<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Dear Krassimir, </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Thanks! I'm not aware of "New Year Lecture" you mentioned, is that a Zoom meeting or a lecture on paper? </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Either way, in addition to my previous message, may I add a view that concepts of "Information", "System", and "Cybernetics" needs to be defined together. I have a 4DST (4 Dimentional System Thinking) framework since 2001 when I first presented it on a conference in Vienna, if you might be interested. But here, let me bring your attention to a definition of "System" by Maturana, which is just a 6-minute clip: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGhb77Jj_k8&t=35s__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Xc92oO8Q5-JTYTq9TO1isPVwvqDwc0JDdLFh83S1qQOKij-zOQ0nJHaedPF2OBjaF3EbD4J4rvLDY_Wt8mtq0aSrwRdJ$">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGhb77Jj_k8&t=35s</a>. Please take it as my Merry Christmas and Happy New Year greeting card!</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Best regards - Jason</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Dec 25, 2024 at 11:08 AM Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com">itheaiss@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Dear Jason,<br>Thanks for the very interesting letter!<br><br>I have been meaning to write an analysis of the relationship between these two definitions for a long time. Perhaps now is the time to pay some attention to this matter.<br><br>Yes, there is an intersection between the two definitions, and that's wonderful. But I think it's just an intersection, not a coincidence.<br><br>Since a New Year's Lecture is held at the beginning of each year in the FIS list, and our conversation is unlikely to be interesting for everyone, I propose to discuss your idea and my considerations through a personal exchange of letters.<br><br>Of course, there is nothing secret about this conversation, so let anyone who would like to take part in it write to me and that way they will be included in the conversation and will be able to express their opinions.<br><br>My email address for this conversation is:<br> Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com" target="_blank">itheaiss@gmail.com</a>><br><br>Happy Holidays and Happy New Year 2025!<br>With best wishes,<br>Krassimir<br></div><div id="m_-5585846226494734232DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br><table style="border-top:1px solid rgb(211,212,222)"><tbody><tr><td style="width:55px;padding-top:13px"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Xc92oO8Q5-JTYTq9TO1isPVwvqDwc0JDdLFh83S1qQOKij-zOQ0nJHaedPF2OBjaF3EbD4J4rvLDY_Wt8mtq0YWJkN18$" target="_blank"><img src="https://s-install.avcdn.net/ipm/preview/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;"></a></td><td style="width:470px;padding-top:12px;color:rgb(65,66,78);font-size:13px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:18px">Virus-free.<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Xc92oO8Q5-JTYTq9TO1isPVwvqDwc0JDdLFh83S1qQOKij-zOQ0nJHaedPF2OBjaF3EbD4J4rvLDY_Wt8mtq0YWJkN18$" style="color:rgb(68,83,234)" target="_blank">www.avast.com</a></td></tr></tbody></table><a href="#m_-5585846226494734232_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1"></a></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">На сб, 21.12.2024 г. в 16:38 Jason Hu <<a href="mailto:jasonthegoodman@gmail.com" target="_blank">jasonthegoodman@gmail.com</a>> написа:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Dear Krassimir and all colleagues,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Would it be better if Information = Data*Meaning ?</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">From a constructivist point of view, if Data = null or if Meaning = null then there is no information.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Combining with my earlier suggestion that Information = A difference(d1) that maks a difference (d2), d1=data, d2=meaning; </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">And we have d1=data=f(measurement), d2=meaning=f(cognition);</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">For d1 you need to use your hand, take out your ruler and perform the measure; ("ruler" can expand to telescope, microscope, X-ray machine, MRI, CT, ... and what I call SysScope (System Thinking) and CybScope (Cybernetic Thinking));</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">For d2 you obtain some "ah-ha" by running the little machine inside your head (most likely with outside assistant, such as, a pencil, a calculator, a computer, a ChatGPT, etc.)</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Therefore, d1 is "a desire to know," d2 is "result of knowing," Information is therefore manufactured, or an emergence, of the loop of inquiry, which is a capacity that the Creator installed within us. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Russell Ackoff had a good formula:</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Data(result of measurement) < Information < Knowledge < Understanding < Wisdom;</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">I think each layer above is an emergence emerged from the self-organizing circular-causalities of our brain, i.e. eigenstates at different levels.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Merry Christamas and Happy New Year! - Jason</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:x-small">------------------------------------</span></div></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" size="1">Jason Jixuan Hu, Ph.D.