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<p>Dear Joseph,</p>
<p>The problem I was addressing was the origin of the universe and
its development -how that is possible given AQIs given the problem
of dimensionality and randomness. Your reply assumes that the
universe and its laws have already been created. The problem is
how to get to those laws and the accompanying ontology.</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Eric <br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/6/25 10:53 AM,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:145159266.24691.1736157221041@email.bluewin.ch">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<meta charset="UTF-8">
<div> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">Dear Eric,</span> </div>
<div class="default-style"> </div>
<div class="default-style"> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">Yes,
but only in quantum computing. In macroscopic, thermodynamic
reality, events are lawless and<em> non</em>-lawless.
Processes moving from actual to potential in a lawful fashion
are not insulated from random, "non-lawful" events. However,
the lawless ones follow a Boolean (binary, yes-no) logic; the
latter, non-lawless, a non-Boolean, non-Kolmogorovian one. The
phenomena summarized by the word "information" lie squarely in
the second category.</span> </div>
<div class="default-style"> </div>
<div class="default-style"> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">The
only assumption, not explicitly stated here, is that "time"
and "space" are variables not completely independent of one
another. Perhaps Thomas would be so kind as to criticize or
correct this point.</span> </div>
<div class="default-style"> </div>
<div class="default-style"> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">Thank
you an,d best wishes</span> </div>
<div class="default-style"> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">Joseph</span>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> Le 06.01.2025 10:11 CET, Eric Werner
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a> a écrit : </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<p>Dear Thomas,<br>
<br>
Let me first thank you for participating. Many in FIS may not
know that you are one of the world's top mathematical
physicists who works on the information-theoretic foundations
of cosmology and consciousness. A grand effort initiated by
von Weizsäcker (correct me if I'm wrong) with his theory of
Ur, the primordial bits of information that were to provide a
new foundation for physics. This work predated Wheeler's "Its
from Bits" by over a decade. You, von Weizsäcker's colleague,
continued that work by formalizing many of his ideas, in
particular, formalizing Ur's to AQIs. <br>
<br>
The questions I have surround the theme of how the can
complex, yet nonrandom structure of the universe arise from
randomized interactions of simple units. <br>
<br>
Your answer seems at the core to rely on interactions by way
of the tensor product of AQIs (2-dimensional quantum objects
in a Hilbert space). The tensor product allows the escape from
2-dimensions to higher dimensions, indeed a vast higher
dimensional structure I shall call UQI (for Universe based on
quantum information). <br>
<br>
One fundamental problem is that the actual universe has the
dimensions of space and time. There is no guarantee that the
dimension expansion generated by the tensor product should
generate space and time dimensions. Thus your theory seems to
rely on an interpretative system that gives pragmatic spatial
and temporal meaning to the dimensions of UQI. Such a
meta-framework would rely on additional independent
assumptions. <br>
<br>
Even if we accept the external additional assumption of a
meta-framework, a dimensional interpretative system, there is
still the problem of randomness. The combinatorics of AQIs
implies that most structures (UQIs) so generated are
Kolmogorov random, meaning irreducible to ordering laws. <br>
<br>
So either combinations of AQIs never realize a
spatial-temporal universe UQI or if they do, then the universe
UQI so generated is hopelessly random and lawless.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Eric <br>
<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> On 1/4/25 7:01 PM, Prof. Dr.
