<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Dear Gordana,</div>This sounds approximately right, except that when you speak of formalization in relation to Kauffman it sounds like it might be something like the formal systems that the logicians propagate.<div class="">(Base structures are letters/characters. Then everything is built up in a logico-textual manner out of text strings.) Kauffman is an advocate of diagrammatic systems, games, playing and process. </div><div class="">So it comes out different somehow.</div><div class="">More like the cartoon below.</div><div class="">One only groks such things in the course of human interaction, and such diagrammatic systems are meaningless without observers/interpretants and lots of discussion.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Oh, by the way, it is a tenet of my profession that everything that we do can be translated into the logician type formal systems. It does not work of course, but it is remarkable how much does go over.</div><div class="">What is so interesting is what does not go over. For example, since the Greeks we have the notion of empty space. But the only way we have managed to formalize this in logico-formalist terms is by saying that a space is a collection</div><div class="">of points (not empty at all!) with some special structure. Oy! The only way you get to empty space is by being silent, and then it shows itself. We need those non-thoughts to do our work, and we humans need those </div><div class="">non-thoughts to do the work of crossing and erasing the boundaries that keep us in chains.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Maybe you will come back and answer this last paragraph with category theory. We can talk about that. The simplest category has one object and one morphism. Also not quite empty. The simplest set is simpler.</div><div class="">Just a frame for nothing: { }. The form we take to exist arises from framing nothing. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">My favorite conundrum is non-locality in quantum mechanics. This discussion was framed for cybernetics/biology. But consider that two “particles” separated in</div><div class="">Spacetime but entangled have something (unarticulated) in common and ask yourself how this can be? I think the best answer is that they are indeed part of a larger whole, a whole that needs a wider base than spacetime.</div><div class="">People try to make the connection concrete and in spacetime such as a wormhole (Susskind) but I believe that it is deeper than that, perhaps simpler than that, having all to do with the way distinctions appear to us</div><div class="">even though they are purely imaginary. This paragraph was written just to possibly get you going in the direction of fundamental physics.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I am neither a Kantian nor a Platonist and I suggest that there are no distinctions whatever in “Reality”.</div><div class="">No space, no time, no thing.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Waiting for the next thought.</div><div class="">Best,</div><div class="">Lou</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div><img apple-inline="yes" id="8EE59E08-150F-40B2-9786-9B2EED25E36D" src="cid:CD4B74D0-33FA-4918-B641-FB0445FABB00" class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><meta charset="UTF-8" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Dear All,<br class="">In antic</span><span style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;" class="">ipation of Lou’s talk, I made this attempt to put Lou’s ideas in context of other authors.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">I have some questions too, but I save them for after the lecture on Friday.</span><span lang="SV" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">All the best,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Gordana<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Comparing Lou Kauffman, John Wheeler, Heinz von Foerster, and Douglas Hofstadter</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>reveals common themes of recursion, self-reference, and the role of observers in constructing reality, but their approaches and emphases differ based on their disciplinary focuses.</span><span lang="SV" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book"; color: rgb(4, 50, 255);" class="">1. Disciplinary Cont<o:p class=""></o:p></span></b></div><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellpadding="0"><thead class=""><tr class=""><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Aspect<o:p class=""></o:p></span></b></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Lou Kauffman<o:p class=""></o:p></span></b></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">John Wheeler<o:p class=""></o:p></span></b></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Heinz von Foerster<o:p class=""></o:p></span></b></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Douglas Hofstadter<o:p class=""></o:p></span></b></div></td></tr></thead><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Field</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Mathematics, Cybernetics, Biology<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Theoretical Physics<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Cybernetics and Systems Theory<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Cognitive Science and Philosophy<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Key Concern</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Formalization of recursion and self-reference<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Information and the participatory nature of reality<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Observing systems, recursion, constructivism<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Consciousness, creativity, and self-referential loops<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr></tbody></table><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book"; color: rgb(4, 50, 255);" class="">2. Core Ideas<o:p class=""></o:p></span></b></div><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellpadding="0"><thead class=""><tr class=""><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Aspect<o:p class=""></o:p></span></b></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Kauffman<o:p class=""></o:p></span></b></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Wheeler<o:p class=""></o:p></span></b></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Von Foerster<o:p class=""></o:p></span></b></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Hofstadter<o:p class=""></o:p></span></b></div></td></tr></thead><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Recursion</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Formalizes recursion using eigenforms, knot theory, and distinctions.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Recursion appears in quantum phenomena and the iterative actualization of reality.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Recursion underpins feedback loops and system dynamics.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Recursion is central to "strange loops" that generate consciousness.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Self-Reference</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Eigenforms model systems observing themselves mathematically.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Observers influence reality through self-referential acts of measurement.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Observers construct themselves within systems through reflexivity.