<div dir="auto">I'm entirely serious. And I suggest a hypothesis: the challenge of defining "definition" and the challenge of defining "information" is essentially the same. </div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, 13:41 Marcus Abundis, <<a href="mailto:55mrcs@gmail.com">55mrcs@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><br clear="all"></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Again, I am reposting a comment from Jason that did not make it to the FIS listserver – so I expect this will NOT be counted against my 2-3 posts allowed each week (which resets on Monday, anyway).</span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Jason – please take steps directly with Pedro to make sure your posts correctly appear on FIS. I will not forward any more of your posts. Thanks!</span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Mark – serious, satire, or humor? I am not sure which you intended . . . but I accept/approve in any case. I think universal (informatic) taxonomy and pedagogy suitably frames the essential need to be addressed.</span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">M!</span></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>From: <strong class="gmail_sendername" dir="auto">Jason Hu</strong> <span dir="auto"><<a href="mailto:jasonthegoodman@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">jasonthegoodman@gmail.com</a>></span><br>Date: Sun, Dec 15, 2024 at 12:57 PM<br>Subject: Re: [Fis] Various Thoughts . . .<br>To: Mark Johnson <<a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>><br>Cc: Marcus Abundis <<a href="mailto:55mrcs@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">55mrcs@gmail.com</a>>, fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>, Jason Cheung <<a href="mailto:jcheung889@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">jcheung889@gmail.com</a>><br></div><br><br><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size:large">Dear Mark,</div><div style="font-size:large">A definition is an explanation of a term/word/concept that describes a phenomenon emerging in the cognitive systems of a group of people. Two features of it must be highlighted: (1) it is cognitive-system based; (2) it is group consensus-based.</div><div style="font-size:large">Therefore, to define something, we must first "see it," i.e., cognition, and second, "we"(the group or the community) must "build a consensus." Thus, it is natural that people argue because a consensus has yet to emerge due to the diversity of cognitive system differences within the group, and the group might be enlarging.</div><div style="font-size:large">Best - Jason </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Dec 15, 2024 at 4:39 AM Mark Johnson <<a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto">Dear all,</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I think both FIS and the Club of Remy have provided plenty of examples of the problem. I agree with Jason that video can help because we get to "know" the people involved better. That's important because we use our technical words always in a relational context.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div>But I wonder if it is perhaps necessary to define "definition" first. (And we might find we cannot do that either!) Might not the difficulty in defining "information" sit in controversy as to what a definition is? That is relational too...<div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Best wishes</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Mark</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, 10:57 Marcus Abundis, <<a href="mailto:55mrcs@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">55mrcs@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div style="font-size:large">Hey Jason – it looks like your post did NOT make it to the FIS listerserver (as far as I can tell). Are you actually *enrolled* in the FIS group? While I think anyone can READ FIS posts, I think you need to actually enroll on FIS to make FIS posts. Regardless, I have copied your message below for others to read.</div><div style="font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-size:large">Also, while I appreciate your bringing this alternate venue to our attention (assuming you enroll and repost) . . . what *I* had in mind for collaboration was much more limited/narrow in the called upon number of contributors. The more-open approach your venue seems to suggest will (I think – yes, I read the description) only marginally improve on the current situation. What I had in mind, and what I think is called for is a much narrower actively collaborative document (many venues for this exist) that is later commented on by the larger FIS group.</div><br clear="all"></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-size:14px;font-family:proxima-nova-1,proxima-nova-2,Tahoma,Helvetica,Verdana,sans-serif;vertical-align:baseline;border-spacing:0px;color:rgb(51,51,51);line-height:18px"><tbody style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><tr style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><td style="padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-size:0px;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;width:auto;height:30px"> </td></tr><tr style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><td style="padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;width:auto"><div style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;line-height:0"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://about.me/marcus.abundis?promo=email_sig__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxrmx3jEeO$" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(43,130,173);text-decoration:none;display:inline-block" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;border-spacing:0px"><tbody style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><tr style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><td align="left" valign="top" style="padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:top;width:auto;line-height:1"><img alt="--" width="0" height="0" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;display:block;width:0px;height:0px;overflow:hidden"><div