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Dear All,</div>
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Initially, I worried there would be fewer posts than we expected.</div>
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Now, we walk on a meandering pathway and see exotic flowers of the branching ideas.</div>
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I will wait several more days before I try to summarize the discussion.</div>
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All the best,</div>
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Peter</div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>From:</b> Mark Johnson <johnsonmwj1@gmail.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 8, 2024 8:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> fis@listas.unizar.es <fis@listas.unizar.es>; Kate Peil <ktpeil@outlook.com>; Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 116, Issue 8</span>
<div> </div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">Dear Kate, Peter, all</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">Re. the "emotional system", this presentation I gave to Liverpool's Music Research group might help in clarifying the epigenetic position I was trying to articulate earlier:
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/fFKZYN1pigE?feature=shared__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!U6g4FFeIrpAYGdRXg5v5Z-y9pVAIICX2-JLQTfcjPK4cr7eKNFwthjUW-c-SL-w6_VsPooFEtY2piMdn02FN9Kvz$" id="OWA69db39b7-e34f-f78f-6664-262e5d288d93" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable">
https://youtu.be/fFKZYN1pigE?feature=shared</a></div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Starting from Suzanne Langer's view that music is a "language of emotion", a number of key questions follow, particularly with regard to musical agency, biology and physics. My presentation draws attentions to the "leaning" note
at the beginning of Schumann's piano piece "Vogel als prophet" (whether that note is really an appoggiatura or something else is a bit of a moot point!), but the real issue is that it "leans" - so gravity is involved... is the "leaning" metaphorical or is
it causal in terms of biology and physics? I argue for the latter.</div>
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</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">So this hinges on the science of perception, and gravity's role in perception, and the deep structure of the universe. It might be that Penrose is right in implicating gravity in quantum consciousness, or Torday in implicating gravity
in evolution and consciousness, etc. But then there is the whole question of the constitution of totality, and whether (as I suspect), Peter Rowlands's "niltpotent" view of totality is powerful in articulating a dimensioned reality of "nothing", of which we
have a limited grasp, and so much act and "construct time" through musical/emotional acting...</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">What's the emotional acting about? John Torday and Bill Miller would say its about gathering epigenetic marks to take back to the zygote - the "phenotype as agent" argument I mentioned earlier...</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">Best wishes,</div>
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</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Mark </div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">On Thu, 7 Nov 2024 at 22:03, Katherine Peil <<a href="mailto:ktpeil@outlook.com" id="OWAa1432d6a-75bb-7ff4-a98f-0101ba2f1a1b" class="OWAAutoLink">ktpeil@outlook.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);">
<p style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: "Avenir Next", sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Hi Peter,</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: "Avenir Next", sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">I’ve only been able to pop in occasionally, but I find your thoughts on feedback to be highly relevant to many of the big open questions. Not only “information”
but agency, cognition, creativity and the structure of “identity” itself (something that our best hard science theory does not address.)</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: "Avenir Next", sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><br>
At the beginning of the year, I led a discussion herein where I suggested that the
<i>emotional system</i> was central to our “self-regulatory” hardware (genetic, epigenetic and immune regulation). In this view, binary feelings (pleasurable or painful, eustress or distress) serve as cybernetic feedback signals – informative software - that
originate in the non-equilibrium dynamics of complex adaptive systems (those that must constantly exchange energy and resources with their local environment in order to exist). I cited a four step cybernetic control loop instantiated by a coupling between
bottom up positive (amplifying) feedback and top-down negative (homeostatic) feedback that works like this: 1) An ongoing
<i>comparison</i> is made between internal and external environments; 2) A <i>signal</i> is sent when self-relevant mismatches occur; which 3) triggers a coupled
<i>self-correcting response</i>, which is then 4) <i>fed back</i> as a memory into the next cycle “comparison”. (AI uses a similar arrangement for deep neural learning networks, by comparing two probability distributions that compare internal requirements
