<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Look at how formalisms are made and definitions are produced.<div class="">These are models of concepts.</div><div class="">The concepts are often broader and not fully encompassed by the specificity of the models.</div><div class="">One limit of this is the incompleteness theorems for formal systems.</div><div class="">Another limit is that any definition is a form of distinction.</div><div class="">You can’t define the form of distinction with one single definition that is not circular.</div><div class="">Circular definitions are invitations to enter a spiraling process.</div><div class="">GSB says “We take the form of distinction for the form.”, asking you to enter a a double helix of meaning for form and distinction together.</div><div class="">HvF says “I am the observed relation between myself and observing myself.” Asking you to enter a double helix of the Self and Observing.</div><div class="">I suggest that we can be creative in finding such circularities and making use of them for our understand and our understanding of understanding.</div><div class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 15, 2024, at 8:38 PM, Mark Johnson <<a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" class="">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta charset="UTF-8" class=""><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">Dear all,</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">I think both FIS and the Club of Remy have provided plenty of examples of the problem. I agree with Jason that video can help because we get to "know" the people involved better. That's important because we use our technical words always in a relational context.</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div>But I wonder if it is perhaps necessary to define "definition" first. (And we might find we cannot do that either!) Might not the difficulty in defining "information" sit in controversy as to what a definition is? That is relational too...<div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Best wishes</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Mark</div></div></div><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, 10:57 Marcus Abundis, <<a href="mailto:55mrcs@gmail.com" class="">55mrcs@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size: large;">Hey Jason – it looks like your post did NOT make it to the FIS listerserver (as far as I can tell). Are you actually *enrolled* in the FIS group? While I think anyone can READ FIS posts, I think you need to actually enroll on FIS to make FIS posts. Regardless, I have copied your message below for others to read.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size: large;"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size: large;">Also, while I appreciate your bringing this alternate venue to our attention (assuming you enroll and repost) . . . what *I* had in mind for collaboration was much more limited/narrow in the called upon number of contributors. The more-open approach your venue seems to suggest will (I think – yes, I read the description) only marginally improve on the current situation. What I had in mind, and what I think is called for is a much narrower actively collaborative document (many venues for this exist) that is later commented on by the larger FIS group.</div><br clear="all" class=""></div><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 14px; font-family: proxima-nova-1, proxima-nova-2, Tahoma, Helvetica, Verdana, sans-serif; vertical-align: baseline; border-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); line-height: 18px;" class=""><tbody style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;" class=""><tr style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;" class=""><td style="padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-size: 0px; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; width: auto; height: 30px;" class=""> </td></tr><tr style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;" class=""><td style="padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; width: auto;" class=""><div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; line-height: 0;" class=""><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://about.me/marcus.abundis?promo=email_sig__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxrmx3jEeO$" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; color: rgb(43, 130, 173); text-decoration: none; display: inline-block;" class=""><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; border-spacing: 0px;" class=""><tbody style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;" class=""><tr style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;" class=""><td align="left" valign="top" style="padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: top; width: auto; line-height: 1;" class=""><img alt="--" width="0" height="0" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: block; width: 0px; height: 0px; overflow: hidden;" class=""><div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-weight: bold; font-style: inherit; font-size: 18px; font-family: proxima-nova-1, Proxima-Nova, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; vertical-align: baseline; line-height: 1; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" class="">Marcus Abundis</div><div style="margin: 3px 0px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-size: 12px; font-family: proxima-nova-1, Proxima-Nova, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; vertical-align: baseline;" class=""><img alt="http://" width="0" height="0" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: block; width: 0px; height: 0px; overflow: hidden;" class="">about.me/marcus.abundis</div></td></tr><tr style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;" class=""><td align="left" valign="top" style="padding: 8px 0px 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: top; width: auto; line-height: 1;" class=""><div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; text-align: right; background-color: rgb(197, 208, 224); height: 4px;" class=""><img src="http://d13pix9kaak6wt.cloudfront.net/signature/colorbar.png" alt="" width="88" height="4" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; float: right; display: block;" class=""></div></td></tr></tbody></table></a> </div></td></tr><tr style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;" class=""><td style="padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-size: 0px; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; width: auto; height: 20px;" class=""><br class=""></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div></div></div></div><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class="">On Sun, Dec 15, 2024 at 6:35 AM Jason Hu <<a href="mailto:jasonthegoodman@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">jasonthegoodman@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class="">Dear Marcus and All,<br class=""><br class="">I have been observing these conversations for a few weeks and see the pain of some of you struggling from individual cognition towards possible collective cognition or from individual wisdom towards some kind of collective wisdom, a very difficult task indeed. (Quote Marcus: "a very sore point and extraordinarily chronic – to the point of even inspiring too many odd/unhelpful/egoic insults and attacks..., ...How shall we proceed? ..., ...this goal might be best pursued by 2-3? committed (BEST QUALIFIED, non-egoic ‘fair witnesses’) individuals most likely equal to the task- perhaps working on a collaborative online document . .")<br class=""><br class="">My suggestion is that you can consider upgrading your mode of conversation from text email into face-to-face online meetings. Let me introduce you the platform of Club of Remy (sometimes called Mini-Macy-Meetings or "M cube.") <br class=""><br class="">"Mini" because we hold a discussion session if there are three colleagues interested in a same or similar topic, e.g., "How do we define information?" (Historical Macy Meetings had about thirty participants, so we are 1/10 in size) Each person prepare 7 PPT slides to highlight his/her points, to be presented on the meeting. So that will take the first hour. In the second hour, the three discussants engage into a deep "meeting of the minds." Audience are welcome but not neccessary, they can joing the discussion or just listen. The whole process is recorded and upload to YouTube for later viewers. Simple, effective, powerful.<br class=""><br class="">The Club of Remy website introduce this process in detail:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://clubofremy.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxri_Z2AF1$" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">https://clubofremy.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">You can find our video recordings here:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://YouTube.com@clubofremy/videos__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxrtf2zoXm$" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">https://YouTube.com@clubofremy/videos</a><br class=""> <br class="">Interested colleagues can send me a Title-Abstract-Outline of the topic you want to discuss (one page or one screenful in length). I post it to our club members (about 200) and perhaps to FIS members in this case. If there are two more people signing up to be discussants, the three will pick up a date. We usually have our meetings on Wednesdays (The historical Macy Meetings were on Tuesdays.)<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">I hope this message will qualify as "information" for you, i.e., "A difference that makes a difference." Even you are not accepting is this suggestion, it might provoke your thinking too.<br class=""><br class="">Best regards - Jason<br class="">------------------------------------<br class="">Jason Jixuan Hu, Ph.D.<br class="">Independent Research Scholar<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Organizer: Club of REMY: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.clubofremy.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxrglq6IDo$" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">www.clubofremy.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">General Partner: WINTOP Group:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.wintopgroup.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxriq4iqS3$" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">www.wintopgroup.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Introduction:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://drjasonhu.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxrgH_BTRL$" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">https://drjasonhu.com</a><br class="">Wiki Page:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tinyurl.com/JJH008__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxrlCe-_DX$" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">https://tinyurl.com/JJH008</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> <br class="">Video:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tinyurl.com/JJHsprach__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxrsy5UYad$" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">https://tinyurl.com/JJHsprach</a><br class="">office:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:jjh@wintopgroup.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">jjh@wintopgroup.com</a><br class="">mobile:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:jasonthegoodman@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">jasonthegoodman@gmail.com</a><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br class="">Fis mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br class="">----------<br class="">INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br class=""><br class="">Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br class="">Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br class="">Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br class="">----------<br class=""></blockquote></div><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); 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