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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Peter and FIS Colleagues,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Just some addition to the Meandering
pathways or the Borges' garden of bifurcating paths... I will try
to be brief.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Communication is the most massive way
of creating and maintaining feedbacks among behaving individuals
within society--can we accept that? In a similar way, in the
biological world, cellular signaling systems constitute the
massive communication tools of the cells arranged into
organisms... propelling evolutionary changes and culminating in
the evolution of nervous systems. The point is that, socially, as
ways of communication have changed, societies have entered in deep
processes of change, in thinking and political revolutions often.
Let us think on the enormous historical influence of changes via
tablets, papyri, parchment and codices, printed books, steam
engine communications, electricity communications... Socially,
one of the most serious concerns in this epoch is about the
pervasive influence of the new media & social networks. One of
the coincidences is that the "counterculture" around the
middle/peak of the 1970s was launched by the first generation
"taught" and "matured" via TV... Around the middle/peak of the
2010s came to the fore the first generation "taught" and "matured"
via social networks. A new form of establishing common
generational goals and communication styles was born (as Sherry
Turkle has put, abhorring face-to-face exchanges, texting and
texting, and engaging in closed "identity" circles). <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">A classic to inspect is <i>Information
Ages: Literacy, Numeracy, and the Computer Revolution. By
Michael E. Hobart and Zachary S. Schiffman. Baltimore: Johns
Hopkins University Press, 1998</i>. Unfortunately their analysis
stops with the Internet. A nice review of this book (too long to
be copied here) can be found at
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236795169_Information_Ages_Literacy_Numeracy_and_the_Computer_Revolution_review__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XpKEOaXbk6i5Dt77SpTlxudcceLKWL3PJ1L3Rc5acbP4bIVA8OBgLkHUD9DNtZc7xlMDhUKiIkzW6tXU_Y41ZeA8Tq1B$">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236795169_Information_Ages_Literacy_Numeracy_and_the_Computer_Revolution_review</a><br>
</div>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">And that's all!<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">--Pedro</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">El 11/11/2024 a las 3:21, Peter Erdi
escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:BY5PR12MB3985C490943ED6E7D3BA2C78F3582@BY5PR12MB3985.namprd12.prod.outlook.com">
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Dear All,</div>
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Initially, I worried there would be fewer posts than we
expected.</div>
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Now, we walk on a meandering pathway and see exotic flowers of
the branching ideas.</div>
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<br>
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I will wait several more days before I try to summarize the
discussion.</div>
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All the best,</div>
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Peter</div>
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<br>
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<hr style="display: inline-block; width: 98%;">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><span
style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>From:</b> Mark
Johnson <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com"><johnsonmwj1@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 8, 2024 8:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>;
Kate Peil <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com"><ktpeil@outlook.com></a>; Peter Erdi
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu"><Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 116, Issue 8</span>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Dear Kate, Peter, all</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Re. the "emotional system", this
presentation I gave to Liverpool's Music Research group might
help in clarifying the epigenetic position I was trying to
articulate earlier:
<a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/fFKZYN1pigE?feature=shared__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!U6g4FFeIrpAYGdRXg5v5Z-y9pVAIICX2-JLQTfcjPK4cr7eKNFwthjUW-c-SL-w6_VsPooFEtY2piMdn02FN9Kvz$"
id="OWA69db39b7-e34f-f78f-6664-262e5d288d93"
class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable"
moz-do-not-send="true">
https://youtu.be/fFKZYN1pigE?feature=shared</a></div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Starting from Suzanne Langer's view
that music is a "language of emotion", a number of key questions
follow, particularly with regard to musical agency, biology and
physics. My presentation draws attentions to the "leaning" note
at the beginning of Schumann's piano piece "Vogel als prophet"
(whether that note is really an appoggiatura or something else
is a bit of a moot point!), but the real issue is that it
"leans" - so gravity is involved... is the "leaning"
metaphorical or is it causal in terms of biology and physics? I
argue for the latter.</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">So this hinges on the science of
perception, and gravity's role in perception, and the deep
structure of the universe. It might be that Penrose is right in
implicating gravity in quantum consciousness, or Torday in
implicating gravity in evolution and consciousness, etc. But
then there is the whole question of the constitution of
totality, and whether (as I suspect), Peter Rowlands's
"niltpotent" view of totality is powerful in articulating a
dimensioned reality of "nothing", of which we have a limited
grasp, and so much act and "construct time" through
musical/emotional acting...</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">What's the emotional acting about?
