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<span style="font-size: 12pt;">Dear Karl,</span>
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<span style="font-size: 12pt;">I am glad we can enter another year with Pedro and All. Let us wish one another the best!</span>
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<span style="font-size: 12pt;">Your note reminded me of when you first argued, many years ago, that 2 X 5 was not equal to 5 X 2, and so on. I objected and still object to your concept as long as 2 and 5 are numbers. It is clear that if the 2 and the 5 refer to real objects - people or processes - 2 groups of 5 are not the same as 5 groups of 2. Please comment again, if you would. </span>
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<span style="font-size: 12pt;">As to the substance of your latest note, I have something to disagree with in each paragraph, sometmes just with implications about which I may not be fully right (who is?) but which may be worth discussing. Along these lines, perhaps you, Karl, are the best person to tell us where you think your approach is weak and might be improved.</span>
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<span style="font-size: 12pt;">1. Once you have made your statement about "Learned Friends" I wish you would avoid repeating. It may or may not refer to me; in either case I find it irritating.</span>
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<span style="font-size: 12pt;">2. I do npt like Peircean and other categorizations, which I consider epistemid, especially if they obscure dynamic process relatioms whoch I consider ontic, involving changes of energy.</span>
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<span style="font-size: 12pt;">3. As part of a process of its "coming about" and operating, "DNA" has more relations than those between numbers which can be ascribed to it. Nothing predicatble happens with or to DNA because of them.</span>
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<span style="font-size: 12pt;">4. I do not like categorizing anything, such as information in its appearances, as a substitute fpr a dialectical disussion of the appearance - reality duality. The role of information in this is central, and is part of both science and philosophy. I don't see what using the term "technical" brings here.</span>
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<span style="font-size: 12pt;">5. I think the best philosophical parts of our discussion that refer to the human condition involve more than neurology. Our neurology is something to be moved to and from something else which is, for me, our existence. </span>
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<span style="font-size: 12pt;">In conclusion, all of your terms can be retained, Karl, but only if their dynamic relation with other terms is allowed.</span>
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<span style="font-size: 12pt;">Thank you and again best wishes,</span>
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<span style="font-size: 12pt;">Joe </span>
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Le 25.12.2024 19:48 CET, Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky@gmail.com> a écrit :
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There are tendencies to make the scope of FIS smaller and more regulated. On the other hand, some arguments speak for keeping or even enlarging the catalog of subjects, the discussion of which enlightens and pleases the Learned Friends.
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Do not take off the fis list your attempts to clarify, categorise, typify information in its appearances.
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Such exchanges are the first reason we have assembled. The delineation between pure Techné and epistemology is important. Once we agree that say DNA needs to have iterations (because of the relations among 32, 97, 129) then the resulting big data crunch is applied science and no more philosophy.
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Philosophical questions remain, as one is undecided how to deal with the over-determination and how to count the extents of the part-truths which in their ensemble constitute the certainty. We don't have any ideas yet what to count, eg with respect to lust, inner balance, curiosity or evoking a memory content.
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These levels, aspects, prospects are yet philosophical, not in the technical process.
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Please keep the deliberations re catalog of current definitions of information,
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re what part of the work we do here is philosophical inquiry and what part is simply doing the necessary calculations. We can trust each other and any new soloist Pedro will introduce that their ideas will be attended to, even while we keep discussing our everlasting hobby / obsession, how to understand our own neurology.
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Don't go offline with the juiciest bits, if you don't mind.
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Karl
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Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">itheaiss@gmail.com</a>> schrieb am Mi., 25. Dez. 2024, 19:09:
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Dear Jason,
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Thanks for the very interesting letter!
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I have been meaning to write an analysis of the relationship between these two definitions for a long time. Perhaps now is the time to pay some attention to this matter.
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Yes, there is an intersection between the two definitions, and that's wonderful. But I think it's just an intersection, not a coincidence.
