<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Dear Gordana,</div>Formal systems and their definitions are ways to explore concepts and relationships.<div class="">At the very least, more than one formal system, and an openness to exploring others, is needed to explore even arithmetic much less complex concepts such as information.</div><div class="">So we can work with and create formalizations and use these even though they are necessarily incomplete; and the world is jury rigged with the continual presence of the alternate possible.</div><div class="">Best,</div><div class="">Lou<br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 17, 2024, at 2:36 AM, Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <<a href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se" class="">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta charset="UTF-8" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Lou Kauffman says:<br class="">“Look at how formalisms are made and definitions are produced.” … (description follows</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span lang="SV" class="">below</span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">)<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">At the same time:<br class=""></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Stu<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">“Kauffman and Andrea Roli have published<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">‘The World is Not a Theorem’</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>in<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">Entropy</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(2021), and<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">‘A Third Transition in Science?’</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>in<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">J. Roy. Soc. Interface</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(April 14, 2023), maintaining that the evolving biosphere is a propagating construction, not an entailed deduction. They argue that no mathematics based on set theory can be used to deduce the diachronic emergence of adaptations in evolution. The implication is that there can be no Final Theory that entails the becoming of the universe.”<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">So the basic question is: What do we want<b class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>the study of information<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>to be<b class="">?</b><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><ul type="disc" style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;" class=""><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">A formal system?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">A new kind of science?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">A new kind of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">knowledge</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>that incorporates cross-disciplinarity and different forms of knowledge, which we may not even understand today?</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span lang="EN-US" class="">L</span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">ike<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">e.g.,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">today’s AI, which touches everything—from formal knowledge to humanities, arts, music, and kinesthetic learning?</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><br class="">(</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">It is<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">not</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>how AI is taught at universities, but how it is done in practice.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">)</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></li></ul><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">It may be any of the above, or all of it, depending on the context. Can we live with a plurality of notions of information? I</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">t seems<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">we already do, but it would be good to understand their mutual relationships.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Best<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class="">Gordana<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Avenir Book";" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Fis <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>> on behalf of Louis Kauffman <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">loukau@gmail.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Date:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Monday, 16 December 2024 at 01:04<br class=""><b class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Mark Johnson <<a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>, Jason Cheung <<a href="mailto:jcheung889@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jcheung889@gmail.com</a>>, Marcus Abundis <<a href="mailto:55mrcs@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">55mrcs@gmail.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [Fis] Various Thoughts . . .<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Look at how formalisms are made and definitions are produced.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">These are models of concepts.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">The concepts are often broader and not fully encompassed by the specificity of the models.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">One limit of this is the incompleteness theorems for formal systems.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Another limit is that any definition is a form of distinction.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">You can’t define the form of distinction with one single definition that is not circular.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">Circular definitions are invitations to enter a spiraling process.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">GSB says “We take the form of distinction for the form.”, asking you to enter a a double helix of meaning for form and distinction together.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">HvF says “I am the observed relation between myself and observing myself.” Asking you to enter a double helix of the Self and Observing.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">I suggest that we can be creative in finding such circularities and making use of them for our understand and our understanding of understanding.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class="">On Dec 15, 2024, at 8:38 PM, Mark Johnson <<a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class="">Dear all,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class="">I think both FIS and the Club of Remy have provided plenty of examples of the problem. I agree with Jason that video can help because we get to "know" the people involved better. That's important because we use our technical words always in a relational context.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class="">But I wonder if it is perhaps necessary to define "definition" first. (And we might find we cannot do that either!) Might not the difficulty in defining "information" sit in controversy as to what a definition is? That is relational too...<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class="">Best wishes<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class="">Mark<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class="">On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, 10:57 Marcus Abundis, <<a href="mailto:55mrcs@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">55mrcs@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class="">Hey Jason – it looks like your post did NOT make it to the FIS listerserver (as far as I can tell). Are you actually *enrolled* in the FIS group? While I think anyone can READ FIS posts, I think you need to actually enroll on FIS to make FIS posts. Regardless, I have copied your message below for others to read.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class="">Also, while I appreciate your bringing this alternate venue to our attention (assuming you enroll and repost) . . . what *I* had in mind for collaboration was much more limited/narrow in the called upon number of contributors. The more-open approach your venue seems to suggest will (I think – yes, I read the description) only marginally improve on the current situation. What I had in mind, and what I think is called for is a much narrower actively collaborative document (many venues for this exist) that is later commented on by the larger FIS group.