In anticipation of Lou’s talk, I made this attempt to put Lou’s ideas in context of other authors.</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">I have some questions too, but I save them for after the lecture on Friday.</span></p>
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<div class=""><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">All the best,</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Gordana</span></p>
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<div class=""><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Comparing Lou Kauffman, John Wheeler, Heinz von Foerster, and Douglas Hofstadter</span></b><span class="m_365992717621074753apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class=""> </span></span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">reveals
common themes of recursion, self-reference, and the role of observers in constructing reality, but their approaches and emphases differ based on their disciplinary focuses.</span></p>
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<div class=""><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";color:rgb(4,50,255)" class="">1. Disciplinary Cont</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Aspect</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Lou Kauffman</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">John Wheeler</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Heinz von Foerster</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Douglas Hofstadter</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Field</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Mathematics, Cybernetics, Biology</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Theoretical Physics</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Cybernetics and Systems Theory</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Cognitive Science and Philosophy</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Key Concern</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Formalization of recursion and self-reference</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Information and the participatory nature of reality</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Observing systems, recursion, constructivism</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Consciousness, creativity, and self-referential loops</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";color:rgb(4,50,255)" class="">2. Core Ideas</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Kauffman</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Wheeler</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Von Foerster</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Hofstadter</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Formalizes recursion using eigenforms, knot theory, and distinctions.</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Recursion appears in quantum phenomena and the iterative actualization of reality.</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Recursion underpins feedback loops and system dynamics.</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Recursion is central to "strange loops" that generate consciousness.</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Self-Reference</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Eigenforms model systems observing themselves mathematically.</span></p>
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<td style="padding:0.75pt" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Observers influence reality through self-referential acts of measurement.</span></p>
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<td style="padding:0.75pt" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Observers construct themselves within systems through reflexivity.</span></p>
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<td style="padding:0.75pt" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Self-referential loops create the sense of "I."</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Information</span></b></p>
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<td style="padding:0.75pt" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Encodes recursion and biological replication processes mathematically.</span></p>
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<td style="padding:0.75pt" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Reality arises from information (bits) processed through observation.</span></p>
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<td style="padding:0.75pt" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Information is a feedback-driven construct of observers.</span></p>
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<td style="padding:0.75pt" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Information transforms into meaning through recursive cognitive structures.</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Observer’s Role</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Observer is implicit in the mathematics of self-reference and recursion.</span></p>
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<td style="padding:0.75pt" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Observer "creates" reality by participating in quantum processes.</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Observer is embedded in systems, shaping reality through distinctions.</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Observer is a recursive entity, defined by strange loops.</span></p>
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<div class=""><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";color:rgb(4,50,255)" class="">3. Philosophical Orientation</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Aspect</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Kauffman</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Wheeler</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Von Foerster</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Hofstadter</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Ontology</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Self-reference and recursion are universal principles underlying biological and logical systems.</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Reality is informational and participatory, emerging through observation.</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Reality is constructed by observers, with no objective existence outside distinctions.</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Reality and identity emerge from recursive cognitive processes.</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Epistemology</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Knowledge arises through formal systems modeling distinctions and recursion.</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Knowledge is observer-dependent, grounded in informational interactions.</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Observers generate knowledge through recursive observation and feedback.</span></p>
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<td style="padding:0.75pt" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Knowledge is emergent, shaped by cognitive and symbolic recursion.</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Human-Centeredness</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Focuses on universal principles; less anthropocentric.</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Anthropocentric in framing the universe as participatory.</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Embeddedness of observers is central but not anthropocentric.</span></p>