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Self-referential loops create the sense of "I."<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Information</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Encodes recursion and biological replication processes mathematically.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Reality arises from information (bits) processed through observation.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Information is a feedback-driven construct of observers.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Information transforms into meaning through recursive cognitive structures.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Observer’s Role</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Observer is implicit in the mathematics of self-reference and recursion.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Observer "creates" reality by participating in quantum processes.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Observer is embedded in systems, shaping reality through distinctions.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Observer is a recursive entity, defined by strange loops.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr></tbody></table><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book"; color: rgb(4, 50, 255);" class="">3. Philosophical Orientation<o:p class=""></o:p></span></b></div><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellpadding="0"><thead class=""><tr class=""><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Aspect<o:p class=""></o:p></span></b></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Kauffman<o:p class=""></o:p></span></b></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Wheeler<o:p class=""></o:p></span></b></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Von Foerster<o:p class=""></o:p></span></b></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Hofstadter<o:p class=""></o:p></span></b></div></td></tr></thead><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Ontology</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Self-reference and recursion are universal principles underlying biological and logical systems.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Reality is informational and participatory, emerging through observation.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Reality is constructed by observers, with no objective existence outside distinctions.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Reality and identity emerge from recursive cognitive processes.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Epistemology</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Knowledge arises through formal systems modeling distinctions and recursion.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Knowledge is observer-dependent, grounded in informational interactions.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Observers generate knowledge through recursive observation and feedback.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Knowledge is emergent, shaped by cognitive and symbolic recursion.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Human-Centeredness</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Focuses on universal principles; less anthropocentric.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Anthropocentric in framing the universe as participatory.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Embeddedness of observers is central but not anthropocentric.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td style="padding: 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Deeply human-centered, exploring how recursion shapes human thought.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr></tbody></table><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book"; color: rgb(4, 50, 255);" class="">4. Commonalities and Differences<o:p class=""></o:p></span></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Commonalities</span></i><i class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></i></div><table class="MsoTableGrid" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="592" style="width: 443.9pt; margin-left: -0.25pt; border-collapse: collapse; border: none;"><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td width="216" valign="top" style="width: 161.75pt; border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Recursion and Self-Reference</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td width="376" valign="top" style="width: 282.15pt; border-top-width: 1pt; border-right-width: 1pt; border-bottom-width: 1pt; border-style: solid solid solid none; border-top-color: windowtext; border-right-color: windowtext; border-bottom-color: windowtext; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">All four thinkers see<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">recursion and self-reference as central<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>to understanding systems, whether biological (Kauffman, von Foerster), physical (Wheeler), or cognitive (Hofstadter).<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td width="216" valign="top" style="width: 161.75pt; border-right-width: 1pt; border-bottom-width: 1pt; border-left-width: 1pt; border-style: none solid solid; border-right-color: windowtext; border-bottom-color: windowtext; border-left-color: windowtext; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Role of Observers</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td width="376" valign="top" style="width: 282.15pt; border-style: none solid solid none; border-bottom-width: 1pt; border-bottom-color: windowtext; border-right-width: 1pt; border-right-color: windowtext; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">The observer is integral in shaping reality across all frameworks, whether mathematically (Kauffman), quantum-mechanically (Wheeler), operationally (von Foerster), or cognitively (Hofstadter).<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td width="216" valign="top" style="width: 161.75pt; border-right-width: 1pt; border-bottom-width: 1pt; border-left-width: 1pt; border-style: none solid solid; border-right-color: windowtext; border-bottom-color: windowtext; border-left-color: windowtext; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Information as a Core Concept</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td width="376" valign="top" style="width: 282.15pt; border-style: none solid solid none; border-bottom-width: 1pt; border-bottom-color: windowtext; border-right-width: 1pt; border-right-color: windowtext; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Each thinker places information at the heart of their theories, though interpreted differently (as formal systems for Kauffman, quantum bits for Wheeler, operational constructs for von Foerster, and cognitive patterns for Hofstadter).<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr></tbody></table><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><i class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Differences</span></i><i class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></i></div><table class="MsoTableGrid" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="595" style="width: 446.55pt; margin-left: -0.25pt; border-collapse: collapse; border: none;"><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td width="216" valign="top" style="width: 161.75pt; border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Focus on Biology</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td width="380" valign="top" style="width: 284.8pt; border-top-width: 1pt; border-right-width: 1pt; border-bottom-width: 1pt; border-style: solid solid solid none; border-top-color: windowtext; border-right-color: windowtext; border-bottom-color: windowtext; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Kauffman and von Foerster deeply engage with biological systems, while Wheeler and Hofstadter primarily use them as metaphors.