<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">Krassimir,<div><br></div><div>Interesting points – my thoughts.</div><div><br></div><div>Re #1 – I agree ‘no data’ (or even ‘noise’) = a TYPE of useful data. Do I understand you correctly on this point? But a problem here is that you also invoke ‘meaning’ which is notoriously difficult to define – where do you clearly define meaning? We all have a common sense view of meaning but we also know that view is not enough for purposes of FIS.</div><div><br></div><div>I believe your #2 is tied up with a long-lived (subtle?) debate that has plagued FIS ever since I joined – claims that ‘information exists ONLY alongside Life (re manufactured, inquiry). This issue is also tied up with defining meaning. In the past I believe I have seen you take alternating positions so I am unsure of your view on this matter. I see the problem here as the fact that information exists ONLY within a context – or if you remove the context all related data have no MEANING — where Life itself also exists ONLY within a context. How does one discuss information OR Life, but ignore the non-living context that precedes it? Unfortunately despite several attempts at reading your GIT I have never found any clarity on that matter, but which you now point to.</div><div><br></div><div>In a similar way, your #3 and #4 can be improved by detailing INTELLIGENCE instead of referring to knowledge, wisdom and the like – which necessarily arise as an expression of intelligence.</div><div><br></div><div>Lastly, do I understand you will be leading the 2025 New Year talk?! If so, that would be nice, to finally have a chance to discuss your GIT in detail!</div><div><br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature"><div dir="ltr">Marcus Abundis<div>55mrcs@gmail.com (best: email, chat, vid conf)</div><div>+1 538-388-5576 (2nd best: U. S. voicemail)</div>+41 62 844 21 93 (3rd best: Swiss home)</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Dec 30, 2024, at 12:19 AM, Krassimir Markov <itheaiss@gmail.com> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">Dear Jason,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">You have offered many
ideas.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">I will try to discuss
each of them, but due to the holidays, I will keep my answers short.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">1. Would it be better
if information = data * meaning?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="font-size:11pt">The main problem here
is that it is possible to have a case where there is no data received, but it
is relevant to the Subject (Infos). For example, if a drone loses contact with
the controller, i.e., </span>receives<span style="font-size:11pt"> no data, it automatically executes a return to
the starting point program. Or, if you're standing at a traffic light and it's
not working, i.e. you do not receive data, you will take action to cross the
intersection as if there is no traffic light. In other words, no data is data.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">Therefore, the
additive option (information = data + meaning) is the right one.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">2. d1 is "a
desire to know," d2 is "result of knowing," Information is
therefore manufactured, or an emergence, of the loop of inquiry, which is a
capacity that the Creator installed within us</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="font-size:11pt">Here we have a certain
discrepancy in the understanding of the process of information formation.
According to the General Information Theory (GIT), information is data that
corresponds to the so-called "information expectation", which is
actually a predictive mental model. Depending on the closeness of the data to
this model, we have corresponding quantity and quality of information. This
recognition is done in the temporary memory of Infos. A small part of the data
recognized as information is stored in long-term memory, i.e. become remembered
as a new or a renewed mental </span>model<span style="font-size:11pt"> (knowledge).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">So, the information is
not based on “difference” but on “proximity”!</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">And, if the Infos
could not generate information expectation, the incoming data remain as
unrecognized data. So, the “information” here is a “standard” one that the data
is not recognized. For example - UFOs.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">3. Russell Ackoff's
formula:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">Data (measurement
result) < Information < Knowledge < Understanding < Wisdom;</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">Within the GIT we have
another order:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="font-size:11pt">Data -> Recognition
(i.e. understanding) -> Information -> Knowledge.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="font-size:11pt">Wisdom, in my opinion,
is not in that order. It is the ability to use our knowledge in a complex way
to generate predictive mental models, i.e. the similar process as with data,
based on internal processing of memorized knowledge.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">4. Theory of Systems
and Maturana (Thank you for such a greeting card!).</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">Chilean biologist
Humberto Maturana Romesín is well known as one of the people who helped develop
cybernetics.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">Specifically, I would
note that in Theory of Systems instead of "organization" concepts such
as "functionality" and "relations with the environment" are
invoked.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">5. Finally, on Gregory
Bateson's slogan and its implications.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="font-size:11pt">Marcin Schröder
describes the situation well in his 2017 article (
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.mdpi.com/2504-3900/1/3/221__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WsNT91UnjE0eZQUZxplx2JP4RMeb6CHaSN6J_Dwwqxo-BSpqXGAwyZrl_XiwVleQqxfNK6UfVOh08scr3AI$">https://www.mdpi.com/2504-3900/1/3/221</a> ). I won't repeat it here, but I will
note that I think so too.</span><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">In addition, I think
that Bateson's slogan is popular mainly because of the concept of "larger
mind" that he had used<span style="font-size:11pt"> (<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.informationphilosopher.com/solutions/scientists/bateson/Bateson_Difference.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WsNT91UnjE0eZQUZxplx2JP4RMeb6CHaSN6J_Dwwqxo-BSpqXGAwyZrl_XiwVleQqxfNK6UfVOh0zoUDBg8$">https://www.informationphilosopher.com/solutions/scientists/bateson/Bateson_Difference.pdf</a>
, p.461). Possibly, the believers take it as proof of the
existence of God, but in fact it is an insult to religion, because, as it
is written in the Holy Books, God is everywhere, not only in the minds of
people and the artifacts of their informational interaction.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""> </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">6. The New Year Lecture will take place in the FIS list.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">Happy and successful
New Year!</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">With respect,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">Krassimir</p></div><div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br><table style="border-top:1px solid #d3d4de"><tbody><tr><td style="width:55px;padding-top:13px"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WsNT91UnjE0eZQUZxplx2JP4RMeb6CHaSN6J_Dwwqxo-BSpqXGAwyZrl_XiwVleQqxfNK6UfVOh0t2WypfU$" target="_blank"><img src="https://s-install.avcdn.net/ipm/preview/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;" data-unique-identifier=""></a></td><td style="width:470px;padding-top:12px;color:#41424e;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:18px">Virus-free.<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WsNT91UnjE0eZQUZxplx2JP4RMeb6CHaSN6J_Dwwqxo-BSpqXGAwyZrl_XiwVleQqxfNK6UfVOh0t2WypfU$" target="_blank" style="color:#4453ea">www.avast.com</a></td></tr></tbody></table><a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1"></a></div>
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