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<td style="padding:0.75pt" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Deeply human-centered, exploring how recursion shapes human thought.</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book";color:rgb(4,50,255)" class="">4. Commonalities and Differences</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><i class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Commonalities</span></i></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Recursion and Self-Reference</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">All four thinkers see<span class="m_365992717621074753apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">recursion and self-reference as central<span class="m_365992717621074753apple-converted-space"> </span></b>to understanding systems,
whether biological (Kauffman, von Foerster), physical (Wheeler), or cognitive (Hofstadter).</span></p>
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<td width="216" valign="top" style="width:161.75pt;border-right:1pt solid windowtext;border-bottom:1pt solid windowtext;border-left:1pt solid windowtext;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Role of Observers</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">The observer is integral in shaping reality across all frameworks, whether mathematically (Kauffman), quantum-mechanically (Wheeler), operationally (von Foerster), or cognitively
(Hofstadter).</span></p>
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<td width="216" valign="top" style="width:161.75pt;border-right:1pt solid windowtext;border-bottom:1pt solid windowtext;border-left:1pt solid windowtext;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Information as a Core Concept</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Each thinker places information at the heart of their theories, though interpreted differently (as formal systems for Kauffman, quantum bits for Wheeler, operational constructs for
von Foerster, and cognitive patterns for Hofstadter).</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><i class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class=""> </span></i></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><i class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Differences</span></i></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Focus on Biology</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Kauffman and von Foerster deeply engage with biological systems, while Wheeler and Hofstadter primarily use them as metaphors.</span></p>
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<td width="216" valign="top" style="width:161.75pt;border-right:1pt solid windowtext;border-bottom:1pt solid windowtext;border-left:1pt solid windowtext;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Mathematical Formalism</span></b></p>
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<td width="380" valign="top" style="width:284.8pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:1pt solid windowtext;border-right:1pt solid windowtext;padding:0cm 5.4pt" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Kauffman emphasizes rigorous mathematical modeling, whereas von Foerster and Hofstadter lean toward conceptual approaches, and Wheeler bridges the two with quantum theory.</span></p>
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<td width="216" valign="top" style="width:161.75pt;border-right:1pt solid windowtext;border-bottom:1pt solid windowtext;border-left:1pt solid windowtext;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Scope of Inquiry</span></b></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Book"" class="">Kauffman seeks universal principles spanning biology and mathematics. Wheeler focuses on the cosmos. Von Foerster centers on systems and constructivism. Hofstadter is more focused
on human consciousness and cognition.</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">From:<span class="m_365992717621074753apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Fis <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>>
on behalf of Louis Kauffman <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">loukau@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Date:<span class="m_365992717621074753apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 23:41<br class="">
<b class="">To:<span class="m_365992717621074753apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">itheaiss@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Cc:<span class="m_365992717621074753apple-converted-space"> </span></b>fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:<span class="m_365992717621074753apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [Fis] Biologic - at the interface between biology, topology, logic and cybernetics (by Lou Kauffman)</span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Dear Krassimir and others,</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">It seems to me that I should not have sent all those papers!</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">I offer a talk on these matters this Friday, Noon Chicago time.</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Title: Biologic - at the interface between biology, topology, logic and cybernetics</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Speaker: Louis H Kauffman</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Time: Noon, Chicago time. Friday, January 10, 2025</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Join Zoom Meeting</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/uic.zoom.us/j/4809175166?pwd=SHp0amNNLzJhUHBncVRxT3lBNjIwUT09__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XdwZRY8ylgw5YoRAg_UFqz2_YVnj6IuLdZAV5CZ5Soh8UtJCpiC0Fj4PFGk_aENf8x4ysT_KT6hs25dX$" target="_blank" class="">https://uic.zoom.us/j/4809175166?pwd=SHp0amNNLzJhUHBncVRxT3lBNjIwUT09</a></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Meeting ID: 480 917 5166</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Passcode: 0rw2GP</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Best,</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Lou</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">On Jan 7, 2025, at 1:50 PM, Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">itheaiss@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Dear Plamen,<br class="">
I take your note on multidimensionality as something very important.<br class="">
In this regard, I would like to note that multidimensionality is inherent in our everyday life. </p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">I myself designed and participated in the implementation of an industrial information system that has been operating for 30 years and is used for multidimensional modeling of business processes. At its core lies a system for operating with
an infinitely-dimensionally numbered information space, i.e. data is stored on the basis of coordinate vectors with a variable and practically unlimited length.<br class="">
This is truly another world!<br class="">
<br class="">
Dear Lou,<br class="">
First of all, I would like to note that I, like Plamen, need time to familiarize myself with and complete the difficult "homework" that was assigned to us. At the moment, I am very carefully and in depth reading "Self-Reference, Biologic and the Structure of
Reproduction". But these are 71 pages, and I have to familiarize myself with more text. However, I already have two topics in mind that I would like us to talk about:<br class="">
1. Multidimensional languages and systems for modeling biological entities and processes.<br class="">
2. Information at the quantum level.<br class="">
There will probably be something else...<br class="">
<br class="">
With respect,<br class="">
Krassimir</p>
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br class="">
<br class="">
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br class="">
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br class="">
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