Thomas Görnitz wrote: </div>
<blockquote type="cite"> Dear all, <br>
My heartfelt thanks go to Josef, who implicitly points out to
me that I was much too brief in my explanations. <br>
I do not mean the AQIs are so abstract that they are merely
nothing. An AQI is a mathematically clearly defined quantum
structure, and the simplest one that can be imagined. <br>
The AQIs share the property of possible existence with matter
and energy primarily as quantum structures. Some material
particles also only exist virtually, such as quarks and
gluons. Nevertheless, virtual particles can produce real
effects, as can virtual photons. And of course, real material
particles and real photons also exist. <br>
Quantum theory is the area of natural science that makes it
clear that mere possibilities can also produce real actions. <br>
In everyday life, this is completely evident to us humans
when, for example, we speculate on the stock market, play the
lottery or take an umbrella with us based on the weather
forecast. <br>
In the case of a “possible existence”, Josef's remark comes
into play: “they exist and do not exist at the same time". <br>
An AQI exists in the sense that it can cause real actions. At
the same time, it does not exist in the sense that it should
be understood as a fact. Objects, for example, that appear to
us as reality or electromagnetic waves, whose emission and
reception can be registered as facts, can be designated as
real. <br>
Quantum theory, as a theory of possibilities, is based, as
Josef says, on a non-Boolean logic. <br>
Quantum theory can also be characterized as the physics of
wholes or the emergence of new phenomena. This is based on the
mathematical structure of the tensor product. In this process,
the dimensions of the state spaces of parts are
multiplicatively combined when a whole is formed. <br>
The essential effect of the mathematical structure of quantum
theory is the appearance of new properties in a totality, for
which there was no possible indication whatsoever in the parts
from which it was formed. <br>
In physics, it makes sense for pragmatic reasons to
distinguish between matter, energy and information. <br>
Matter has rest mass and can therefore remain in a certain
area of space for a certain period of time. Matter is inert
and localized. Objects are formed from it. Objects can appear
to be factual. <br>
Energy is the entity that is able to change the state of
matter, for example its motion or its form. Thus, in the
central impact of two billiard balls, the property of motion
is transferred from the impacting ball to the ball that is
hit. The first ball remains still and the second ball
continues to move. <br>
In everyday life, energy usually appears as kinetic energy,
i.e. as a property of matter, as movement. <br>
For over a century, energy has also been known to exist in a
form in which it is not bound to any matter, namely
electromagnetic radiation, i.e. real photons. <br>
A meaningful piece of information is one that can cause a
reaction, or the absence of a reaction, in a living being.
Living beings are localizable forms of matter, so information
that can have an effect on a living being requires a material
carrier, and an energetic carrier for transmission from the
source to the living being. <br>
For all living things, the absorption of information is a
process of electromagnetic interaction. This is trivial for
seeing, but it also applies equally to hearing, smelling,
tasting, touching and so on. Through the interaction with real
photons (Hertzian waves) and virtual ones (Coulomb force),
information about properties is transferred from a material
carrier to photons and from there to the recipient, the living
being. <br>
In physics, we have learned to measure unknown or
uninteresting information, i.e. information without a clear
meaning. We start with a model, for example of particles, to
which we assign the possibility of a location and a velocity.
We then specify a framework, for example a particle number, a
volume and a total energy. Then you can calculate which states
are possible in this system. This unknown amount of
information becomes the entropy of the system. However, if,
for example, the particles have a structure and thus more
degrees of freedom, if they are complicated molecules, then
with an improved model the entropy also changes. In this
sense, entropy is always relative, i.e. based on certain
conditions and assumptions. <br>
Now, within the framework of the general theory of relativity,
there are structures that have a horizon, black holes. Of
these objects, we can only know their electric charge, their
angular momentum and, above all, their mass. Anything else
that could be imagined about their possible internal states
is, in principle, unknowable from the outside. <br>
As Jakob Bekenstein showed, such objects therefore have an
entropy that exceeds everything previously conceivable by many
orders of magnitude. <br>
With entropy, we therefore know the orders of magnitude of the
amount of information hidden inside a black hole. At the same
time, however, it is impossible to make a meaningful statement
about the specific states to which this information could
refer. <br>
If, in a thought experiment, we could observe the cosmos from
the outside like a black hole, then we could deduce the amount
of trapped total information from the trapped total energy. <br>
At any given time, the amount of total information in the
cosmos is equal to the amount of AQIs. <br>
This means that at any given time, the maximum amount of
possible information in the cosmos can be estimated. Some of
this quantum information in the cosmos will form into what we
reasonably call matter. Another part will form into what we
call energy, or photons. Yet another smaller part of it we
will call properties of matter or properties of photons. <br>
Such properties can be exchanged between matter and photons
and trigger energies provided in living beings, thus producing
actions. <br>
Information that can produce actions can be said to be
meaningful. <br>
In my perception, all possible definitions of information