</font></div><div><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" size="1">Independent Research Scholar </font></div><div><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" size="1">Organizer: Club of REMY: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.clubofremy.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Xc92oO8Q5-JTYTq9TO1isPVwvqDwc0JDdLFh83S1qQOKij-zOQ0nJHaedPF2OBjaF3EbD4J4rvLDY_Wt8mtq0Ykw11MM$" target="_blank">www.clubofremy.org</a> </font></div><div><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" size="1">General Partner: WINTOP Group: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.wintopgroup.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Xc92oO8Q5-JTYTq9TO1isPVwvqDwc0JDdLFh83S1qQOKij-zOQ0nJHaedPF2OBjaF3EbD4J4rvLDY_Wt8mtq0UXgmDDY$" target="_blank">www.wintopgroup.com</a> </font></div><div><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" size="1">Introduction: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://drjasonhu.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Xc92oO8Q5-JTYTq9TO1isPVwvqDwc0JDdLFh83S1qQOKij-zOQ0nJHaedPF2OBjaF3EbD4J4rvLDY_Wt8mtq0Z1S_uat$" target="_blank">https://drjasonhu.com</a><br></font></div><div><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" size="1">Wiki Page: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tinyurl.com/JJH008__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Xc92oO8Q5-JTYTq9TO1isPVwvqDwc0JDdLFh83S1qQOKij-zOQ0nJHaedPF2OBjaF3EbD4J4rvLDY_Wt8mtq0bJVllq9$" target="_blank">https://tinyurl.com/JJH008</a> </font><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:x-small"> </span></div><div><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" size="1">Video: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tinyurl.com/JJHsprach__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Xc92oO8Q5-JTYTq9TO1isPVwvqDwc0JDdLFh83S1qQOKij-zOQ0nJHaedPF2OBjaF3EbD4J4rvLDY_Wt8mtq0ZkPv4Lt$" target="_blank">https://tinyurl.com/JJHsprach</a></font></div><div><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" size="1">office: <a href="mailto:jjh@wintopgroup.com" target="_blank">jjh@wintopgroup.com</a></font></div><div><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" size="1">mobile: <a href="mailto:jasonthegoodman@gmail.com" target="_blank">jasonthegoodman@gmail.com</a></font></div><div><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" size="1">---------------------------------------------------<br></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Dec 21, 2024 at 5:15 AM Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com" target="_blank">itheaiss@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">Dear Xueshan,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">Thanks for the detailed answer.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">I will add that just as mathematics develops
as (theoretical) mathematics and applied mathematics in different areas of
practice, so too does information science develop as (theoretical) information
science and applied information science in different areas of reality. Computer
Science and Informatics develop as extensions of information science, directly
related to the practice and implementation of machines for operating with data
and knowledge.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">Therefore, I think it is justified to talk
about:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">- information science and </span>studies<span lang="BG">;</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">- applied information science and </span>studies<span lang="BG">.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">I have a proposal for the subject and
foundations of this science, but now is not the time to start such a
discussion. Perhaps I will first publish concise texts that will be available
for discussion.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">Dear Christophe,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">Of course, as </span>it is <span lang="BG"> pointed out in 2017 in our joint paper from
the FIS discussion, information is data with meaning, i.e.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">information = data + meaning</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">Let's do a little transformation and transfer
the "meaning" to the other side. We get:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">information - meaning = data</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">Since data are reflections in the receptors of
the subject, we can say that</span>:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">information - meaning = reflection, in a
particular case = data.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">This consideration allows us to say that all
developments and definitions based on "information without meaning"
refer to reflections, in particular - data, and do not concern the information
with which subjects operate. In fact, they all rediscover or further develop
parts of the Theory of Reflections.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">Dear Gordana,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">I think I gave in my response to Xueshan above
the answer to your question "What do we want the study of information to
be?"</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">My answer to your
other question, “Can we live with a plurality of notions of information?",
is:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">- Yes, we can live
with multiple definitions of information, but in fact there are not that many.
