<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Quantum 2024 11 22<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Dear Thomas,</span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Thank you for bringing
up the subject of "quantum" as an idea and procedure. Please allow me
to comment from the viewpoint of a psychologist (biologist) on the concept. First,
let me show limits of practicability of the idea. Then, we return to
Wittgenstein and establish how the meaning of a word is arrived at and how the logical
truth is understood to mean the congruence of a mental pattern (devised by us) with
a numeric pattern (as the gauge on which to measure whether we had reasoned
correctly). The constructive part of this essay proposes using numeric patterns
as blueprints of mental patterns, even if we may as of today not have produced
that mental pattern which fits smugly with a practical numeric pattern. <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">1.
Inapplicability of the concept quantum for solving my problem<span></span></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">The problem FIS deals
with centers around the concept "information". In terms of background,
some of the Learned Friends have been raised in the context of biology while
other Learned Friends had a stem education. If I understand you right, quantum
is an invention by the stem people, and you propose to use the concept to come
nearer to a satisfying general picture of how Nature manages relationships
among parts of wholes. <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">The idea that biologists
should familiarize themselves with and use the concept of quanta so that both
sides of the old trivial-quadrivial conflict possess a common intellectual
unit, this suggestion is comparable to the idea that biologists suggest to stem
people to use the concept of the mirror relation of lust and hangover because
that perspective is really useful in understanding the behavior of animals.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">This is not to say that
quantum as a concept would be wrong or false. It is simply not applicable in
biology. Not because of its peculiarities but because of the generality of its
generation. <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Let me state the problem
as biologists see it: we see that an animal lives. We have no stem words to
describe what we mean by the word "lives". So, we have a state of the
world that a picture that exists in my head can't be described by me, because
the mechanics of life have not yet been explicated to me, so I can't build
sentences to communicate about a clear and explicit content of my head. <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Both the pictures of the
living animal, and of the lexicon are in my head. I have an inner conflict,
because one part of my head has no words to describe what a different part of
my head perceives. (It was hypothesized that natives were helpless vis a vis
the conquistadores, because in the lexicon of the natives such a structure that
swims on water and of which people emerge, was not existing, so thinking broke
down, confronted by something that was impossible to exist.) <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Quantum is understood to
be a property of the things that are outside of my head. Now we come to the
conflict. Experience shows that it is in the best case a symptomatic improvement
if a person who is laboring with inner conflicts, is offered a reinforcement
that deals with the outside world. <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">It doesn't help me at
all, with my problem of not finding the correct words to describe biology, if
more and more detailed yellow stickers are picked onto diverse parts of the
whole, of which the interaction of the parts I have a problem with. In the elephant
example, it is of no use to amass measurements of trunk, feet, belly and ears,
if I fail to build a general picture of how these parts fit together.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">This is the reason why
this person is very reticent to embrace the idea of quantum. From the outside,
it is not clear whether quantum is today's stone of wisdom, Phlogiston, ether,
Wotan's odem or highly refined snake oil. The concept of quantum asserts to
depict relations among objects that are outside of my head. <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">What I need is an
explanation that relates to the inability of one part of my head to describe
intelligently that what a different part of my head sees clearly. I have no
problem with how things interact outside. I have a problem with understanding
myself, how come that I find no words for something that I see to exist. I will
overcome the limitations of my vocabulary, not that of my faculties of
observation. If I don’t understand the general principle of the contraption, getting
into more details is usually only of limited value. We need to investigate how
words are checked for meaning something in a grammatically true fashion.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">2. How we check that our words refer to that concept
which we intend to refer to<span></span></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Wittgenstein would have been an adept of Shannon and his hardcore
followers, had he lived after Shannon. The idea of information processing being
<i>au fond</i> an identification of an element of <b>N</b> is included in
Wittgenstein’s reasoning about the correct grammar of using well-defined words
in a sentence that is interpersonally understandable. <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Wittgenstein’s steps of reasoning go:<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Word → remove connotations → arrive at denotation → establish relations of denotation of word to
other denotations of words → check if relations among words agree to relations
among other words that are definitely true (in practice, use numbers as sources
of correct relations) → if the relations among the words are in agreement with
the relations that are known to be true, the sentence is grammatically correct.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">If we simplify our concepts into
bundles/clusters of numeric relations (1) and compare this pattern of relations
to patterns of relations we find or create by counting, then in case the
comparison yields positive, the mental concept is reasonable. (If it
calculates, it may be something useful. If the numbers do not add up, forget it,
that won’t work in no case anyway.) (1) My transaction today at the supermarket
paying for groceries by card is a bundle/cluster of numeric relations. This is
one word of the sentence describing me, the supermarket, the groceries and the
bank. The words of the sentence fit together, obeying a numeric pattern: the
sentence is grammatically correct. Every word of this sentence answers to the
requirements for that word and means exactly that what it is expected to mean.
