<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><br><p style="margin:0px;text-indent:29.4px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(26,26,26)"><font size="4"><span class="gmail_default">Dear </span><span style="text-indent:29.4px">Xueshan<span class="gmail_default">, </span></span></font></p><p style="margin:0px;text-indent:29.4px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(26,26,26)"><font size="4"><span style="text-indent:29.4px"><br></span></font></p><p style="margin:0px;text-indent:29.4px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(26,26,26)"><font size="4"><span style="text-indent:29.4px">Thanks for your interesting post<span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">.</span></span></font></p>
<p style="margin:0px;text-indent:29.4px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(26,26,26);min-height:17px"><font size="4"><br></font></p>
<p style="margin:0px;text-indent:29.4px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(26,26,26)"><font size="4">I wonder if a term ‘inforware’ is truly needed, where ‘information/informatic domain’ mostly covers the same, including material substrates — to ‘discuss’ material substrates is to ALREADY make ‘matter’, abstract. Only <span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">truly-</span>direct material experience conveys anything different.<span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"> Otherwise, I think inventing (unnecessary?) terms can confuse things, rather than clarify.</span></font></p>
<p style="margin:0px;text-indent:29.4px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(26,26,26);min-height:17px"><font size="4"><br></font></p>
<p style="margin:0px;text-indent:29.4px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(26,26,26)"><font size="4"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">For example, </span>I have found it more useful to differentiate between *informatic treatment* of ‘matter-in-itself’ (carbon and oxygen atoms, etc.) in contrast to ‘matter <span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">specifically used to </span>encod<span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">e</span> information’ (HDD bits, DNA, etc.) I think <span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"></span>b<span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">oth</span> can be treated in ‘informatic terms’, but as ‘differed levels of abstraction’. I have the same reaction to <span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">notions of </span>communication, computation, semiotics, cybernetics, adaption, etc. — <span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">I believe, </span>simply differed levels of abstraction<span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"></span> that must be closely mapped in informatic terms. This<span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"> notion of</span> ‘levels of abstraction’ dates back to Alfred Korzybski, predating Shannon’s model. In fact, I wonder if your named ‘clouds’ actually attempt to ‘map levels of abstraction’ (without calling it that). Even your cloud 5 seems to suggest such a unified informatic mapping approach.</font></p>
<p style="margin:0px;text-indent:29.4px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(26,26,26);min-height:17px"><font size="4"><br></font></p>
<p style="margin:0px;text-indent:29.4px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(26,26,26)"><font size="4">Your ‘*’ an ‘**’ notes seem to suggest ‘some things’ CAN be treated informatically, and ‘other things’ CANNOT be treated informatically? What EXACTLY is the difference between the two? Is that what you really think, or did you have something else in mind?</font></p>
<p style="margin:0px;text-indent:29.4px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(26,26,26);min-height:17px"><font size="4"><br></font></p>
<p style="margin:0px;text-indent:29.4px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(26,26,26)"><font size="4">Lastly, of course you likely already know of my own Theory of Meaning [ToM] (presented <span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">at </span>IS4SI 2021, and in the upcoming Mark Brugin memorial book) that covers many of the issues you raise<span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"> here</span>, but which many FIS members oddly seem to hope to ignore. I am never sure how to respond to this – other than to refer people to the latest version of papers I <span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"></span>work on . . . but <span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">now </span>targeting AI communities. The current draft is being revised for the <span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">upcoming </span>International Conference on Learning Representation<span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">s</span><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"></span>, so the last 2 pages are<span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"> presently in</span> a <span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">bit of a </span>jumble, awaiting completion<span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"> (end December): </span></font><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://drive.google.com/file/d/11r5LHrzAV2wAPXAPbEMxO58GuTR48hdP/view?usp=share_link__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QIGgryqf5nNEFVwrfy4r6VvwIrWH9wDQ6pNZtfPlGgan824tiyVQMLWwAXpdyEfnYpXOV0jLgXUxR6OC$">A Simplified A Priori Theory of Meaning</a>. But the prior 6 pages I think plainly address what you raise herein, while later pages address 'further AI issues'.</span></span></p><p style="margin:0px;text-indent:29.4px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(26,26,26)"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></span></span></p><p style="margin:0px;text-indent:29.4px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(26,26,26)"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts.</span></span></p><p style="margin:0px;text-indent:29.4px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(26,26,26)"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><br></span></span></p><p style="margin:0px;text-indent:29.4px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(26,26,26)"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Marcus</span></span></p></div></div></div>