refer to what is referred to here as meaningful information. <br>
Therefore, the term “protyposis” stands for a quantum
structure that can be mathematically described as a quantum
bit, but to which no concrete meaning can yet be assigned,
which in this sense can be described as meaning-free, as
abstract. <br>
The AQIs have the complete two-dimensional complex-valued
state space of quantum theory. The fundamental inclusion of
imaginary numbers fundamentally distinguishes them from the
quantum bits in quantum computing. There, with the Bloch
sphere, the bits have a two-dimensional state space only over
the real numbers. <br>
From the point of view of natural science, the basis of matter
and energy is an absolute, i.e. still meaning-free, quantum
information. <br>
This is still a challenging thesis, even though the relevant
calculations have long been published in peer-reviewed
journals. <br>
Possible ideas are facilitated if one realizes that quantum
theory has already shown something to be incompatible, such as
an object and its property, specifically matter and motion, to
be equivalent and thus convertible into one another. <br>
E=mc^2 was discovered in the context of special relativity,
but the inevitable appearance of antimatter in these processes
shows that it is a quantum phenomenon. <br>
With the large accelerators, matter can now be converted into
motion and motion into matter on Earth. This suggests that the
two are based on something in common. <br>
Particles with a rest mass, as well as photons without a rest
mass, have an infinite-dimensional space of states. This is an
indication of a very complex structure. The simplest quantum
structures, on the other hand, have a two-dimensional space of
states. <br>
The mathematical structure of quantum theory makes it possible
to understand how we can go from such AQIs to construct
structures with properties such as those of particles, which –
such as a rest mass, for example – are not accessible to the
AQIs alone. <br>
If the simplest quantum structure, an AQI, has the smallest
possible action, that of an action quantum h, then it can, of
course, also be assigned a value for energy. Since action is
defined as energy multiplied by time and the relevant time is
the age of the cosmos, the energy of an AQI must also be
time-dependent. <br>
Thus, depending on the respective cosmic time, an AQI has the
smallest energy possible from a physics point of view. Quantum
theory shows that the smallest energy can be assigned the
largest possible wavelength. <br>
With many AQIs, more and more energy can be localized better
and better. <br>
About 10^41 AQIs can form a proton. To form a hypothetical
Planck particle with a diameter of 10^(- 35) m, 10^61.5 AQIs
are necessary. <br>
As Beckenstein has shown, only one bit of entropy is possible
in such a minimal black hole. All the remaining 10^61.5 AQIs
that form such a Planck particle cannot be called entropy.
They relate to the accessible theoretical information about
the localization of this tiny object in a vast cosmos. <br>
Eric pointed out the ontological aspects of information.
However, the term ontology is understood somewhat differently
in computer science than in philosophy. <br>
In philosophy, ontology is the study of being. Reductionism
seeks to explain the existing from a fundamental and simple
structure. For thousands of years, the idea of indivisible
smallest particles, from Greek ἄτομον (uncuttable,
indivisible), was used for this. Quantum theory shows the
error of this idea. Small particles are, as mentioned, highly
complicated. <br>
A reductionism that thinks additively is impossible for
fundamental structures. <br>
Quantum theory, on the other hand, operates multiplicatively
with the tensor product of the state spaces from the simple to
the complex. <br>
Therefore, to my knowledge, it is the only
scientific-mathematical theory that can explain the emergence
of something new that is more and different than the sum of
its parts. <br>
In this form of an explanation of the complex from the
simplest structures, “emergence” is implicitly mathematically
built in from the outset. <br>
Once again, best wishes for 2025 for everyone <br>
Thomas <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Quoting <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" moz-do-not-send="true">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>:
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> Dear Eric, <br>
<br>
You deserve the credit and our thanks for your first
paragraph, especially your formulations as questions. Since
they apparently lead to absurdities (discontinuities),
though, is not the solution to change the interpretation
based on aspects of quantum computation? <br>
<br>
In the 2nd paragraph, one needs to avoid the "Richard Rorty"
error that everything is relative. <br>
<br>
I like your 3rd paragraph, but not the last sentence,
because I think, especially in informational terms, we
should talk about processes rather than "things". Then I
think we can say with more confidence that the composition
(structure) of a thing (process) is somewhat dependent on
its form, giving form the more dynamic interpretation or
role that it has, for example, in Eastern thought. <br>
<br>
Your last sentence is thus right on, and we can envision a
minimal ontological bridging between even arithmetic and its
results. <br>
<br>
Cheers, <br>
Joe <br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> Le 01.01.2025 17:12 CET, Eric
Werner <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>
a écrit : <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear All, <br>
<br>
Happy New Year and let it be a peaceful year! <br>
<br>
But intellectual peace can lead to boredom, so let's get
into some conflicts of ideas. <br>
<br>
Joseph, you or Leibniiz are getting at a fundamental
problem in how quantum computation on set of possible
states which if they were real of miminal Planck size
would take up more space than is available in the
Universe. So they cannot be real in the sense of taking up
space. If not spatially real can they be temporally real?