(In this sense, the sentence contains no information, as nothing is otherwise
than expected.)<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">3. Proposal: Turn the procedure on its head<span></span></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">We check whether our ideas have merit by confronting them with the
truths the natural numbers contain in themselves. The natural numbers are the
roots and the stem of the system of true relations. From the simple come the
composite who begot the differences who begot the similarities and the
probabilities and the combinations and the certitude. Of that apple, which
later fell down, to Newton’s great delight, of certitude we homo sapiens have
created logic and numbers and relations.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Why don’t we just dig out the tree of relations, turn it over and give
it a good shakeup? The canopy of the tree of natural numbers is a habitat for
many numeric patterns. If we need a common, very versatile and small building
block, why not take such that grow in that tree, with which we anyway compare
all that we produce for checking whether it is grammatically correct? <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Wittgensteins direction: create coherent ideas. Check if the rules of
the coherence agree to rules of coherence which we know to be true. <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Update 21<sup>st</sup> century: use the set of relation we know to be
true and subject them to axiomatic ongoing changes. In this way, anything that can
happen in an ordered world will appear in the produced patterns. <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(If I produce ideas, I can check whether the structure of my ideas
agrees to structures that can be found among the structures that I have learnt
to be true. Now we change direction, take the rule book and mix all the rules.
We are interested in the resulting convolutum of rules. Which rules are sticky
with which other rules?)<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">4. Are these quantum amounts?<span></span></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Doing an exercise <i>en vogue</i> in FIS, ordering any 12 books from
author-title into title-author and retour, one wonders what words are in use for
the different kinds of impacts, voids, speeds and holes and one missing and one
double of the romantic relations (called aforetimes “cycles”) among books that
share that they are <i>in transit together
in one closed sequence.</i> <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">One level further up, cycles running parallel have inevitably some predictable
patterns of coincidences. That such-and-such are regularly together although
they belong to different cycles is an <i>offset bondage</i> that is not covered
by the definition of simple romantic relations. That the coincidence takes
place is a predictor for many different, seemingly temporally, materially and
spatially distant occurrences. The knowledge about <b>αβ ↔ γδ</b> taking place is equivalent with the expectations of how
many cycles are running, how many places are empty and what size the bump each
cycle carries on average. These are sets of <i>expectations
</i>against which the <i>observations </i>deviate,
yielding the extent of <i>information. </i><span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">To summarize:<span></span></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">One way is to think something up and look whether the numbers confirm it.