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=""><br clear="all" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" style="outline: 0px; border-spacing: 0px;"><tbody class=""><tr style="height: 22.5pt; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit;" class=""><td width="0" valign="bottom" style="width: 0.3pt; padding: 0cm; height: 22.5pt; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; line-height: 13.5pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 1pt; font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr><tr style="outline: 0px; font-style: inherit;" class=""><td width="0" valign="bottom" style="width: 0.3pt; padding: 0cm; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit;" class=""><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" style="outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; border-spacing: 0px;"><tbody class=""><tr style="outline: 0px; font-style: inherit;" class=""><td width="0" valign="top" style="width: 0.3pt; padding: 0cm; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; display: inline-block;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: inherit, serif;" class="">Error! Filename not specified.</span></b><span style="font-family: inherit, serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; vertical-align: baseline;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Proxima-Nova; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" class="">Marcus Abundis<o:p class=""></o:p></span></b></div></div><div style="margin-top: 2.25pt; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; vertical-align: baseline;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Proxima-Nova;" class="">Error! Filename not<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://specified.about.me/marcus.abundis__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWei4O9GQsB46itn0znsUUB-bd7G-1RWRqhFt3xI9rMClBH53-9__gOb_A6ZWbTMMobwZeEwq6fWwme6$" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">specified.</a></span></b><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Proxima-Nova;" class=""><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://specified.about.me/marcus.abundis__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RWei4O9GQsB46itn0znsUUB-bd7G-1RWRqhFt3xI9rMClBH53-9__gOb_A6ZWbTMMobwZeEwq6fWwme6$" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">about.me/marcus.abundis</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></td></tr><tr style="outline: 0px; font-style: inherit;" class=""><td width="0" valign="top" style="width: 0.3pt; padding: 6pt 0cm 0cm; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; text-align: right; background-color: rgb(197, 208, 224); vertical-align: baseline;" class=""><span style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0cm;" class=""><img border="0" width="88" height="4" id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:~WRD0005.jpg" alt="Image removed by sender." style="width: 0.9166in; height: 0.0416in;" class=""></span><span style="font-family: inherit, serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr></tbody></table><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; line-height: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr><tr style="height: 15pt; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit;" class=""><td width="0" valign="bottom" style="width: 0.3pt; padding: 0cm; height: 15pt; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit;" class=""></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class="">On Sun, Dec 15, 2024 at 6:35 AM Jason Hu <<a href="mailto:jasonthegoodman@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jasonthegoodman@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class="">Dear Marcus and All,<br class=""><br class="">I have been observing these conversations for a few weeks and see the pain of some of you struggling from individual cognition towards possible collective cognition or from individual wisdom towards some kind of collective wisdom, a very difficult task indeed. (Quote Marcus: "a very sore point and extraordinarily chronic – to the point of even inspiring too many odd/unhelpful/egoic insults and attacks..., ...How shall we proceed? ..., ...this goal might be best pursued by 2-3? committed (BEST QUALIFIED, non-egoic ‘fair witnesses’) individuals most likely equal to the task- perhaps working on a collaborative online document . .")<br class=""><br class="">My suggestion is that you can consider upgrading your mode of conversation from text email into face-to-face online meetings. Let me introduce you the platform of Club of Remy (sometimes called Mini-Macy-Meetings or "M cube.") <br class=""><br class="">"Mini" because we hold a discussion session if there are three colleagues interested in a same or similar topic, e.g., "How do we define information?" (Historical Macy Meetings had about thirty participants, so we are 1/10 in size) Each person prepare 7 PPT slides to highlight his/her points, to be presented on the meeting. So that will take the first hour. In the second hour, the three discussants engage into a deep "meeting of the minds." Audience are welcome but not neccessary, they can joing the discussion or just listen. The whole process is recorded and upload to YouTube for later viewers. Simple, effective, powerful.<br class=""><br class="">The Club of Remy website introduce this process in detail:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/clubofremy.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxri_Z2AF1$" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://clubofremy.org</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">You can find our video recordings here:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/YouTube.com@clubofremy/videos__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxrtf2zoXm$" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://YouTube.com@clubofremy/videos</a><br class=""> <br class="">Interested colleagues can send me a Title-Abstract-Outline of the topic you want to discuss (one page or one screenful in length). I post it to our club members (about 200) and perhaps to FIS members in this case. If there are two more people signing up to be discussants, the three will pick up a date. We usually have our meetings on Wednesdays (The historical Macy Meetings were on Tuesdays.)<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">I hope this message will qualify as "information" for you, i.e., "A difference that makes a difference." Even you are not accepting is this suggestion, it might provoke your thinking too.<br class=""><br class="">Best regards - Jason<br class="">------------------------------------<br class="">Jason Jixuan Hu, Ph.D.<br class="">Independent Research Scholar<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Organizer: Club of REMY: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.clubofremy.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxrglq6IDo$" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">www.clubofremy.org</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">General Partner: WINTOP Group:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.wintopgroup.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxriq4iqS3$" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">www.wintopgroup.com</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Introduction:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/drjasonhu.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxrgH_BTRL$" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://drjasonhu.com</a><br class="">Wiki Page:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tinyurl.com/JJH008__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxrlCe-_DX$" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://tinyurl.com/JJH008</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span> <br class="">Video:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tinyurl.com/JJHsprach__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxrsy5UYad$" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://tinyurl.com/JJHsprach</a><br class="">office:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:jjh@wintopgroup.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jjh@wintopgroup.com</a><br class="">mobile:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:jasonthegoodman@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jasonthegoodman@gmail.com</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Fis mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br class="">----------<br class="">INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br class=""><br class="">Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br class="">Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br class="">Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br class="">----------<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Fis mailing list<br class=""></span><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=""><br class=""></span><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></a><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=""><br class="">----------<br class="">INFORMACI�N SOBRE PROTECCI�N DE DATOS DE CAR�CTER PERSONAL<br class=""><br class="">Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br class="">Puede encontrar toda la informaci�n sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br class="">Recuerde que si est� suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicaci�n en el momento en que lo desee.<br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br class="">----------</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>