and external circumstances, modelling mismatches as free energy – “surprises” to the system - wherein learning occurs the via the goal of reducing free energy.)</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: "Avenir Next", sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: "Avenir Next", sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">But as living systems, we have direct experience of a binary feedback signal as emotional sensory qualia – self-regulatory surprises that come in feel-good or
feel-bad categories and are coupled to approach or avoidant self-correcting behavioral responses. I call these binary qualia the
<i>fundamental semantic information bit, </i>for their binary categories drive each step in the loop and set the stage for all Pavlovian learning.<br>
<br>
This loop, and its subjective binary hedonic driver, is central to the operational, organizational and informational closure of complex self-organizing and autopoietic systems, and it is central to the ongoing construction of the enactive “mind”. It enables
an identity structure that behaves as a dance of both parts and wholes, an autonomous yet collective agent, both determined yet with minor participation, in ways that mediate both being and becoming. And so much more…<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: "Avenir Next", sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Sorry for the quick core dump, but I thought I’d pop in to applaud Peter’s inquiry and say hi to you all!</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: "Avenir Next", sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Katherine Kauffman</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: "Avenir Next", sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">(Kung Fu Kate)</span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: "Avenir Next", sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="color: black;"><b>From: </b>Fis <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" id="OWA4a2f5c25-a557-1c6d-8ca7-19f737c79bd8" class="OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>>
on behalf of <a href="mailto:fis-request@listas.unizar.es" id="OWA7fa482bf-2e48-d65b-162c-9f957515a659" class="OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">
fis-request@listas.unizar.es</a> <<a href="mailto:fis-request@listas.unizar.es" id="OWA5d24727e-4490-b9bf-2718-7e7963576d6e" class="OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">fis-request@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 6, 2024 at 7:40 PM<br>
<b>To: </b><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" id="OWA9a50387c-6899-3401-efb3-e15377471672" class="OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">fis@listas.unizar.es</a> <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" id="OWA0ca8431a-b791-326f-fe2b-e954c17c8240" class="OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Fis Digest, Vol 116, Issue 8</span></p>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Re: Fwd: Re: New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback<br>
(Peter Erdi)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
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Message: 1<br>
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2024 02:39:45 +0000<br>
From: Peter Erdi <<a href="mailto:Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu" id="OWA7e2070b8-c972-c0e9-eb12-18e96fcef9c4" class="OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu</a>><br>
To: Pedro C. Mariju?n <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" id="OWA2c53950c-05b2-dc5a-9820-c3ecb561a0e6" class="OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>>,<br>
"<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" id="OWAac7da7a4-fbd4-d445-f83c-5fdadd6cecf3" class="OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>" <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" id="OWAd06e0a26-8b85-c7a0-7a24-52ae190a64f3" class="OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Fwd: Re: New Discussion Session--Complexity &<br>
feedback<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:BY5PR12MB39852EDD96A4B026324DCA5EF35C2@BY5PR12MB3985.namprd12.prod.outlook.com" id="OWAcf03df0a-d95e-f329-5a07-3a181d2f1604" class="OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">BY5PR12MB39852EDD96A4B026324DCA5EF35C2@BY5PR12MB3985.namprd12.prod.outlook.com</a>><br>
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<br>
Thank you, Pedro, for your thoughtful post. I hope some people will react, and we will kick the ball towards some goal. Alternatively, the discussion might evolve by random mutations.<br>
<br>
By the way, Gordana and Sheri: more thoughts about the relationship between cybernetics and complex systems theory with evolution?<br>
<br>
Peter<br>
________________________________<br>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">--</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Dr. Mark William Johnson</div>
<div style="direction: ltr; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health</div>
<div style="direction: ltr; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">University of Manchester</div>
<div style="direction: ltr; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);"><br>
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<div style="direction: ltr; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">Department of Science Education</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">Department of Eye and Vision Science (honorary)</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">Phone: 07786 064505<br>
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