The way proposed here, which technology of our age now permits, is to filter
out the most obvious numeric patterns the system produces if we make it undergo
perpetual changes. The bet is that the numeric patterns we harvest will need
only to find each a good name for, because the idea as such is by definition
sound.<span></span></span></p></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Am Di., 19. Nov. 2024 um 17:18 Uhr schrieb Prof. Dr. Thomas Görnitz <<a href="mailto:goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de">goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Dear Everyone,<br>
as Eric wrote:<br>
“Emotions are involved in the construction of what is perceived and <br>
thought to be possible.”<br>
<br>
From my point of view, this shows how important the “physics of <br>
possibilities”, namely quantum theory, is for an understanding of <br>
mental processes in general.<br>
<br>
The quantization of a bit means that all intermediate stages are <br>
possible between the two possible measurement results “yes” and “no” ( <br>
two-dimensional Hilbert space).<br>
<br>
The abundance of possibilities that arise is the precise essence of <br>
the coupling of psyche and body in the case of emotions.<br>
(Possible literature on this, unfortunately so far only in German:<br>
Thomas Görnitz, Brigitte Görnitz (2016) Von der Quantenphysik zum <br>
Bewusstsein/Kosmos, Geist und Materie, Heidelberg, Springer,<br>
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.springer.com/de/book/9783662490815__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XUku6GUw-2Jt5xqaYi_xpi9JIZIwOqI_n703EIPUtlG0h_CjOKVUDj1dZFzqp3h9yTbhTo-oNjOy1L6K-fMDm4rjc-jzeA$" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.springer.com/de/book/9783662490815__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XUku6GUw-2Jt5xqaYi_xpi9JIZIwOqI_n703EIPUtlG0h_CjOKVUDj1dZFzqp3h9yTbhTo-oNjOy1L6K-fMDm4rjc-jzeA$</a> <br>
Thomas Görnitz: Quantentheorie verstehen/Grundlegende Vorstellungen <br>
und Begriffe, (2. Ed. 2024) Hanser, München,<br>
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.hanser-fachbuch.de/fachbuch/artikel/9783446480261__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XUku6GUw-2Jt5xqaYi_xpi9JIZIwOqI_n703EIPUtlG0h_CjOKVUDj1dZFzqp3h9yTbhTo-oNjOy1L6K-fMDm4p-y_CLog$" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.hanser-fachbuch.de/fachbuch/artikel/9783446480261__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XUku6GUw-2Jt5xqaYi_xpi9JIZIwOqI_n703EIPUtlG0h_CjOKVUDj1dZFzqp3h9yTbhTo-oNjOy1L6K-fMDm4p-y_CLog$</a> )<br>
<br>
In contrast to the AI that currently exists, the self-stabilizing <br>
information processing in all living organisms is not electronic, but <br>
chemical. “Chemical” primarily means “purely quantum physical”.<br>
<br>
The chemical basis means that the processing of any property that can <br>
be interpreted by a living organism as meaningful information is <br>
always associated with a change in its material structure: every <br>
thought changes the brain.<br>
<br>
Best wishes<br>
Thomas<br>
<br>
<br>
Quoting Eric Werner <<a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" target="_blank">eric.werner@oarf.org</a>>:<br>
<br>
> Dear Kate,<br>
><br>
> A bit late, but some brief reactions.<br>
><br>
> Most emotions don't seem to be binary. They drive us and influence <br>
> our perception, thought, intentions and execution of our strategies. <br>
> They even cover what we think is our capacity to act in world. <br>
> Emotions are much more than run or attack. There are so many subtle <br>
> mixtures of love and hate, of liking and not liking, of trepidation <br>
> and courage.<br>
><br>
> Emotions are involved in the construction of what is perceived and <br>
> thought to be possible.<br>
><br>
> -Eric<br>
><br>
> On 11/7/24 11:02 PM, Katherine Peil wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Hi Peter,<br>
>><br>
>> I’ve only been able to pop in occasionally, but I find your <br>
>> thoughts on feedback to be highly relevant to many of the big open <br>
>> questions. Not only “information” but agency, cognition, creativity <br>
>> and the structure of “identity” itself (something that our best <br>
>> hard science theory does not address.)<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> At the beginning of the year, I led a discussion herein where I <br>
>> suggested that the /emotional system/ was central to our <br>
>> “self-regulatory” hardware (genetic, epigenetic and immune <br>
>> regulation). In this view, binary feelings (pleasurable or painful, <br>
>> eustress or distress) serve as cybernetic feedback signals – <br>
>> informative software - that originate in the non-equilibrium <br>
>> dynamics of complex adaptive systems (those that must constantly <br>
>> exchange energy and resources with their local environment in order <br>
>> to exist). I cited a four step cybernetic control loop instantiated <br>
>> by a coupling between bottom up positive (amplifying) feedback and <br>