John Torday and Bill Miller would say its about gathering
epigenetic marks to take back to the zygote - the "phenotype as
agent" argument I mentioned earlier...</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Best wishes,</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Mark </div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">On Thu, 7 Nov 2024 at 22:03,
Katherine Peil <<a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com"
id="OWAa1432d6a-75bb-7ff4-a98f-0101ba2f1a1b"
class="OWAAutoLink moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">ktpeil@outlook.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote
style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);">
<p style="direction: ltr;"><span
style="font-family: "Avenir Next", sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Hi
Peter,</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr;"><span
style="font-family: "Avenir Next", sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">I’ve
only been able to pop in occasionally, but I find your
thoughts on feedback to be highly relevant to many of the
big open questions. Not only “information” but agency,
cognition, creativity and the structure of “identity” itself
(something that our best hard science theory does not
address.)</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr;"><span
style="font-family: "Avenir Next", sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><br>
At the beginning of the year, I led a discussion herein
where I suggested that the
<i>emotional system</i> was central to our “self-regulatory”
hardware (genetic, epigenetic and immune regulation). In
this view, binary feelings (pleasurable or painful, eustress
or distress) serve as cybernetic feedback signals –
informative software - that originate in the
non-equilibrium dynamics of complex adaptive systems (those
that must constantly exchange energy and resources with
their local environment in order to exist). I cited a four
step cybernetic control loop instantiated by a coupling
between bottom up positive (amplifying) feedback and
top-down negative (homeostatic) feedback that works like
this: 1) An ongoing
<i>comparison</i> is made between internal and external
environments; 2) A <i>signal</i> is sent when self-relevant
mismatches occur; which 3) triggers a coupled
<i>self-correcting response</i>, which is then 4) <i>fed
back</i> as a memory into the next cycle “comparison”. (AI
uses a similar arrangement for deep neural learning
networks, by comparing two probability distributions that
compare internal requirements and external circumstances,
modelling mismatches as free energy – “surprises” to the
system - wherein learning occurs the via the goal of
reducing free energy.)</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr;"><span
style="font-family: "Avenir Next", sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr;"><span
style="font-family: "Avenir Next", sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">But
as living systems, we have direct experience of a binary
feedback signal as emotional sensory qualia –
self-regulatory surprises that come in feel-good or feel-bad
categories and are coupled to approach or avoidant
self-correcting behavioral responses. I call these binary
qualia the
<i>fundamental semantic information bit, </i>for their
binary categories drive each step in the loop and set the
stage for all Pavlovian learning.<br>
<br>
This loop, and its subjective binary hedonic driver, is
central to the operational, organizational and informational
closure of complex self-organizing and autopoietic systems,
and it is central to the ongoing construction of the
enactive “mind”. It enables an identity structure that
behaves as a dance of both parts and wholes, an autonomous
yet collective agent, both determined yet with minor
participation, in ways that mediate both being and becoming.
And so much more…<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr;"><span
style="font-family: "Avenir Next", sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Sorry
for the quick core dump, but I thought I’d pop in to applaud
Peter’s inquiry and say hi to you all!</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr;"><span
style="font-family: "Avenir Next", sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Katherine
Kauffman</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr;"><span
style="font-family: "Avenir Next", sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">(Kung
Fu Kate)</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr;"><span
style="font-family: "Avenir Next", sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<div
id="x_m_-3061229971404699013m_-5612450654650845406mail-editor-reference-message-container">
<div
style="padding: 3pt 0in 0in; border-top: 1pt solid rgb(181, 196, 223);">
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="color: black;"><b>From:
</b>Fis <<a
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id="OWA4a2f5c25-a557-1c6d-8ca7-19f737c79bd8"
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on behalf of <a
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style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"
moz-do-not-send="true">fis-request@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 6, 2024 at 7:40 PM<br>
<b>To: </b><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
id="OWA9a50387c-6899-3401-efb3-e15377471672"
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<b>Subject: </b>Fis Digest, Vol 116, Issue 8</span></p>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Fwd: Re: New Discussion Session--Complexity
& feedback<br>
(Peter Erdi)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2024 02:39:45 +0000<br>
From: Peter Erdi <<a href="mailto:Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu"
id="OWA7e2070b8-c972-c0e9-eb12-18e96fcef9c4"
class="OWAAutoLink moz-txt-link-freetext"
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To: Pedro C. Mariju?n <<a
href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com"
id="OWA2c53950c-05b2-dc5a-9820-c3ecb561a0e6"
class="OWAAutoLink moz-txt-link-freetext"
style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"
moz-do-not-send="true">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>>,<br>
"<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
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Subject: Re: [Fis] Fwd: Re: New Discussion
Session--Complexity &<br>
feedback<br>
Message-ID:<br>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br>
<br>
Thank you, Pedro, for your thoughtful post. I hope some
people will react, and we will kick the ball towards some
goal. Alternatively, the discussion might evolve by
random mutations.<br>
<br>
By the way, Gordana and Sheri: more thoughts about the
relationship between cybernetics and complex systems
theory with evolution?<br>
<br>
Peter<br>
________________________________<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family: "Avenir Book"; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
</div>
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</blockquote>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">--</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Dr. Mark William Johnson</div>
<div style="direction: ltr; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">Faculty of
Biology, Medicine and Health</div>
<div style="direction: ltr; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">University of
Manchester</div>
<div style="direction: ltr; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">Department of
Science Education</div>
<div style="direction: ltr; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">University of
Copenhagen</div>
<div style="direction: ltr; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">Department of
Eye and Vision Science (honorary)</div>
<div style="direction: ltr; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">University of
Liverpool</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Phone: 07786 064505<br>
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Fis mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
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