Or will it take more time than the age of the universe to
operate on those possibilities? If so then they are not
temporally real. <br>
<br>
Thomas and Karl: In terms of meaning in the real world of
humans and animals meaning seem to be relative to the
subject-agent when messages act on and transform the
representational state of the agent-receiver-subject be it
his or her information state, intentional state or
evaluate-emotional state. <br>
<br>
In effect, one might call these levels of ontology where
information is relative to the level of ontology of the
observer-agent. The information at one level of ontology
can be independent of the information at a lower or
higher level of ontology. In other words, reductionism
does not seem to hold for ontological levels. The
composition of a thing is somewhat if not totally
independent of its form. <br>
<br>
So to the process of arithmetic can be different from the
result. <br>
<br>
Best, <br>
<br>
Eric <br>
<br>
On 1/1/25 4:13 PM, <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch"
moz-do-not-send="true">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>
wrote: <br>
<br>
> Dear Thomas and All, <br>
> Happy New Year! <br>
> <br>
> I apologize to Pedro and Krassimir for coming back to
the Jason/Thomas dialogue but I believe the following
point is a critical one: <br>
> <br>
> Thomas wrote: <br>
> These quantum structures with a two-dimensional
Hilbert space are to be thought of as absolute and
completely abstract, not as properties <br>
> of a material or energetic structure. I call them
AQIs. The AQIs form matter, energy, as well as the
properties of matter and energy. <br>
> <br>
> It it seems to me this position runs into a Leibniz
"bind": if AQI's are completely abstract, how can they
form anything, let alone matter/energy with which they do
not share properties? To the extent that quanta are quanta
of energy, is it then correct to call them AQI's? In your
response to Jason, you make it clear that this is not the
case. The AQI's are units of action, but my comment still
holds. <br>
> <br>
> The only solution I see is to adopt a principle that
All have never explicitly accepted, namely that, AQI's are
and are not abstract; they exist and do not exist at the
same time. Understood in this way, they could form a basis
for reality and its non-Boolean logic, now with apologies
to Louis. <br>
> <br>
> Thank you anyway, <br>
> Joseph <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> > Dear Dr. Goernitz, <br>
> > Can AQI exist independently from its context -
or some larger structure (matter or energy)? By "exist," I
mean stability with a relevant longer time. <br>
> > By "longer time," I mean in the range of human
perception, even with the help of cognitive instruments.
Just curious. <br>
> > Best regards - Jason <br>
> > <br>
> > On Mon, Dec 30, 2024 at 2:00 AM Prof. Dr. Thomas
Görnitz <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.demailto:goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de"
moz-do-not-send="true"><goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de
mailto:goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de></a> wrote: <br>
> > <br>
> > > Dear All, <br>
> > > I would like to start by wishing everyone a
healthy, successful and <br>
> > > hopefully more peaceful new year. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Now a few comments from me on the current
contributions, regarding <br>
> > > information and meaning. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Natural science seeks rules and laws for
the processes in nature. <br>
> > > However, due to the expansion of the
cosmos, there are never two <br>
> > > completely identical situations. For an
individual case, however, the <br>
> > > idea of a rule is meaningless. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Rules require similarity, laws require –
not only in jurisprudence – equality. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Similarity and equality arise from sweeping
what appears to be <br>
> > > insignificant in the situations under
consideration under the carpet. <br>
> > > Changes to inanimate matter require the
expenditure of energy, but <br>
> > > living things can also be influenced by
meaningful information. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Scientific explanation starts from simple
structures to explain <br>
> > > complicated structures. <br>
> > > Chemistry explains the biochemical basis of
life. Quantum mechanics <br>
> > > provides the theoretical basis for
chemistry. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > The simplest quantum structures that are
mathematically possible have <br>
> > > only a two-dimensional state space. It
therefore makes sense to call <br>
> > > them quantum bits. <br>
> > > The particles of quantum mechanics and,
with that, the quantum field <br>
> > > theories can be constructed from these
structures. <br>
> > > This means that matter can be understood as
a special form of such <br>
> > > quantum bits. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > It has been known for some time that
quantum theory relativizes <br>
> > > distinctions that are important for
everyday life. E=mc^2 shows the <br>
> > > equivalence of matter with motion, i.e.