In addition, some definitions define something else, but not the concept of
"information", as we saw above. I will note, however, that it is
difficult to find the methodological and factual shortcomings of the proposed
new definitions, and this helps them to swarm.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">For example, r<span lang="BG">egarding the publication of Stu Kaufman and Andrea Rolli, I will </span>remember<span lang="BG"> that I see in </span>it<span lang="BG"> a serious
methodological flaw.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">I also argue " that no mathematics based
on set theory can be used to deduce the diachronic emergence of adaptations in
evolution". But this does not mean " that there can be no Final
Theory that entails the becoming of the universe". Simply because modern
mathematics has given us other tools, on the one hand, and on the other, there
are a number of simulation approaches and systems that allow modeling these
processes. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">In addition<span lang="BG">, we must remember that models are not reality itself, but its partial
reflection, and therefore we cannot recreate reality through models, but we can
externalize some of our ideas about it</span>, creating corresponded
models <span lang="BG">and thus make them available to other scientists
who can continue further.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">But if we have no ideas, what do we expect our
models to contain? This is exactly the case with the "becoming of the
universe".</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">If no one has any idea, why is a model
expected to reveal this on its own</span>?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">Dear colleagues,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">We are on the
threshold of the New Year 2025.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">Moreover, today, 21.12.2024,
is the transition day to the New Bulgarian Year 7530, which starts tomorrow (<span lang="BG"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bgkalendar.com/?lang=en__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Q558tG6NM4auOvNpkSnhaG3WcaPF6oRTBzEUTby2ES5aHlHvv1AO6zKAOKCxCClqC5zRL243b5927vzUsnE$" style="color:blue" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US">https://bgkalendar.com/?lang=en</span></a></span>).</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">As the holiday season approaches, I want to
express my warmest wishes for a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. May these
holidays bring you peace, happiness and the opportunity to reflect on the
successes and challenges of the past year. May the New Year 2025 be filled with
groundbreaking discoveries, inspiring collaborations, and continued growth in
all your scientific endeavors.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">Merry Holidays and a Happy New Year!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">Warmest regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG">Krassimir</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG"><br></span></p><img src="cid:ii_m4y55c040" alt="image.png" width="167" height="167" style="margin-right: 0px;"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span lang="BG"><br></span></p></div></div><div id="m_-5585846226494734232m_4710777315224074223m_-781366148132306471DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br><table style="border-top:1px solid rgb(211,212,222)"><tbody><tr><td style="width:55px;padding-top:13px"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Q558tG6NM4auOvNpkSnhaG3WcaPF6oRTBzEUTby2ES5aHlHvv1AO6zKAOKCxCClqC5zRL243b592GpHeRg0$" target="_blank"><img src="https://s-install.avcdn.net/ipm/preview/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;"></a></td><td style="width:470px;padding-top:12px;color:rgb(65,66,78);font-size:13px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:18px">Virus-free.<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Q558tG6NM4auOvNpkSnhaG3WcaPF6oRTBzEUTby2ES5aHlHvv1AO6zKAOKCxCClqC5zRL243b592GpHeRg0$" style="color:rgb(68,83,234)" target="_blank">www.avast.com</a></td></tr></tbody></table><a href="#m_-5585846226494734232_m_4710777315224074223_m_-781366148132306471_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1"></a></div>
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