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td width="216" valign="top" style="width: 161.75pt; border-right-width: 1pt; border-bottom-width: 1pt; border-left-width: 1pt; border-style: none solid solid; border-right-color: windowtext; border-bottom-color: windowtext; border-left-color: windowtext; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Mathematical Formalism</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td width="380" valign="top" style="width: 284.8pt; border-style: none solid solid none; border-bottom-width: 1pt; border-bottom-color: windowtext; border-right-width: 1pt; border-right-color: windowtext; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Kauffman emphasizes rigorous mathematical modeling, whereas von Foerster and Hofstadter lean toward conceptual approaches, and Wheeler bridges the two with quantum theory.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td width="216" valign="top" style="width: 161.75pt; border-right-width: 1pt; border-bottom-width: 1pt; border-left-width: 1pt; border-style: none solid solid; border-right-color: windowtext; border-bottom-color: windowtext; border-left-color: windowtext; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Scope of Inquiry</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td><td width="380" valign="top" style="width: 284.8pt; border-style: none solid solid none; border-bottom-width: 1pt; border-bottom-color: windowtext; border-right-width: 1pt; border-right-color: windowtext; padding: 0cm 5.4pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Kauffman seeks universal principles spanning biology and mathematics. Wheeler focuses on the cosmos. Von Foerster centers on systems and constructivism. Hofstadter is more focused on human consciousness and cognition.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr></tbody></table><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Fis <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" class="">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>> on behalf of Louis Kauffman <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" class="">loukau@gmail.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Date:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 23:41<br class=""><b class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com" class="">itheaiss@gmail.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [Fis] Biologic - at the interface between biology, topology, logic and cybernetics (by Lou Kauffman)<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Dear Krassimir and others,<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">It seems to me that I should not have sent all those papers!<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">I offer a talk on these matters this Friday, Noon Chicago time.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Title: Biologic - at the interface between biology, topology, logic and cybernetics<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Speaker: Louis H Kauffman<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Time: Noon, Chicago time. Friday, January 10, 2025<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Join Zoom Meeting<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/uic.zoom.us/j/4809175166?pwd=SHp0amNNLzJhUHBncVRxT3lBNjIwUT09__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XdwZRY8ylgw5YoRAg_UFqz2_YVnj6IuLdZAV5CZ5Soh8UtJCpiC0Fj4PFGk_aENf8x4ysT_KT6hs25dX$" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://uic.zoom.us/j/4809175166?pwd=SHp0amNNLzJhUHBncVRxT3lBNjIwUT09</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Meeting ID: 480 917 5166<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Passcode: 0rw2GP<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Best,<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Lou<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">On Jan 7, 2025, at 1:50 PM, Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">itheaiss@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Dear Plamen,<br class="">I take your note on multidimensionality as something very important.<br class="">In this regard, I would like to note that multidimensionality is inherent in our everyday life. <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">I myself designed and participated in the implementation of an industrial information system that has been operating for 30 years and is used for multidimensional modeling of business processes. At its core lies a system for operating with an infinitely-dimensionally numbered information space, i.e. data is stored on the basis of coordinate vectors with a variable and practically unlimited length.<br class="">This is truly another world!<br class=""><br class="">Dear Lou,<br class="">First of all, I would like to note that I, like Plamen, need time to familiarize myself with and complete the difficult "homework" that was assigned to us. At the moment, I am very carefully and in depth reading "Self-Reference, Biologic and the Structure of Reproduction". But these are 71 pages, and I have to familiarize myself with more text. However, I already have two topics in mind that I would like us to talk about:<br class="">1. Multidimensional languages and systems for modeling biological entities and processes.<br class="">2. Information at the quantum level.<br class="">There will probably be something else...<br class=""><br class="">With respect,<br class="">Krassimir<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="1" cellpadding="0" style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(211, 212, 222);"><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td width="55" style="width: 41.25pt; border: none; padding: 9.75pt 0.75pt 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XIIUo2kCPEBwmLwjlHRotwgnUns6gELu_I0pResJZh2wE8BNVdCtgB0QRCXULAOMCwPQ__llEBJpzU5cfpA$" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="color: blue; border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0cm;" class=""><img border="0" width="46" height="29" id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:~WRD0002.jpg" alt="Image removed by sender." style="width: 0.4791in; height: 0.302in;" class=""></span></span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div></td><td width="470" style="width: 352.5pt; border: none; padding: 9pt 0.75pt 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; line-height: 13.5pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(65, 66, 78);" class="">Virus-free.<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XIIUo2kCPEBwmLwjlHRotwgnUns6gELu_I0pResJZh2wE8BNVdCtgB0QRCXULAOMCwPQ__llEBJpzU5cfpA$" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(68, 83, 234);" class="">www.avast.com</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr></tbody></table></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Fis mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br class="">----------<br class="">INFORMACI�N SOBRE PROTECCI�N DE DATOS DE CAR�CTER PERSONAL<br class=""><br class="">Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br class="">Puede encontrar toda la informaci�n sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas<br class="">Recuerde que si est� suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicaci�n en el momento en que lo desee.<br class="">http://listas.unizar.es<br class="">----------</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>