with one of its properties. <br>
> > > The distinction between force and matter is
reduced to the distinction <br>
> > > between fermions and bosons, which can be
converted into one another <br>
> > > under certain conditions. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > These quantum structures with a
two-dimensional Hilbert space are to <br>
> > > be thought of as absolute and completely
abstract, not as properties <br>
> > > of a material or energetic structure. I
call them AQIs. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > The AQIs form matter, energy, as well as
the properties of matter and energy. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Life only emerged relatively late in the
development of the cosmos, <br>
> > > and only for living things can something
become meaningful. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Quoting Karl Javorszky <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.commailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><karl.javorszky@gmail.com
mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com></a>: <br>
> > > <br>
> > > > Again, one wonders. <br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > Marcus writes: <br>
> > > > you also invoke ‘meaning’ which is
notoriously difficult to define – where <br>
> > > > do you clearly define meaning? <br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > There is a perfectly valid definition
of meaning available for all who <br>
> > > > have access to the FIS list. <br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > The last time this définition was
shared with the Learned Friends was 21 <br>
> > > > days ago, 9th December 2024, in a
letter to Xueshan. <br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > *Information has been defined (eg
Liaisons Among Symbols) as the totality <br>
> > > > of ∆ (n?, n!).* <br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > *Meaning has been defined (op. cit.)
as the relation of a context to at <br>
> > > > least one of the Central Elements.* <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Prof. Dr. Thomas Görnitz <br>
> > > Fellow of the INTERNATIONAL ACADEMY OF
INFORMATION STUDIES <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Privat (für Postsendungen): <br>
> > > Karl-Mangold-Str. 13 <br>
> > > D-81245 München <br>
> > > Tel: 0049-89-887746 <br>
> > > <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://goernitzunderstandingquantumtheory.com/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Twd5A-cSLW8XBCnqHSJSmnpnRgk8TzmugecCjfUIUl15bOVeXlewBLt5Z82oDgMW23D9dJVIhIcotYDJNuXxBAlvzbWnJw$"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://goernitzunderstandingquantumtheory.com/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Twd5A-cSLW8XBCnqHSJSmnpnRgk8TzmugecCjfUIUl15bOVeXlewBLt5Z82oDgMW23D9dJVIhIcotYDJNuXxBAlvzbWnJw$</a>
<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Fachbereich Physik <br>
> > > J. W. Goethe-Universität Frankfurt/Main <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > >
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> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER
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-- <br>
Dr. Eric Werner, FLS <br>
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br>
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de
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<br>
---------- <br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Prof. Dr. Thomas Görnitz <br>
Fellow of the INTERNATIONAL ACADEMY OF INFORMATION STUDIES <br>
<br>
Privat (für Postsendungen): <br>
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Fachbereich Physik <br>
J. W. Goethe-Universität Frankfurt/Main <br>
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INFORMACIN SOBRE PROTECCIN DE DATOS DE CARCTER PERSONAL <br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo
gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza. <br>
Puede encontrar toda la informacin sobre como tratamos sus
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<br>
---------- </blockquote>
<div class="moz-signature"> -- <br>
<em> Dr. Eric Werner, FLS <br>
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RhItcD22CurfK7Iruhq42Nw8TQkBMY2Upa98kX2zRs3dnUFUe4IW9XK6377x640QTjytq63PDRu9BwPugrETHn8$"
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---------- <br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL <br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo
gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza. <br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus
datos en el siguiente enlace:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
<br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede
darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo
desee. <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es">http://listas.unizar.es</a> <br>
---------- </blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<i>
Dr. Eric Werner, FLS <br>
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br>
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