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Since a New Year's Lecture is held at the beginning of each year in the FIS list, and our conversation is unlikely to be interesting for everyone, I propose to discuss your idea and my considerations through a personal exchange of letters.
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Of course, there is nothing secret about this conversation, so let anyone who would like to take part in it write to me and that way they will be included in the conversation and will be able to express their opinions.
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My email address for this conversation is:
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Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">itheaiss@gmail.com</a>>
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Happy Holidays and Happy New Year 2025!
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With best wishes,
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Krassimir
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На сб, 21.12.2024 г. в 16:38 Jason Hu <<a href="mailto:jasonthegoodman@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">jasonthegoodman@gmail.com</a>> написа:
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Dear Krassimir and all colleagues,
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Would it be better if Information = Data*Meaning ?
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From a constructivist point of view, if Data = null or if Meaning = null then there is no information.
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Combining with my earlier suggestion that Information = A difference(d1) that maks a difference (d2), d1=data, d2=meaning;
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And we have d1=data=f(measurement), d2=meaning=f(cognition);
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For d1 you need to use your hand, take out your ruler and perform the measure; ("ruler" can expand to telescope, microscope, X-ray machine, MRI, CT, ... and what I call SysScope (System Thinking) and CybScope (Cybernetic Thinking));
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For d2 you obtain some "ah-ha" by running the little machine inside your head (most likely with outside assistant, such as, a pencil, a calculator, a computer, a ChatGPT, etc.)
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Therefore, d1 is "a desire to know," d2 is "result of knowing," Information is therefore manufactured, or an emergence, of the loop of inquiry, which is a capacity that the Creator installed within us.
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Russell Ackoff had a good formula:
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Data(result of measurement) < Information < Knowledge < Understanding < Wisdom;
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I think each layer above is an emergence emerged from the self-organizing circular-causalities of our brain, i.e. eigenstates at different levels.
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Merry Christamas and Happy New Year! - Jason
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<span style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; font-size: x-small;">------------------------------------</span>
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<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: xx-small;">Jason Jixuan Hu, Ph.D.</span>
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<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: xx-small;">Independent Research Scholar </span>
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<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: xx-small;">Organizer: Club of REMY: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.clubofremy.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!X7JQRu3uLBX6k0D4DHSOFygdPrKDbHaeD_hrHuAazjhYyhpK01WWXtdW3kaUcM2gvNjh3R6wjalNwBca0qc$" target="_blank" rel="noopener">www.clubofremy.org</a> </span>
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<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: xx-small;">General Partner: WINTOP Group: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.wintopgroup.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!X7JQRu3uLBX6k0D4DHSOFygdPrKDbHaeD_hrHuAazjhYyhpK01WWXtdW3kaUcM2gvNjh3R6wjalNPnuvlrc$" target="_blank" rel="noopener">www.wintopgroup.com</a> </span>
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<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: xx-small;">Introduction: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://drjasonhu.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!X7JQRu3uLBX6k0D4DHSOFygdPrKDbHaeD_hrHuAazjhYyhpK01WWXtdW3kaUcM2gvNjh3R6wjalNTATh3IE$" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://drjasonhu.com</a><br></span>
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<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: xx-small;">Wiki Page: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tinyurl.com/JJH008__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!X7JQRu3uLBX6k0D4DHSOFygdPrKDbHaeD_hrHuAazjhYyhpK01WWXtdW3kaUcM2gvNjh3R6wjalNh9Y_ZUQ$" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://tinyurl.com/JJH008</a> </span><span style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; font-size: x-small;"> </span>
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<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: xx-small;">office: <a href="mailto:jjh@wintopgroup.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">jjh@wintopgroup.com</a></span>
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<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: xx-small;">mobile: <a href="mailto:jasonthegoodman@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">jasonthegoodman@gmail.com</a></span>
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<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: xx-small;">---------------------------------------------------<br></span>