>> top-down negative (homeostatic) feedback that works like this: 1) <br>
>> An ongoing /comparison/ is made between internal and external <br>
>> environments; 2) A /signal/ is sent when self-relevant mismatches <br>
>> occur; which 3) triggers a coupled /self-correcting response/, <br>
>> which is then 4) /fed back/ as a memory into the next cycle <br>
>> “comparison”. (AI uses a similar arrangement for deep neural <br>
>> learning networks, by comparing two probability distributions that <br>
>> compare internal requirements and external circumstances, modelling <br>
>> mismatches as free energy – “surprises” to the system - wherein <br>
>> learning occurs the via the goal of reducing free energy.)<br>
>><br>
>> But as living systems, we have direct experience of a binary <br>
>> feedback signal as emotional sensory qualia – self-regulatory <br>
>> surprises that come in feel-good or feel-bad categories and are <br>
>> coupled to approach or avoidant self-correcting behavioral <br>
>> responses. I call these binary qualia the /fundamental semantic <br>
>> information bit, /for their binary categories drive each step in <br>
>> the loop and set the stage for all Pavlovian learning.<br>
>><br>
>> This loop, and its subjective binary hedonic driver, is central to <br>
>> the operational, organizational and informational closure of <br>
>> complex self-organizing and autopoietic systems, and it is central <br>
>> to the ongoing construction of the enactive “mind”. It enables an <br>
>> identity structure that behaves as a dance of both parts and <br>
>> wholes, an autonomous yet collective agent, both determined yet <br>
>> with minor participation, in ways that mediate both being and <br>
>> becoming. And so much more…<br>
>><br>
>> Sorry for the quick core dump, but I thought I’d pop in to applaud <br>
>> Peter’s inquiry and say hi to you all!<br>
>><br>
>> Katherine Kauffman<br>
>><br>
>> (Kung Fu Kate)<br>
>><br>
>> *From: *Fis <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>> on behalf of <br>
>> <a href="mailto:fis-request@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-request@listas.unizar.es</a> <<a href="mailto:fis-request@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-request@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, November 6, 2024 at 7:40 PM<br>
>> *To: *<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a> <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
>> *Subject: *Fis Digest, Vol 116, Issue 8<br>
>><br>
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>> Today's Topics:<br>
>><br>
>> 1. Re: Fwd: Re: New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback<br>
>> (Peter Erdi)<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>> Message: 1<br>
>> Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2024 02:39:45 +0000<br>
>> From: Peter Erdi <<a href="mailto:Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu" target="_blank">Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu</a>><br>
>> To: Pedro C. Mariju?n <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>>,<br>
>> "<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>" <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
>> Subject: Re: [Fis] Fwd: Re: New Discussion Session--Complexity &<br>
>> feedback<br>
>> Message-ID:<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:BY5PR12MB39852EDD96A4B026324DCA5EF35C2@BY5PR12MB3985.namprd12.prod.outlook.com" target="_blank">BY5PR12MB39852EDD96A4B026324DCA5EF35C2@BY5PR12MB3985.namprd12.prod.outlook.com</a>><br>
>><br>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br>
>><br>
>> Thank you, Pedro, for your thoughtful post. I hope some people will <br>
>> react, and we will kick the ball towards some goal. Alternatively, <br>
>> the discussion might evolve by random mutations.<br>
>><br>
>> By the way, Gordana and Sheri: more thoughts about the relationship <br>
>> between cybernetics and complex systems theory with evolution?<br>
>><br>
>> Peter<br>
>> ________________________________<br>
>><br>
>><br>
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>> ----------<br>
>> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
>><br>
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>> ----------<br>
> -- <br>
> /Dr. Eric Werner, FLS<br>
> Oxford Advanced Research Foundation<br>
> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!R-Gi37vuYLoUksqZFW0zHvoDcMrSEa9O7hXZuPDmD02RM8Q1aJhZ0z9PSXhDtRXoYNBYNRsPyBzQpvb5NZrIzJ0$" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!R-Gi37vuYLoUksqZFW0zHvoDcMrSEa9O7hXZuPDmD02RM8Q1aJhZ0z9PSXhDtRXoYNBYNRsPyBzQpvb5NZrIzJ0$</a> <br>
> /<br>
<br>
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Prof. Dr. Thomas Görnitz<br>
Fellow of the INTERNATIONAL ACADEMY OF INFORMATION STUDIES<br>
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Fachbereich Physik<br>
J. W. Goethe-Universität Frankfurt/Main<br>
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