style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-weight:bold;font-style:inherit;font-size:18px;font-family:proxima-nova-1,Proxima-Nova,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;vertical-align:baseline;line-height:1;color:rgb(51,51,51)">Marcus Abundis</div><div style="margin:3px 0px 0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-size:12px;font-family:proxima-nova-1,Proxima-Nova,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;vertical-align:baseline"><img alt="http://" width="0" height="0" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;display:block;width:0px;height:0px;overflow:hidden">about.me/marcus.abundis</div></td></tr><tr style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><td align="left" valign="top" style="padding:8px 0px 0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:top;width:auto;line-height:1"><div style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;text-align:right;background-color:rgb(197,208,224);height:4px"><img src="http://d13pix9kaak6wt.cloudfront.net/signature/colorbar.png" alt="" width="88" height="4" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;float:right;display:block"></div></td></tr></tbody></table></a> </div></td></tr><tr style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><td style="padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-size:0px;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;width:auto;height:20px"><br></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div></div></div></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">On Sun, Dec 15, 2024 at 6:35 AM Jason Hu <<a href="mailto:jasonthegoodman@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">jasonthegoodman@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>Dear Marcus and All,<br><br>I have been observing these conversations for a few weeks and see the pain of some of you struggling from individual cognition towards possible collective cognition or from individual wisdom towards some kind of collective wisdom, a very difficult task indeed. (Quote Marcus: "a very sore point and extraordinarily chronic – to the point of even inspiring too many odd/unhelpful/egoic insults and attacks..., ...How shall we proceed? ..., ...this goal might be best pursued by 2-3? committed (BEST QUALIFIED, non-egoic ‘fair witnesses’) individuals most likely equal to the task- perhaps working on a collaborative online document . .")<br><br>My suggestion is that you can consider upgrading your mode of conversation from text email into face-to-face online meetings. Let me introduce you the platform of Club of Remy (sometimes called Mini-Macy-Meetings or "M cube.") <br><br>"Mini" because we hold a discussion session if there are three colleagues interested in a same or similar topic, e.g., "How do we define information?" (Historical Macy Meetings had about thirty participants, so we are 1/10 in size) Each person prepare 7 PPT slides to highlight his/her points, to be presented on the meeting. So that will take the first hour. In the second hour, the three discussants engage into a deep "meeting of the minds." Audience are welcome but not neccessary, they can joing the discussion or just listen. The whole process is recorded and upload to YouTube for later viewers. Simple, effective, powerful.<br><br>The Club of Remy website introduce this process in detail: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://clubofremy.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxri_Z2AF1$" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://clubofremy.org</a> <br>You can find our video recordings here: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://YouTube.com@clubofremy/videos__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxrtf2zoXm$" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://YouTube.com@clubofremy/videos</a><br> <br>Interested colleagues can send me a Title-Abstract-Outline of the topic you want to discuss (one page or one screenful in length). I post it to our club members (about 200) and perhaps to FIS members in this case. If there are two more people signing up to be discussants, the three will pick up a date. We usually have our meetings on Wednesdays (The historical Macy Meetings were on Tuesdays.) <br><br>I hope this message will qualify as "information" for you, i.e., "A difference that makes a difference." Even you are not accepting is this suggestion, it might provoke your thinking too.<br><br>Best regards - Jason<br>------------------------------------<br>Jason Jixuan Hu, Ph.D.<br>Independent Research Scholar <br>Organizer: Club of REMY: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.clubofremy.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxrglq6IDo$" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">www.clubofremy.org</a> <br>General Partner: WINTOP Group: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.wintopgroup.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxriq4iqS3$" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">www.wintopgroup.com</a> <br>Introduction: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://drjasonhu.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxrgH_BTRL$" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://drjasonhu.com</a><br>Wiki Page: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tinyurl.com/JJH008__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxrlCe-_DX$" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://tinyurl.com/JJH008</a> <br>Video: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tinyurl.com/JJHsprach__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UWQW0t9Ug0Bgiwpkm9jAz71kXj__qyALTdskOQ-T9rcqwpf_Ln3ImgzfB1mGxBwWQr31aKLxrsy5UYad$" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://tinyurl.com/JJHsprach</a><br>office: <a href="mailto:jjh@wintopgroup.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">jjh@wintopgroup.com</a><br>mobile: <a href="mailto:jasonthegoodman@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">jasonthegoodman@gmail.com</a><br></div></div></div></div>
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