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On Sat, Dec 21, 2024 at 5:15 AM Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">itheaiss@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">Dear Xueshan,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">Thanks for the detailed answer.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">I will add that just as mathematics develops as (theoretical) mathematics and applied mathematics in different areas of practice, so too does information science develop as (theoretical) information science and applied information science in different areas of reality. Computer Science and Informatics develop as extensions of information science, directly related to the practice and implementation of machines for operating with data and knowledge.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">Therefore, I think it is justified to talk about:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">- information science and studies;</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">- applied information science and studies.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">I have a proposal for the subject and foundations of this science, but now is not the time to start such a discussion. Perhaps I will first publish concise texts that will be available for discussion.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">Dear Christophe,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">Of course, as it is pointed out in 2017 in our joint paper from the FIS discussion, information is data with meaning, i.e.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">information = data + meaning</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">Let's do a little transformation and transfer the "meaning" to the other side. We get:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">information - meaning = data</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">Since data are reflections in the receptors of the subject, we can say that:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">information - meaning = reflection, in a particular case = data.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">This consideration allows us to say that all developments and definitions based on "information without meaning" refer to reflections, in particular - data, and do not concern the information with which subjects operate. In fact, they all rediscover or further develop parts of the Theory of Reflections.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">Dear Gordana,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">I think I gave in my response to Xueshan above the answer to your question "What do we want the study of information to be?"</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">My answer to your other question, “Can we live with a plurality of notions of information?", is:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">- Yes, we can live with multiple definitions of information, but in fact there are not that many. In addition, some definitions define something else, but not the concept of "information", as we saw above. I will note, however, that it is difficult to find the methodological and factual shortcomings of the proposed new definitions, and this helps them to swarm.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">For example, regarding the publication of Stu Kaufman and Andrea Rolli, I will remember that I see in it a serious methodological flaw.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">I also argue " that no mathematics based on set theory can be used to deduce the diachronic emergence of adaptations in evolution". But this does not mean " that there can be no Final Theory that entails the becoming of the universe". Simply because modern mathematics has given us other tools, on the one hand, and on the other, there are a number of simulation approaches and systems that allow modeling these processes.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">In addition, we must remember that models are not reality itself, but its partial reflection, and therefore we cannot recreate reality through models, but we can externalize some of our ideas about it, creating corresponded models and thus make them available to other scientists who can continue further.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">But if we have no ideas, what do we expect our models to contain? This is exactly the case with the "becoming of the universe".</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">If no one has any idea, why is a model expected to reveal this on its own?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">Dear colleagues,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">We are on the threshold of the New Year 2025.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">Moreover, today, 21.12.2024, is the transition day to the New Bulgarian Year 7530, which starts tomorrow (<a style="color: blue;" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bgkalendar.com/?lang=en__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Q558tG6NM4auOvNpkSnhaG3WcaPF6oRTBzEUTby2ES5aHlHvv1AO6zKAOKCxCClqC5zRL243b5927vzUsnE$" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://bgkalendar.com/?lang=en</a>).</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">As the holiday season approaches, I want to express my warmest wishes for a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. May these holidays bring you peace, happiness and the opportunity to reflect on the successes and challenges of the past year. May the New Year 2025 be filled with groundbreaking discoveries, inspiring collaborations, and continued growth in all your scientific endeavors.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">Merry Holidays and a Happy New Year!</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">Warmest regards,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';">Krassimir</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri,'sans-serif';"> </p><img style="margin-right: 0px;" src="https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=471f6a2c1f&attid=0.1&th=193ff1affd46e807&view=fimg&fur=ip&rm=193ff1affd46e807&sz=w1600-h1000&attbid=ANGjdJ-JU06RO_qpBF1oFzFYd74nDL5rVM-tqBc-JZV960aKiuxc8LaOaT-H9HRpbhTiB_HWlafq_PGWgztZdKrL7P8b8h7ecBilsbH77XguOwr9u8Gtzrjbhrhnf-0&disp=emb&realattid=ii_m4y55c040&zw" alt="image.png" width="167" height="167">
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